New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[popquizkid]

Never tried fermenting a stout with any of my ipa yeast. Could def be interesting. Just be carful with that small of a starter. I’m a firm believer in a fast fermentation. Depending on the age of the yeast, I typically always do 2 liter starter

I probably did not explain myself well.

I made a 2L starter for the stout which was really more than I needed. I pulled 16oz of that into a sanitized mason jar and will move to the fridge after it ferments all of the way out. When I go to make the next IPA I will make another starter, decant the wort off the yeast in the jar and pitch that into a starter for the IPA. That is how I reuse yeast instead of pulling it out of the fermented batch. Much easier and cleaner.

As far as 1318 -- it has only been an IPA yeast as of recent times. Wyeast has stout listed as one of the styles it works in and have heard good things so figured what the heck. This will be the first time I have used in a stout (in the past I used 007) but I wanted to get a couple other batches out of the yeast so figured I would give 1318 a shot.

 

[SRJHops]

I honestly think with NEIPA bottling might be advantageous if you cannot do closed transfers. I have a bottle filler, and use warm bottles, so the yeast eats up the oxygen really fast after bottling. At least that is my theory because they last 4 weeks easily.
Only time I had a problem with oxidation was when I cold crashed a batch of heavily hopped beer.

Nice to hear that bottling might even be advantageous! (Are you still using a bottling bucket?)

I had my 6-week old NEIPA last night and it's hanging in there nicely...just a very slight creep of oxidation. I only have one bottle left, but I bet it would still be good for a couple more weeks. Luckily, my latest batch will be ready on Friday!

I'm not super-interested in switching to kegging right now, but maybe in the future. For now, I like bottling into bombers. Of course, if I kegged I could be drinking in 2 weeks or less, but I'm grain to glass in 21 days -- and could probably push that to 17 if I wanted to bottle during the week... However, I do notice that my most recent NEIPA actually got a little better after being in the bottle for a couple weeks. 3 weeks seems to be the sweet spot, based on my last one.

 

[Dgallo]

I probably did not explain myself well.

I made a 2L starter for the stout which was really more than I needed. I pulled 16oz of that into a sanitized mason jar and will move to the fridge after it ferments all of the way out. When I go to make the next IPA I will make another starter, decant the wort off the yeast in the jar and pitch that into a starter for the IPA. That is how I reuse yeast instead of pulling it out of the fermented batch. Much easier and cleaner.

As far as 1318 -- it has only been an IPA yeast as of recent times. Wyeast has stout listed as one of the styles it works in and have heard good things so figured what the heck. This will be the first time I have used in a stout (in the past I used 007) but I wanted to get a couple other batches out of the yeast so figured I would give 1318 a shot.

Gotcha. Yeah why not give it a shot. The ester will add some complexity. I’m a big fan of Denny’s favorite for a stout. I think it’s 1450 if I’m correct

 

[Dgallo]

Nice to hear that bottling might even be advantageous! (Are you still using a bottling bucket?)

I had my 6-week old NEIPA last night and it's hanging in there nicely...just a very slight creep of oxidation. I only have one bottle left, but I bet it would still be good for a couple more weeks. Luckily, my latest batch will be ready on Friday!

I'm not super-interested in switching to kegging right now, but maybe in the future. For now, I like bottling into bombers. Of course, if I kegged I could be drinking in 2 weeks or less, but I'm grain to glass in 21 days -- and could probably push that to 17 if I wanted to bottle during the week... However, I do notice that my most recent NEIPA actually got a little better after being in the bottle for a couple weeks. 3 weeks seems to be the sweet spot, based on my last one.

