Off Flavor After Conditioning

[slurms]

This is my first post, so bear with me...

I've brewed about 4 or 5 batches (exclusively one gallon) this year so far. Usually an IPA-type of beer but also a porter and two american wheats. Given that I'm fairly new to home brewing, I like the idea of trying the beers weekly after bottling, just to see how the tastes change during conditioning.

For the most part, they all tasted pretty good the first week after bottling, and second week, and for some of them, the third week. However, as they continue to condition, the same taste pops up with all of them, regardless of beer style. From what I can tell, it seems to fit the description of oxidation; it starts to darken, the flavor of the style diminishes and it starts to get a sweetness to it (not sugar sweet like an under attenuated beer).

From what I gathered from looking through forums, oxidation usually presents itself at least 3-4 weeks from bottling (assuming the oxygen is introduced a that time). So, it's possible the change in flavor/color is attributed to this. I use an auto siphon to rack the beer from the carboy to my bottling bucket. I don't put a lid on the bucket since it doesn't take terribly long to bottle the 8 beers, so how much oxygen could really be absorbed into the beer during this time (right?). I've got a metal bottling wand attached to the bucket spigot with a short piece of tubing (2 inches or so) and no bubbles form in the tube and foaming in the bottles is a minimum.

However, I've read some posts that say you pretty much need to pretty much purposely oxygenate (shake the beer, etc.) to really show signs of oxidation, and that would be after weeks in the bottle for it to be present. So then I was thinking, maybe it's not that.

Is it possible that an infection can be introduced at the time of bottling? I'm wondering if there is some unknown scratch in the bottling bucket/spigot that is harboring some type of bacteria. Since it's the same off flavor, it could be caused by the same bacteria. I make sure I get off any crud from any surface the beer will be in contact with and sanitize with StarSan (though, I recently read that StarSan has a shelf life of 1-2 years after opened and admittedly, this is much older than that...).

I guess the last thing it could be is that the beer just needs to condition in the bottle for a longer period. However, I let the porter I brewed sit in the bottle for ~5 weeks and the flavor was more prevalent than ever, which leads me to believe this might not be the case for this off-flavor (the flavor should be improving after that amount of time, right?).

My process has been pretty consistent. After the boil, the wort is poured into a carboy through a funnel and topped off with either a blowoff tube or a 3 piece airlock (everything cleaned and sanitized, of course). Sits in primary for a minimum of 2 weeks (been going for 3 weeks recently) in the basement which is ~65F, racked to the bottling bucket and carefully bottled through the wand (bucket is open to air as I mentioned before, at least I think I mentioned it.). Bottles are stored in the basement until chilled and tasted.

Just a note, this last beer I made (american wheat) was in the primary for 3 weeks and after only one week of conditioning, that flavor was mildly present. After two weeks it was overwhelmingly there... Anyone have any suggestions on what could be going on? Have the same thing happen to them? I'm sure some people will say just to drink them before it happens, but that doesn't get to the cause of the problem.

Sorry for the long post...

 

[Yooper]

The darkening and flavor change are trademarks of oxidation.

How about bottling sooner, once the beer is at FG and is starting to clear? I generally package my beer around day 10 for non-dryhopped beers.

I'd make sure to be as careful as possible when bottling, trying to do a closed transfer as much as possible, and if using an autosiphon to not pump it once it's in the beer, aside from that one push to get it going. That is, extend the racking cane before putting the siphon in the beer, and just push it enough to have the beer flow. Make sure you have enough tubing to lay in a circle at the bottom of the receiving bottling bucket, so it simply swirls a little to mix the priming solution without stirring/mixing/splashing. And cover the bucket if you can, to avoid as much contact with the air as you can.

 

[Yooper]

Just saw you are making one gallon batches- I would figure out a way to avoid a large bottling bucket for sure. Do you have a small bottling bucket? If not, maybe try bottling out of the fermenter.

