Cavpilot2000
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I've used a variety in NEIPAs, from WLP 001 to WLP 007 to Imperial Juice to 1318.
I like 007 and Juice best.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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I like 007 and Juice best.
duelerx
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Imperial Juice and 1318 are the same strain.
Hackrsackr
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Nope.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
They are though. A38 is Imperials version of LAIII. Just as A04 is Imperials Conan strain which is WL Burlington strain.
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Similar, but actually not the same.
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couchsending
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What’s not true? Love to hear this myth debunked.
1318 and Juice act exactly the same during fermentation and produce that signature soft, kinda sweet beer.
Not saying they aren't similar, I've never seen anything that said they were the same strain. I've looked at multiple charts and they are never listed as being the same strain. Below is the most comprehensive chart I've ever seen and it's not listed there.
https://www.saltcitybrewsupply.com/media/YeastComparison3.pdf
@couchsending also this description of Juice from the morebeer.com website:
Description
Juicy and fruity, this strain is perfect for East Coast IPAs. Juice's ester profile will bring out the aromas and flavors of new school hops creating a fantastic finished beer. Just be sure to keep a close eye out during fermentation, this strain will climb right out of your fermenter if it doesn't have much head space.
Wyeast Equivalent: N/A
Description
Juicy and fruity, this strain is perfect for East Coast IPAs. Juice's ester profile will bring out the aromas and flavors of new school hops creating a fantastic finished beer. Just be sure to keep a close eye out during fermentation, this strain will climb right out of your fermenter if it doesn't have much head space.
- Temp: 64-74°F,18-23°C
- Flocculation: Medium
- Attenuation: 72-76%
- Cell Count: 200 Billion
Wyeast Equivalent: N/A
couchsending
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That’s one of my local Homebrew supply stores... let’s just say I wouldn’t trust much of that. And it’s incredibly old.
Here’s another link that’s pretty up to date.
http://momalt.com/wp-content/uploads/imperialorganicyeastgrouporder.pdf
The White Labs description of WLP095 isn’t much like Juice or 1318 for that matter.
I know it’s been debated that wlp095 isn’t the white labs version of Conan and I might believe that.
I honestly think that all the strains that are supposedly Conan don’t act much like the Conan that the Alchemist uses.
And 1318 isn’t Hill Farmstead yeast, this much I know...
Just a few more myths for everyone this morning.
Cavpilot2000
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Not to throw gas on the fire, but we all know that "same strain" from different manufacturers doesn't mean they are identical yeast. Look at WLP 001, WY 1056, and S-05. They are all the "same strain", but they are not identical in performance. Similar, but not identical.
couchsending
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So the difference between 001/1056/US05 is that Yeast strain is more prone to genetic mutations than almost any brewing strain. It’s a diploid yeast strain where almost all other brewing yeasts are polyploids. Diploid yeasts don’t have as many sets of chromosomes and consequently are much more prone to mutation. Bread yeasts are more likely to be of the diploid variety.
As always this is a good link to really throw those yeast comparison charts for a loop.
So4 is definitely not 007 or 1098.
007 and 1098 aren’t the same
002 and 1968 aren’t the same
And so on and so forth. Also confirms that there is nothing from White Lbs genetically close to 1318.
https://beer.suregork.com/?p=4030
As always this is a good link to really throw those yeast comparison charts for a loop.
So4 is definitely not 007 or 1098.
007 and 1098 aren’t the same
002 and 1968 aren’t the same
And so on and so forth. Also confirms that there is nothing from White Lbs genetically close to 1318.
https://beer.suregork.com/?p=4030
nick sekerak
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I don’t think they were stronger, as in not over powering the hop greatness but rather adding another layer equal to the hop flavor. I get the ester flavor first then hop flavor second when drinking it. If that makes sense.
nick sekerak
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Thanks I like how it turned out. I was trying the no flaked oats/wheat for this one to see if mouthfeel would change. Got the idea from the Scott Janish book.
