Here is an example of a 2 element 30 liter kettle...
https://hrafnkell.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/diy-plastic-boil-kettle/
https://hrafnkell.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/diy-plastic-boil-kettle/
Plastic boil kettles (pail)
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augiedoggy
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Despite this 80% rule being mistakenly applied here this rule is actually for continuous duty applications where that load would be applied at 100% for over 3 hours straight... This 80% wouldn't apply to 99% of home brewing applications unless im missing something here?
a 20a breaker with 14g does not meet code and would be a safety hazard for sure.. I believe we are assuming the wiring and breaker configurations in the house are already up to code here?
This is simply not accurate.
And this brings up another reason to avoid plastic buckets with electric elements. You need to ensure the elements are grounding properly. Stainless kettles that are grounded provide immediate paths to ground and will trip GFIs immediately. Plastic buckets could potentially allow for an energized liquid volume, which could easily kill someone who is a conduit to earth ground if they made appropriate contact. Again, can does not equal should.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
be Careful...While I understand the point your trying to make and the application its based on, I made a similar comment which led me down a long drawn out off topic argument that ended up being less about fact and more about how people felt things should be respected and perceived as... Then there was the non practical examples that did not apply to the discussion to be used to prove these different points of view..
EDIT** Too late the ball is rolling..
Amperage is more dangerous than voltage this is true but there are different applications and instances were both 120v or 240v can be more likely to be deadly or not... When we are simply comparing a typical 120v household outlet or appliance to the typical 240v outlet or appliance found in a home the 240v exposure here is GENERALLY likely to be more dangerous can we at least just agree on that so we can move on from this?
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The liquid itself can be grounded with a ground post no?
And even he mentions the armchair wankers who just refuse to get their heads around the fact that just because THEY in their all knowing "wisdom" have never heard of something that LOTS of people around the world are already doing, that maybe they need to STFU about it instead of insisting it won't work.
Reminds me of the very first NO-Chill brewing thread on here, all the "quarterbacks" ignoring the fact that the Aussies have been doing it for 20 or more years and had perfected it long before John Palmer went there, saw what they were doing and wrote about it for BYO... all those folks just so POSITIVE that everyone who was going to do it was going to make Botulism beer. And just refusing to let it go, even when actual Australian brewers were pointing out to them that they'd been doing it forever.
So funny how closed minded some people are...I get excited when I learn how different people and different cultures approach the same issues. Especially when I find out how common that actually may be. Just because I was ignorant of it, doesn't make it wrong, it just means I have more cool crap to learn and to try.
Yes, I suppose. The elements should cover the ground issue, but these are being repurposed, so there is certainly no guarantee they will do their job and protect you. I certainly hope those choosing to use a plastic bucket with electric elements don't skimp further and skip an upstream GFI. That would be Darwinism in waiting.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I shutter to think or how many electric home brewers "Havent gotten around to" installing gfci protection yet... Sadly I believe theres a lot of them here that just dont think its worth their lives because they believe they can prevent any accident where it would save them...
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Well it is human nature to defend what we've learned and believe and defend our own lines we have drawn in the sand. I wouldnt go as far as you too think the the issue is that simple and all black and white and silly to question myself though.
I'm gona play devils advocate here,
Sometimes there is more factors the the big picture than mentioned or brought into the equation.. Like theres the fact that some will/ have take(n) this idea and use it in poorly executed applications like for example a plastic trash that can be made of an unsafe type of plastic thats dyed with an unsafe coloring and made of a plastic that leaches all kinds of **** into their food when heated up... Just because this sort of thing has been done for years and often in say some 3rd world for example and people dont die from it (at least not right away or directly) doesnt make it ok and perfectly acceptable for others? This reasoning can go off topic real quick since things like lead pipes are still successfully used in some poor areas of the world and asbestos was Fine and worked great for years too? Doesnt mean things should never be questioned though..
In the case of installing a heating element in a bucket made of food grade plastic then yeah from what I know I see no reason myself why it should never be considered and doesnt have a practical place.. Buts that just an opinion from the sum of what I believe I know.
There are many things that we do here and consider totally safe that other countries like the Aussies simple dont allow for what they feel is an unnecessary safety or health concern/risk... They simple drew their line in a different area of the sand on the topic...
I just mentioned this in another thread but I learned once that the cereal made here locally in Buffalo by General mills is not allowed to be sold in canada because according to thier laws you would need a prescription from your doctor up there to get it and eat it due to the differences in what they consider safe and healthy ways or accomplishing things.. We go the cheaper route in blanching all the vitamins and minerals from the cereal while making it and spraying on artificially added stuff after its made.. In fact they used to spray so much iron on the total cereal at one time it would actually attract to a magnet if set in a bowl of milk with the total... In Canada they have to use more expensive and more natural processes to make the cereal which prevents having to do all this.. Are they all fools for having higher standards here than us? Would you rather eat real beef or reconstituted pink mush burgers from Mc donalds? I chose to avoid it all together and go to burgerking but it doesnt really make me an armchair wanker. other people concerns over this led to mcdonald rethinking their beef process and improving it despite the law saying they were ok in the states all along..