 

[VikeMan]

However, as they continue to condition, the same taste pops up with all of them, regardless of beer style. From what I can tell, it seems to fit the description of oxidation; it starts to darken, the flavor of the style diminishes and it starts to get a sweetness to it (not sugar sweet like an under attenuated beer).

Yes, that sounds like oxidation.

Is it possible that an infection can be introduced at the time of bottling?

It's possible. But you haven't described anything that sounds like it.

though, I recently read that StarSan has a shelf life of 1-2 years after opened

Where did you read that?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Given that I'm fairly new to home brewing, I like the idea of trying the beers weekly after bottling, just to see how the tastes change during conditioning.

Been brewing for a while and I still like the idea of trying beers weekly after bottling, especially when there's a new recipe or new technique involved.

oxidation

Over the last year, between Homebrew Talk and Reddit's /r/homebrewing, there have been a number of topics on bottling / bottle conditioning NEIPAs. Here are a pair of links from Homebrew Talk that may be of interest:

• Limiting oxidation: effect of purging headspace O2 in a bottle conditioned IPA
• How to bottle NEIPA (without kegging)

 

[mattdee1]

However, I've read some posts that say you pretty much need to pretty much purposely oxygenate (shake the beer, etc.) to really show signs of oxidation, and that would be after weeks in the bottle for it to be present. So then I was thinking, maybe it's not that.

I used to think this, because in my early days of brewing I did just that - I shook up a sample really badly, got it all full of air bubbles, bottled it, and set it aside. After 2 months I drank it side by side with a normal sample, and I couldn't tell them apart. So, I guess that can be taken either of 2 ways:

1) the risks and effects of cold side oxygen are overstated
2) ALL of the beer was oxidized, so tasted pretty much the same

I also had the shaken sample in the fridge, which maybe slowed down the harmful effects enough to make them imperceptible at 2 months. It's also possible that the shaken sample would have started to diverge from the pack given more time, but beyond a certain point I don't really care because most beers don't remain "in stock" long enough in my house for it to matter.

Anyway, nowadays, I'm leaning toward #2 above being the more likely answer. If you have hoppy beers - especially dry-hopped ones where you want those nice, delicate aromas - the oxygen markedly damages them very quickly, as in before you even pour your first proper sample.

The changing color is the most "smoking gun" evidence in favor of oxidation, IMO, but to be honest, I'm a bit surprised that you're seeing that much of a flavor change in such a short amount of time on a style like porter. For me, porters and stouts have been very forgiving styles in terms of how they are impacted by process flaws.

 

[slurms]

How about bottling sooner, once the beer is at FG and is starting to clear? I generally package my beer around day 10 for non-dryhopped beers.

Any reason for taking it off earlier other than just having the beer bottle conditioning sooner? I could see that helping if it's oxidizing in the primary, but it only gets moved to bottle.

Everything during bottling seems to be smooth (no splashing, bubbles). The thing about only pumping the siphon once could be a cause with it. Maybe just figuring out how to siphon with just the tube would be better. I'm using a ~2 or 3 gallon bucket for bottling, seemed to be the smallest at Lowes. Maybe I need a smaller one (or better yet, one of those Camelback water bladders and suck all the air out. Kidding, sorta...).

Where did you read that?

I just googled, says it's good for a few years. Could be a myth, but I just got a new one just to be sure.

Everyone else, thanks for the input. My guess is that it's oxidized and I just need to figure out a better process. Though, I'm holding out for the next brew with new bottling equipment (fingers crossed).

 

[schmurf]

I suggest skipping the bottling bucket, siphon directly from the fermenter to the bottle and use a syringe to add priming sugar to the bottles.

 

[Yooper]

Any reason for taking it off earlier other than just having the beer bottle conditioning sooner? I could see that helping if it's oxidizing in the primary, but it only gets moved to bottle.

The reason for bottling sooner is you're having oxidation problems.