My Actual grain bill
70% Pilsner
10% malted oats
9% malted wheat
9% carapils
2% honey malt
stickyfinger
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i asked WL if Burlington Ale is Conan. They said it is very similar then gave the usual comments about mutation and not knowing exact sourcing
Thanks for this experiment but this seems odd based on my results with malted oats. I've replaced flaked adjuncts completely in my NEIPAs for malted wheat/oats (usually heavier on the oats) and have never seen that much change in color even in a batch that I was forced to leave at room temp for over 3 weeks!
It would be interesting to see the experiment repeated by both yourself and somebody else to see if it holds true. I am willing but it won't be for a bit as I have 10G fermenting right now.
The rousing and energizer did get it down to 1.010 but this was my first ever dumper...straight from the primary to the toilet. Must've been stressed yeast.
What a pisser.
Hackrsackr
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You really think so? I find the ester profile to be very different between the two. Also, juice and 1318 behave differently for me when it comes to fermentation/dry hopping. Juice seems to handle pressure and hops better. Juice’s esters are almost solely citrus fruity, where 1318 has its distinctive pome fruity with floral notes ester profile. I find 1318 to be softer on the palate out of the two.
Hackrsackr
Well-Known Member
Even if it was the identical genetics and they knew the exact sourcing, WL wouldn’t be able to confirm it for you. It’d be like making knock off apple air pods that are identical to the real in every way, and having a customer ask you if these are apple air pods. You can’t legally say yes, but you can say that they are very similar to apple air pods with nearly identical performance. Legal...
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
None of the Chicos are diploid - they're tetrapoloid like almost every Beer1 strain. From what I can make out it comes from a misunderstanding in Dunn & Sherlock 2008 https://genome.cshlp.org/content/18/10/1610.full.pdf+html where they just assumed that any non-lager yeast must be diploid, even though the version of Chico they used (1056) showed lots of heterozygosity for them!!! But trust me, Chicos are tetraploid.
What would cause fermentation to halt at the last few points? I made a few NE IPAs and used 1318 in May, and slurry for the next few-they all finished 1.020 at best, maybe 1.018 on one. I just made an entirely different recipe (following post 5803), this time using Omega OYL-052 and this one finished at 1.022.
I ferment around 68* for 10 days at least, I've dry hopped 3 days in, 6 days in-didn't seem to matter. I've had others finish out with the same yeast in the same conditions that dropped a little lower-the only thing that changed this year is that I am using a SS BrewBucket-process is all remotely the same. I can't figure out why they're stalling at the end now.
I ferment around 68* for 10 days at least, I've dry hopped 3 days in, 6 days in-didn't seem to matter. I've had others finish out with the same yeast in the same conditions that dropped a little lower-the only thing that changed this year is that I am using a SS BrewBucket-process is all remotely the same. I can't figure out why they're stalling at the end now.
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Cavpilot2000
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WHat kind of OG are you starting with?
What kind of mash regimen are you using?
1.060-1.064 for a few. Those were all 1318 being used. Most recent was 1.074 with the Omega yeast. I wanted to switch to see if using slurry was my issue, but apparently getting similar results.
Mashing 148-152 for 60 minutes. I generally lose a couple degrees during, but still hit close to my OG and efficiency doesn't take too much of a hit. I generally get between 65-75%.
did you get a new hydrometer? And what temp are you measuring the gravity at? Too cold will yield you too many points.
I broke a hydrometer for the first time in years, and have noticed a few point drift.
Also- I've used old 1318 and have seen that the final points need more than 10 days to scrub off on the cake. When it's ~3 months old, fermenting in the mid 60's needs at least 2 weeks in primary. Using a clear fermentation vessel + a wireless hydrometer (Tilt, etc) helps you see the activity and gravity trends before making brash decisions.
I broke a hydrometer for the first time in years, and have noticed a few point drift.
Also- I've used old 1318 and have seen that the final points need more than 10 days to scrub off on the cake. When it's ~3 months old, fermenting in the mid 60's needs at least 2 weeks in primary. Using a clear fermentation vessel + a wireless hydrometer (Tilt, etc) helps you see the activity and gravity trends before making brash decisions.