Bottling is not advantageous to kegging in any way, shape, or form for the style of NEIPA. Sorry to be so direct but I don’t want you getting false information. You can continue to bottle. It’s all a personal choice but if you are bottle conditioning you are adding oxygen in your beer, you are asking sluggish yeast to eat again which increases your chances for them to produce acetaldehyde (precursor to alcohol - off flavor). When kegging you can completely control your co2 volume and beers stay fresher much longer. That’s not even all... the time you save kegging. You have to rinse and sterilize ever bottle. Then fill and cap every bottle. then wait 7-10 days for them to carb. I force carb so I literally drink my beer 40 minutes after racking it in the keg.

I’m not bashing you by any means, I think we all pretty much started bottling our beers, but ask anyone who kegs and they will tell you it was one of the best if not the best investment they made. You just don’t understand how much of an improvement you will have in your quality by kegging until you actually do it.

 

[Golyo]

Nice to hear that bottling might even be advantageous! (Are you still using a bottling bucket?)

I had my 6-week old NEIPA last night and it's hanging in there nicely...just a very slight creep of oxidation. I only have one bottle left, but I bet it would still be good for a couple more weeks. Luckily, my latest batch will be ready on Friday!

I'm not super-interested in switching to kegging right now, but maybe in the future. For now, I like bottling into bombers. Of course, if I kegged I could be drinking in 2 weeks or less, but I'm grain to glass in 21 days -- and could probably push that to 17 if I wanted to bottle during the week... However, I do notice that my most recent NEIPA actually got a little better after being in the bottle for a couple weeks. 3 weeks seems to be the sweet spot, based on my last one.

I am bottling from my secondary bucket. Racking from primary after 3 days to dryhop. Sugar is in the bottle. Bottle is lukewarm, no cold crashing. My theory is that the yeast is active and eats up the oxygen really fast. Carbonation is done in 5 days at 25 °C. My beer stays very good for about 4 weeks after bottling, and good for another week or two.

 

[Golyo]

Bottling is not advantageous to kegging in any way, shape, or form for the style of NEIPA.

I think it can be if you cannot do closed transfers. That's what I said, that's what he replied to. Do you ferment in kegs?

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

This is anecdotal and just based on my own process and taste, but I have bottle conditioned NEIPAs. When I bottle them, I CO2 transfer from a carboy to a purged keg onto priming solution (typically gyle) with additional fresh yeast, fill bottles from the keg as gently as possible, then purge the headspace in each individual bottle with CO2. I then leave the bottles at a controlled 68F for 12 days, then chill them to serving temp. One thing I like about bottling is that the distribution of sediment is very even. I go grain to glass in 21-22 days with that method.

I will say that the hop character is less bright after the post-package conditioning period compared to a sample at packaging time, but the beer does not taste oxidized and has a shelf life of... well, I don't know, I tend to drink it before it oxidizes. Keg conditioning yields a similar result with the same timeline for me.

My theory is that the conditioning period at room temp is what is making the hop character fade a bit compared to force carbing.

For those that prefer to naturally carb (like me), I wonder if the best way is to spund in a primary keg then either serve from it or bottle cold, carbed beer from it and store cold. I haven't tried that, but I think I will next month.

 

[Dgallo]

I think it can be if you cannot do closed transfers. That's what I said, that's what he replied to. Do you ferment in kegs?

I read what you stated. You’re trying to make an argument of lesser of two evils. I’m speaking of brewing process. Kegging vs. Bottling. We can make the same beer, use the same process, just you bottle and I keg and mine would be better simply because of kegging

 

[Golyo]

I read what you stated. You’re trying to make an argument of lesser of two evils. I’m speaking of brewing process. Kegging vs. Bottling. We can make the same beer, use the same process, just you bottle and I keg and mine would be better simply because of kegging

I've basically written down all my process step by step and tried to make an argument. Yeah, kegging is great, but I haven't spent that much on equipment since I started brewing that I'd need to start kegging. 4-5-6 kegs, CO2 tank, beergun, kegerator etc. I will make that step sometime in the future. But it is a big step.