I don't see a reason for letting sit longer, once it's done and starting to clear. I mean, it's not going to get more done. I package my beers around day 10 usually. I make decent beer.

I do think the small batch and the autosiphon and bottling bucket are more responsible, however. The "pump" part of the autosiphon can introduce tons of air if you're not doing one small pump (don't fill the whole thing with air before giving a small pump), and with a small batch you are moving it into a large bucket full of air. And the bottling wand is full of air. So that's more likely, but so is any headspace in the fermenter once fermentation slows.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I suggest skipping the bottling bucket, siphon directly from the fermenter to the bottle and use a syringe to add priming sugar to the bottles.

Also, don't start the mini-auto-siphon in the beer. Probably requires a spring-loaded bottling filler and a filter over the auto-mini-siphon to prevent hop trub picket. And remember to clean the bottle filler at the end of the bottling session.

Or just give into the "dark side " and keg gallon batches.

 

[slurms]

The reason for bottling sooner is you're having oxidation problems.

I was thinking that the oxidation occurs during bottling, which would be independent of length in primary. But true, once it's done, it can't get more done. Just left it in longer to let the yeast clean up after themselves.

Also, don't start the mini-auto-siphon in the beer. Probably requires a spring-loaded bottling filler and a filter over the auto-mini-siphon to prevent hop trub picket. And remember to clean the bottle filler at the end of the bottling session.

I'm not sure what you mean by don't start the auto siphon in the beer. Where else would it get started? I've also had good luck with not sucking up any of the trub in the primary. Just start at the top and lower the tip of the siphon as it works its way down. Though, given the amount of air in the auto siphon, I may try to do it the 'old fashioned' way with just some sanitizer in a tube to start the siphon.

I suggest skipping the bottling bucket, siphon directly from the fermenter to the bottle and use a syringe to add priming sugar to the bottles.

I never really thought of that before. I recently came across a video where some guy just weighed out how much priming sugar each bottle should get and just poured the correct amount of table sugar into each bottle and filled them on top of it. Seems interesting.

Maybe it's just in my head, but I always thought those auto siphons are popular. Maybe they are and people just have a better technique than I do. But, using just the tubing to start the siphon is easy enough and less to clean up. I also like the idea of bottling directly out of the primary. I have an IPA nearing the end of fermentation, so I might give it a try with that guy.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

context matters here: OP is working with one gallon batches.

Also, don't start the mini-auto-siphon in the beer.

I'm not sure what you mean by don't start the auto siphon in the beer. Where else would it get started?

In another carboy filled with either water or StarSan.

"Pro tip": Run some of the water/sanitizer through the mini-auto-siphon to confirm that it isn't sucking in air from some unknown location.

Or just give into the "dark side " and keg gallon batches.

 

[slurms]

In another carboy filled with either water or StarSan

I'm an idiot. I was thinking 'but how do I stop it?'.... I see what you're getting at now. That makes much more sense.

 

[slurms]

I just bottled an IPA that had finished fermented not too long ago. I tried to take everyone's advice into consideration.

I ended up skipping the bottling bucket this time; it's old and I just realized I can take apart the spigot, which had some brown spots on it. Instead, I siphoned into an empty carboy (which should have less exposed beer surface area to the air) which had my priming sugar solution in it.

Instead of starting the auto siphon (with the bottling wand at the other end of the hose) in with the beer, I started it with sanitizer and got any air pockets out. This definitely helped minimize any splashing/bubbling during bottling.

From there, it was just fill up the bottles as normal. I figured I'd try to eliminate one thing at a time (bottling bucket) to see if that helps with the off flavor.

On a side note, even though I'm only bottling 7-10 bottles at any given time, I ended up getting a bottling tree and vinator bottle sanitizer (figuring I'll scale up at some point). Pretty useful things! Well, that, on top of new caps, sanitizer, tubing, bottle brush...