I actually did get a new one for this last batch after my last few (again for the reason being I wanted to pinpoint where the issue could be lol). I have a refractometer as well with ATC. I made sure both were calibrated to 0 before this most recent batch. Both gave me 1.074 as my OG with temperature correction (for the hydro reading)
I took a measurement last Thursday and it was at 1.022, took another one on Sunday and it was still at 1.022. I presume it's not dropping much further, if any. Today would be day 12 of fermentation.
I took a measurement last Thursday and it was at 1.022, took another one on Sunday and it was still at 1.022. I presume it's not dropping much further, if any. Today would be day 12 of fermentation.
Cavpilot2000
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Was that with hydrometer or refractometer?
You are using a refractometer calculator of FG, right? You know it doesn't give a correct reading when there is alcohol in solution, yes?
I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but some people don't realize that when they first start using a refractometer.
What about O2?Juice is noted as needing extra O2. I have never had a problem with my Juice starters fermenting out, but the Imperial page (at least it used to) noted to double O2 requirements for complete fermentation. I do not dose beyond what is gained from transfer to FV however
Yes, I only use the refractometer for SG/OG readings, I am aware it doesn't give an accurate reading with alcohol in the solution. I never use it beyond brew day. The hydro gave me 1.074 before fermentation, and the FG 1.022 readings have come only from the hydrometer (@68*)
That could be it. I always give the wort a good long shake before pitching, but perhaps that is my bottleneck. I did not know that about this yeast-may need to look into another method of getting O2 into the beer prior to pitching. Like you, my starters always seem plenty healthy, and the last few I have done have been 2L starters so according to the 4 calculators I use, it should be an adequate amount of yeast cells available when I'm pitching.
VirginiaHops1
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Obviously more than mash temp plays into attenuation but you should get lower with that mash temp. I did 3 batches of 1318 awhile back, all were around 1.058-1.060 OG.
Gen1 - mashed at 153. FG - 1.014
Gen2(harvested) - mashed at 156. FG - 1.020
Gen2(harvested) - mashed at 149. FG - 1.010
I didn't taste much difference in body/sweetness between the 3 batches, so I wouldn't sweat finishing at 1.020 unless you disliked it for some reason. I know some breweries who actually shoot for that FG on their hazy IPAs.
Interesting. Thanks, this is new to me. Basically I brewed my Gen1 in May, numbers were *close* but FG was 1.020 with 1318 and I was curious why-last year I made similar recipes and really the only piece of equipment that changed was my Brewbucket. I did start buying from a new homebrew place, so I went to double milled grains to see if that changed-I got great efficiency once I did that, but the attenuation was still lower. The following recipe was back to how the first turned out and I think the lowest I got a FG was 1.018, but thinking on it that may have been one that mashed at 148*. Generally I hover right around 152* though, so what you are saying would make sense. I've been double milling all my grain now, and like you, all of my OG when using 1318 landed right around 1.060 (+-.001). Thanks for the input!
Oldskewl
Well-Known Member
I think your yeast did fine. It still attenuated 70.2%. When you start with a higher gravity of the same recipe it will finish a few points higher. If you changed the recipe you may have more unfermentable sugars and that would also cause it as well.
Dgallo
Instagram: bantam_brews
@paarman I do not know if anyone mentioned this yet, but have you replaced the batteries in your Thermometer lately and/or are you sure you thermometer is calibrated correctly. I had an issue two beers in a row that they were reading lower than the actual temp. Was trying to target 152 and kept finishing at 1.018ish finally checked on the third batch and 152 on my digital was actually 4 degrees higher. Just another curveball thrown into the mix
couchsending
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Did you use any sugar in the 1.074 batch?
I too have struggled with 1318 the few times I’ve used it in the last year or so. Actually have something going with the Omega strain right now and I’m interested to see how it ends up. I checked it yesterday and was thinking it would be lower as I overpitched it and started at 68 then bumped to 72.