Someday they will no doubt learn that some of the stuff we do and consider safe now really isnt and that doesnt happen without people challenging and questioning things. just as the use of these buckets with heater were implemented by someone who said why not?
The key is just respecting different views from different people I think.. stepping off soapbox now...
DreBourbon
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augiedoggy
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If you have one thats rated for enough power than yeah. For 240v most people use a 50a spa panel because they are only $60 with the gfci breaker inside... You still need to use the correct size main breaker (example 30a) in the main box feeding the circuit. 20a and 15a 120v gfci outlets are dirt cheap... Ive seen them new for as little as $7...
DreBourbon
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Thanks
Great point augiedoggy!
From my experience, before you get into ANYTHING electrical, plan for failure... I'll say it again for everyone --
PLAN FOR FAILURE
For this application --
1) Get the ~cheap GFCI spa panel (usually rated for 50 amps) to cover your life.
2) Connect in-line and downstream to a 30 amp standard breaker (or more if you require it and you KNOW that) to cover your equipment.
3) Make sure everything is well grounded.
If those 3 things are taken into account and you make a mistake (or your gear just gets used and a leak, boil over, etc. unexpectedly happens), you should still be able to learn from it and fix the problem....
If any of this was confusing to you, I highly recommend reading up on http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/. Kal's setup is definitely high end, but the same safety and wiring principles apply regardless of the bling factor on your equipment.
Hope this helps (and I didn't preach too much)!
The closest we have is the 8 gallon fermenting bucket.
My homebrewshop has them for 20 bucks...I thought I saw on Adventures in homebrewing's site plain ones for 8 bucks apiece.
There's this style from mountain homebrew for 21...
There is also the 10 gallon white rubbermade Brute food grade pails that a lot of homebrewshops sell as wine fermenters, even restaurant supply stores sell them (Momofuku and other restaurants use them to ferment mass quantities of things like Kimchee or hot sauces in them.) I've only seen them in pictures and videos and can't tell if they're rigid like a regular fermenter buckets we use, or "mushy" like the black rubbermade garbage cans.
If they're hard sided I might be leaning towards one of those 10 gallon ones.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
I agree so much! I guess my excuse is, I'm just stubborn and won't believe everything I read or hear, I have to find out for myself haha. I hope this thread continues on, and that many can learn how to build a good working, cheap and safe plastic brewing system.
I had a friend, whom I'd known since we were about 4 years old, die from a 120 volt electric shock when she was only 16. I take safety serious as I'm sure most others on here do too. BUT, it's up to each individual to ensure their system is safe. It's certainly not something to fight about.
I'm anxious to see how some of you end up controlling your systems. I personally would probably start with an external relay on the STC-1000, or build an adjustable PWM circuit that I could drive an SSR with. If your using a single 120 volt heating element, chances are you don't even need any control though. If my math is right, (and it often isn't), a 1500 watt element is going to be pushing the lower end of "will or won't". They do sell 20 amp 120v outlets though, about $4 I think, of coarse if your wiring is adequate you could go that route.
Look forward to reading more!
Terek
"Did I just drop down a rabbit hole?"
then explain. Explain how a 8,000v electric fence gives me a good shock, and nothing else, but a 220v ac can stop my heart? Answer, the fence is .05 amps, the ac is 20 amps
Ohms law.
2 of these would likely boil 6 gallons...lol. Can't get any cheaper lol. On 2 separate GFI circuits for safety sake...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Travel-Coff...936577?hash=item2c9ac18c01:g:sg4AAOSwgQ9Vku5I
Very ghetto, but I would prefer brewing in my basement with these over brewing outside in foul winter weather with propane....jmo.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Travel-Coff...936577?hash=item2c9ac18c01:g:sg4AAOSwgQ9Vku5I
Very ghetto, but I would prefer brewing in my basement with these over brewing outside in foul winter weather with propane....jmo.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The only thing that would concern me with these is if its just the tip that heats up thats going to be a very very high watt density surface (about twice that of the short HWD 120v 1500w water heater elements).. I have seen a thread somewhere here where a person used a short non foldover 120v 1500w element like this length in a rims and the result looked like something that was sitting in the bottom of my gas grill after a year... And that was with good flow across it.. with the tight space between the coils it sure to scorch unless the coils are stretched out ... Id use them for the HLT though. Just not for wort like I believe you suggested in the other thread.
Has anyone used one of these successfully that you know?
How would you mount them? the reason I'm considering stripping down a couple of the tea kettles is that they have everything you need, including the gasket to just drill a hole and mount them...
These remind me of the ones I used in my first ghetto sous-vide setoup using a cooler. I made a "lid" for it with pink foam and just hung everything in.
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
Either this guy is not married, or he waits until his wife leaves the house to use her $5000. quartz countertop as a workbench. If my wife saw me doing this, I would be a dead man.
The heatstick has a length of 13", double that of a HWD 1500w element, I believe your statement of this being double the watt density is incorrect, and it actually appears to have more surface area and less wattage.
