Pitching additional Roeselare yeast ASAP or pitching it after rack to secondary?

[Zabuza]

So I've decided I didn't add enough Roeselare blend in my most recent 10 gallon batch. I pitched one smack pack (oddly enough, I found a couple threads advocating underpitching) and one of those new purepitch containers of california ale WLP 001 in 1.063 wort. This would be underpitching a bit, I thought, and would be therefore fine. After I pitched, I realized I have a chance to make a really good flanders red and not some california yeast hybrid.

Sounds idiotic I know, but the guy at the homebrew store only had one packet of Roeselare. He was getting in more, but it was after my brewday. I just decided to go with what was there.

I brewed on Tuesday and they have more today, so I'm getting more. Should I:

1) Get it today and pitch immediately? It was bubbling by 2am Tuesday. I think it can still significantly effect how much of the initial sugar is consumed by the Roeselare blend. Definitely will have a big effect on concentration of the wine strains, I think, as their work would be done between now and by the time I do (2).

or

2) Get it later, and pitch when transfering to secondary on oak cubes in ~ 1mo? This will concentrate the amount of Roeselare blend in secondary and aging, which is where Flanders reds get their distinctive character from. It'll also be over a period of 1.5+ years, so there will be a long contact time with a concentrated amount of sour, character-developing, and funkifying bacteria. I did several things to boost complex sugars, so I'm confident they have a lot to chew on.

As always, thank you for any input.

EDIT: Geeze, I mangled that title. "Pitch additional Roeselare blend ASAP or pitch it after racking to secondary?"

 

[m00ps]

The quicker you pitch the additional yeast, the faster the sour character should start to develop

 

[Zabuza]

Once I rack off of primary, a lot of the ale yeast will be left behind. Adding Roeselare in secondary allows me to super-concentrate the amount of souring bacteria that will be in that liquid, and maximize the contact time with that concentration.

You think pitching earlier and ending up with a weaker concentration in secondary will be better? Given how slow acting they were I thought they would be doing most of their work over the long aging process, not the next month.

Can you explain why adding the Roeselare now would create more sour character rather than later when all the dextrins and starch and whatnot are starting to get consumed? I get what you're saying but the latter makes sense to me, too.

 

[m00ps]

Most of the yeast and bacteria that will be dping the souring is insuspension and you cant see it.

IME, if you have a large healthy pitch of your souring blend, it produces sour character much quicker than if you just used the dregs from bottles or something like a single white labs bugs vial.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=543576

 

[Zabuza]

Good stuff, thanks!

 

[Calder]

In my experience, your mistake was pitching the WLP001 in the first place. I'd have just gone with the single pack of Roeselare and let it be. I prefer old packs so that the bugs have time to work before any alcohol is created. You might have been on here panicking that it hadn't started yet, but for me that is a good start for a sour - maybe pitch the WLP001 after 3 or 4 days of no activity.

The blends are designed to have a low cell count of sacc yeast, so that it is slow in starting to give the bugs a little while in sugar rich wort to get going a little before the sacc starts creating alcohol and slows everything down. Adding the WLP001 just cancelled this advantage out for the bugs.

I don't know that there is any wine yeast in there. I think the Sherry is Sherry Flor (or whatever it is), which does not work like a regular yeast.

Add the extra pack whenever you want, it will not make much difference now that the alcohol is present. I'd save it for a different beer.

The best thing you can do is add dregs from a couple of sours with viable bugs to get a larger range of bugs. Roeselare bugs seem to be weak overall, and adding commercial dregs can add complexity. Either way, you have 18 months ahead of you before the beer is ready.

Obviously the earlier you add the dregs/bugs the more time they will have to work, but there is no real urgency to add them, take your time and add them over the next couple of months - but it is a good excuse to drink a couple.

When you rack, you want to take some of the yeast. I usually do it as the fermentation slows down to carry over quite a bit still in suspension. The sacc yeast is food for the brett that is slowly working in the background. I think Lambics are fermented on the cake and Flanders are racked off. I like to have a little which ever I do - I think it helps. You don't need much.