I oxygenate with a .5 micron stone and pure o2 at .5 for 3 minutes. DO meter buts that around 12 ppm O2.
Yeast nutrient always
Doing all the things necessary to ensure quick and complete fermentation. Unless my yeast viability in severely challenged to begin with not sure what the issue is.
Thermapen and GF thermostat are all calibrated.
I too have struggled with 1318 the few times I’ve used it in the last year or so. Actually have something going with the Omega strain right now and I’m interested to see how it ends up. I checked it yesterday and was thinking it would be lower as I overpitched it and started at 68 then bumped to 72.
I oxygenate with a .5 micron stone and pure o2 at .5 for 3 minutes. DO meter buts that around 12 ppm O2.
Yeast nutrient always
Doing all the things necessary to ensure quick and complete fermentation. Unless my yeast viability in severely challenged to begin with not sure what the issue is.
Thermapen and GF thermostat are all calibrated.
I use a dial thermometer, but I thought about upgrading to an instant-read one to save myself some headache. I'll keep this in mind, thanks!
Glad to hear someone else having similar issues. I didn't use any sugar in this batch, just these ingredients, except I somehow forgot the honey malt
.. It was only 6oz of it however. 15lbs total without.2 Row, Golden Promise, Flaked Oats, Flaked Barley, White Wheat Malt, Honey Malt
I will look into making sure my wort gets more oxygen moving forward-not something I have ever really focused on before, perhaps overlooked/forgot about it.
Thanks for the feedback!
I read an article (tried to find it but no luck) that was actually in reference to pitching active starters recently spun on a stir plate. the suggestion was that the currently active fermentation, and the excess oxygen as introduced into the starter wort, when pitched directly into the full size batch wort would be an improvement over pitching a "cold" decanted starter even if adding O2 via wand.
I have been thinking about trying something like that since i dont have an o2 wand just yet, but have the other materials.
I have been thinking about trying something like that since i dont have an o2 wand just yet, but have the other materials.
couchsending
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I use a dial thermometer, but I thought about upgrading to an instant-read one to save myself some headache. I'll keep this in mind, thanks!
Glad to hear someone else having similar issues. I didn't use any sugar in this batch, just these ingredients, except I somehow forgot the honey malt
2 Row, Golden Promise, Flaked Oats, Flaked Barley, White Wheat Malt, Honey Malt
I will look into making sure my wort gets more oxygen moving forward-not something I have ever really focused on before, perhaps overlooked/forgot about it.
Thanks for the feedback!
Yeah you definitely need to use some
Sugar at that gravity to get fermentation down lower.
How much would you use in a 5 gallon batch with about 15.4lbs grain... 1 cup towards the end of the boil?
In
I think the suggestion is to replace some of your base malt with sugar since the sugar is fully fermentable. So for the same og you are basically guaranteed to get a slightly lower fg by swapping out some base malt for 8-16 oz of sugar
couchsending
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Exactly. Up to a lb of dextrose especially if you’re trying to get to 8%. I find that with double IPAs the alcohol adds a bunch of sweetness and body in its own. I shoot for somewhere around 1.012 for a finishing gravity on an 8% IIPA.
This is where beers like Double Citra from HF finish and they’re some of my favorite IIPAs. They’re incredibly drinkable, never sweet.
This is where beers like Double Citra from HF finish and they’re some of my favorite IIPAs. They’re incredibly drinkable, never sweet.
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InspectorJon
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Dial thermometers are notorious for being out of calibration. I use them a lot for work and regularly find them out of adjustment. I am looking at temperature differentials so actual temperature accuracy is not critical for that use. They can be adjusted. Grab the hex nut on the bottom with some pliers or wrench and twist the dial with another set of pliers. Test the thermometer in a glass full of crushed ice and water. Stirred up good it should read 32F or 0C. Testing with boiling water can be hard to get right if you are not pretty near sea level. Boiling water temperature drops about 1 degree F per 500 feet of elevation according to tables I have seen.
My daughter got me a ThermoPop for Christmas a couple years ago. I love it.