So, no, you are not speaking of brewing process. We know nothing about your process, just that you keg and find it great.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

I've basically written down all my process step by step and tried to make an argument. Yeah, kegging is great, but I haven't spent that much on equipment since I started brewing that I'd need to start kegging. 4-5-6 kegs, CO2 tank, beergun, kegerator etc. I will make that step sometime in the future. But it is a big step.

So, no, you are not speaking of brewing process. We know nothing about your process, just that you keg and find it great.

You're right, it is a big step for sure. Brulosophy did a good xBmt on bottling vs. kegging NEIPAs. That xBmt did not achieve significance. Of course, the xBmt doesn't say much about shelf life, and there was a difference in appearance (for those that care about such things).

Anyway, my point is that it is possible to make an excellent NEIPA using either packaging method.

http://brulosophy.com/2018/03/12/th...oning-on-new-england-ipa-exbeeriment-results/

 

[GnenieGone]

I've basically written down all my process step by step and tried to make an argument. Yeah, kegging is great, but I haven't spent that much on equipment since I started brewing that I'd need to start kegging. 4-5-6 kegs, CO2 tank, beergun, kegerator etc. I will make that step sometime in the future. But it is a big step.

So, no, you are not speaking of brewing process. We know nothing about your process, just that you keg and find it great.

So much depends on how much you drink. I went the 2.5gal keg route. Chest freezers are cheep. You can build a temp controller for 20 bucks. Picnic taps are cheep. Used 5gal CO2 are around 80 or so I belive. Advantages and disadvantages either way.

 

[Dgallo]

I've basically written down all my process step by step and tried to make an argument. Yeah, kegging is great, but I haven't spent that much on equipment since I started brewing that I'd need to start kegging. 4-5-6 kegs, CO2 tank, beergun, kegerator etc. I will make that step sometime in the future. But it is a big step.

So, no, you are not speaking of brewing process. We know nothing about your process, just that you keg and find it great.

Let me retract then. I was arguing the process of bottling vs kegging. I’m trying to make the point that the no matter how well you bottle to eliminate O2, it will still happen with this specific style. NEIPA are prone to oxidation due to the hop material themselves. When bottling you increase that oxidation. Now @ThePaleAleIndian has the only process I’ve seen from anyone that can minimize the possibilities of oxidation when bottle. Besides the priming sugar, he practically “kegs” bottles. Here is an example. This beers has been on tap for close to 60 days. And there has been zero change in color. Aroma and flavor has faded due to time but there is no off flavors at all. Much of that goes to kegging not just my process. Which I do not share it has taken 30+ NE brews alone to dial it in and produce medal placing beers. Call me selfish that’s fine but I put in the hard work and I won’t give that out. My argument goes back to, no matter how well you bottle, if you keg well, the Kegged beer will alway last longer and taste brighter than the bottled beer.
[I deleted the attachment. Looked awkward since I still had my hazard work shirt on]

 

[Dgallo]

 

[ryanm8]

Bottling is fine if you do it right. I think I have pics I posted earlier in this thread where I post the same batch of beer from grain to glass in 14 days compared to 3 months later in the bottle. Color is exactly the same, although flavor did fade some.

My NEIPA's lately have been world class so I still don't see a need to keg.

 

[Dgallo]

Bottling is fine if you do it right. I think I have pics I posted earlier in this thread where I post the same batch of beer from grain to glass in 14 days compared to 3 months later in the bottle. Color is exactly the same, although flavor did fade some.

My NEIPA's lately have been world class so I still don't see a need to keg.

Have you kegged one of your beers yet? If not, your comment is completely invalid. That’s not me being a dick but it’s simple, you haven’t done it so you don’t know. I used to bottle and I used to think what I was producing was good, which they were. Then I got Kegging equipment and brewed the same beer. The increase in quality was huge. Took that good beer to the next level.

This is the last comment I’ll make on this matter since I feel people are half reading my arguments anyway... unless you have bottled conditioned and kegged beers, you argument does not hold water. It’s like saying chocolate is better than vanilla but you never tried vanilla (or visa versa). But if someone does both and says their bottle conditioned NEIPAS are better than their kegged ones, I’ll prob still disagree, but who am I to argue their preference.