If you look at the close up picture of the ebay heatstick, the coils appear to have some clearance between them, I don't see this as a concern at all as wort will easily flow between the coils.
I feel your statement "sure to scorch" is speculation. Your reference to someone who experienced scorching using a HWD element is irrelevant, I believe he was not cleaning his element between brews which led to the scorching. FWIW, there are also reports of scorching from those using ULWD elements, I believe scorching is more of a situation occurrence more so then watt density alone. Yet you keep stating a warning when in fact you admit you have never boiled wort using HWD elements?
Can we please stick to the facts?
Yes, these elements have been used for boiling wort successfully, priceless has used these inexpensive immersion heaters to assist stovetop AG batches.
Of course these $8 shipped immersion heaters are not the best most glamorous solution, but making claims that they will lead to certain failure is unfounded..."sure to scorch" nonsense.
I don't believe priceless experienced any of the problems you listed above, and was satisfied with these inexpensive immersion elements.
I kinda figured. Though I bet someone could figure out a way to mount them down inside like other elements.
The biggest thing, and I know this from experience with handing elements is making sure they are submerged before plugging them in... I burned out quite a few of them by forgetting, that's why I decided to opt for the coffee urn sous vide vessel.
I agree, the kettle elements mounted is a better solution but more work to install.
Removable elements are nice because you can boil and ferment in the same vessel.
Removable elements are nice because you can boil and ferment in the same vessel.
cheesecake
Well-Known Member
and for those of you that don't have a gfci outlet you can always use a gfci plug
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/plug15gfci.htm
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/plug15gfci.htm
jlongstreet
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I've used one of these along with my stovetop for 5.5/6 gallon batches the last few times. I haven't had any scorching problems. I use a cheap Home Depot spring clamp to hold it to the side of the kettle.
That's awesome. I'm gonna order one of those to help bring them to a boil.
IamTheBear
Member
Wondering if anyone has made any progress and real world testing on this. My goal is to setup a semi biab style system that would allow me to make 3 gallon brews easier during the week days.
They are already being used in the "real world."
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Xa9rs9KZI[/ame]
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vH3u8OdS5_A[/ame]
I'm still trying to find the perfect plastic bucket to suit my needs. The trouble is the weather is turning nice and needing one for indoor winter brewing is becoming moot.
Though like you, the idea of saving time during the weekday is intriguing.
I've installed two 1500w heating elements in a large bucke that i'm using for a HLT currently. I haven't decided if I want to use it as a boiling kettle yet, but it might be there eventually. Brings 5 gallons to boil pretty quickly.
sunday I brewed 5.5 gals in a 8 gal fermentation bucket with a 4500 watt hot rod and had no issues with damage to the bucket. The cool thing is I used the same bucket to ferment in, no transfer necessary. I did a test boil with water to see if off flavors could be tasted and am happy to say none were detected.
The bucket was hdpe and was rated for 190f but with much research I saw no evidence to believe boiling in hdpe would leach anything into the wort. Can't wait for this one to ferment out for my first sample.
The bucket was hdpe and was rated for 190f but with much research I saw no evidence to believe boiling in hdpe would leach anything into the wort. Can't wait for this one to ferment out for my first sample.
estricklin
Well-Known Member
For what it's worth I've transferred boiling wort directly into a plastic bucket, and no chilled it. When it reached pitching temp I pitched, it tasted fine. Done it with several batches when I had problems with my wort chiller and hoses.
Nice, good to know.
IamTheBear
Member
I've been on a break from brewing and as always testing new ideas. I no chill as off right now in a plastic water Jerry can so the idea of off flavors is kind of years behind me. My goal in plastic brewing was to be able fill my strike water bucket the night before. When I get home the next day from work before I even go inside was plug in the bucket. Do what I need inside, let the dogs in grab a beer use the bathroom grab my grains. That kind of thing. Biab in a zapap setup, while mashing heat sparge and get ready to recirc. And then boil in my kettle under propane to finish off. 3 gallons should be plausible on a week night that way. Three gallons is better than no gallons after all. This is all to keep within the limits of a 5 gallon pail.
dyqik
Well-Known Member
So, I just boiled 6 gallons of water in my 7.9 gallon fermenting bucket (to help eliminate a possible infection). I used a 2kW Hot Rod as the heat source.
From 140F tap water to boil took about 45 minutes, the last 15 wrapped in a moving blanket. I got a reasonable boil with the bucket lid half to three quarters on. All this in a 58 degree basement.
From 140F tap water to boil took about 45 minutes, the last 15 wrapped in a moving blanket. I got a reasonable boil with the bucket lid half to three quarters on. All this in a 58 degree basement.
I should try doing hot tap next time I do this. Trying it with a 1500 heat stick as my main heat source. I'm looking to upgrade to a 5500w heatstick for my 10 gallon pot, but it heated nicely with the 1500 watt.
dyqik
Well-Known Member
Hot tap water isn't a good idea for brewing with (water heaters tend to concentrate minerals in odd ways, and you can get off tastes in the water), but it's good as a test for raising from mash run-off temperatures to boiling.
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