 

[Hannabrew]

They could simply compare their bottled beer to a quality commercial example... If it's on par a few weeks in they must be doing something right.

I don't think it's impossible to bottle condition the style as alchemist is well known for doing so (although their NEIPA is not quite what we think of as the style anymore). Yes they can which is better with oxygen ingress over time but as most have stated these beers don't tend to last too long.


Another hole in your argument is you are assuming that everyone's process is the same as yours. If you had less than stellar cold side process then just switching from bottling to kegging will have a huge impact whereas if your process was air tight (pun intended) the difference will likely be more subtle. I know some folks who bottle spund which will result in less oxygen exposure than a force carb in a keg (again ignoring the cap ingress over time)

it certainly is a lot more challenging to bottle this style and I personally have never done it but I'm sure it can be done

 

[doogie]

Much of that goes to kegging not just my process. Which I do not share it has taken 30+ NE brews alone to dial it in and produce medal placing beers.

Have you kegged one of your beers yet? If not, your comment is completely invalid. That’s not me being a dick but it’s simple, you haven’t done it so you don’t know.

So I assume that you have gone back and done 30+ tries at bottling NEIPAs to see if you can dial in bottling. If not, your comment is completely invalid and you are being a dick.

 

[Sbe2]

If you have to preface with “I don’t mean to sound like a d*** or be one but...”. Chances are you are being one.

 

[Dgallo]

You can’t make a comment on the efficacy of two different methods without trying both methods. That is the point. It is that simple. If having that view that makes me a dick, so be it. I have done both methods. Bottling the correct way, purging fermenter with Co2 throughout, No cold crash, Warm bottles, complete close transfers , Warm storage until carb sets, then cold storage for remainder. So I’m not talking out of my ass here. I have had the experience doing both and I have come to a conclusion.

 

[ryanm8]

If you think about it for a moment, the IPAs you get from breweries considered world class (Trillium, etc.) are in cans. They aren't doing anything special to keep oxygen out at canning. So the same can certainly be done at the homebrew level.

I also think there would be a big difference between the same beer on tap vs in cans if it was impossible to can / bottle correctly.

 

[kevink]

If you think about it for a moment, the IPAs you get from breweries considered world class (Trillium, etc.) are in cans. They aren't doing anything special to keep oxygen out at canning.

Well they do do some stuff to keep it out, but that big gaping hole on the top before the lid gets put on is going to let air in. This is where you can do better on the homebrew level and why the freshness of mine are way better than any can from Trillium, Alchemist, Tired Hands, etc. You have to be very anal, though, but it's totally worth it.

 

[ThePaleAleIndian]

@Dgallo, I'm sure your beer improved when you went from bottling to kegging as you say. We can't know why without knowing more about your process, which is information you decline to share. Most people on homebrew forums tend to share, but ok. However, as others have implied, without comparing the actual processes, you can't judge whether someone else's bottled beer will be better than your kegged beer or not. Even then, it's speculation, because most of us are not trying each other's beer unfortunately.

I don't think having an opinion on the best packaging method for your beer makes you a dick at all. Applying a lesson from your own beer to someone else's process doesn't make you a dick either. Now, assuming your kegged beer is better than someone else's bottled beer just based on packaging method? Personally I would rather leave that kind of judgement to someone who has sampled both beers like, say, a BJCP judge.

IMHO there is sufficient evidence out there that says that an excellent NEIPA can be made bottling or kegging.

 

[Golyo]

Much of that goes to kegging not just my process. Which I do not share it has taken 30+ NE brews alone to dial it in and produce medal placing beers. Call me selfish that’s fine but I put in the hard work and I won’t give that out.

Wow. You're not going to share information because you want an edge in homebrew contests? You are on a forum, stating that you are here only to read and talk ****, because, well, nobody is interested in a method that you are not going to share.

On another note, thanks, Braufessor for the recipe. It's da bomb.

 

[drjayray]

NEipa and kegging vs bottling hmmm..... I have done both, on the same batch even. I always brew 5-6gal batches, usually from extract for the malt addition, but a pound of quaker oats soak in muslin bag for 20min gives you that nice haze and creamy pillow mouthfeel. I used Wyeast 1318 London Ale III and it made a huge positive difference. I made a 2liter starter with saving a few samples to use on future brews and its a very aggressive yeast requiring a blowoff tube the first few days as it clogged and broke my 3piece airlock. Dry hopping during active fermentation after a few days and again 3 days or so before bottling/kegging. Did 2.5gal keg and 20 flip top grolsh type brown pint bottles as lost a gallon from all the hop absorption. I always prime in bucket before bottling and/or kegging. Let both bottle and keg condition for 5-7days and then tossed in kegger and a few bottles in fridge. Lots of white yeast sediment in both keg and bottles and pouring into a pint glass from either I could not tell which beer came from which in regard to color, flavor, head, etc. I did purge the top of the keg with CO2/pressure relief valve yank a few times to get rid of any headspace O2. Bottles just had the usual 1-2inch of room air before I quickly starsan the flip tops and secured them in place. I left a few bottles out of the fridge for even a month or two after and they still were great after chilling down and enjoying. I even remade another starter from just one pint bottle yeast sediment and that went onto make another 6gal batch (London ale 3 yeast is crazy). So you can bottle or keg it with the same results. I think its more on using oats, getting the right yeast, and dry hopping it twice. Good luck either way.

 

[ttuato]

I have experimented with Hornindal Kveik yeast recently - very good stuff but it does not supplant my two house yeasts of 1272 & Conan for this style. One thing I learned more about researching the Kveik is the "no boil" method. Larsblog says that this is a good option for brewers of NEIPA. Because I am still learning about Kveik, I decided to use Conan instead and make my "house" IPA that I am so familiar with. I can confidently say that this is a process worth exploring for folks that are pressed for time. I am gonna try it one more time before I make the switch completely to this process. ~ THREE HOURS Brewing time with No Boil

Timeline

• Fill kettle - I use osmosis filter so this takes some time that I omit from my brewing schedule. Also helps to omit with SWMBO when discussing how long "it will take" to finish brewing...
• 20 mins to mash-in temp. During this time I measured and added salts, conditioned then milled malt, measured hop additions
• 60 min mash @152
• 10 min mash out @168
• 20 min sterilize at 180 - added 1/2oz CTZ for "bittering" here, attached & sterilized CFC cooler, added yeast nutrient, sterilized hop spider
• 30 min whirlpool - Chilled to 170 in just a few minutes. I do BIAB (brewboss) - discarded spent grain and cleaned bag
• 15 min chill to pitch temp, then added to fermenter
• 20 min clean up

Observations:

• Shaved off about 1.5 hrs from regular process that includes temp ramp up time, boil, chill to WP time
• Mouthfeel - beyond brew time this is I think the biggest advantage to the "no boil" method since there will not be a hot break and more protein will stay in solution. If you think about all of the "pros" for adding flaked adjuncts you can accomplish those with a "no boil" method and simplify your grain bill. Also see the MBAA podcast on Hidden Secrets of NEIPA if you doubt the importance of protein in solution for NEIPA. (It is haze, not yeast, and the reason so much hoppy goodness is trapped in solution).
• • SRM is lighter - but I don't care about this
  • Haze is comparable to regular boil process - again I dont care about this
  • Foam stability is comparable to usual, maybe a smidge less

My grain bill for this batch was 91% GP, 5% flaked oats, 5% Honey Malt. My next no boil batch will be 95% GP & 5% Honey Malt to see if mouthfeel is comparable.

 

[ttuato]

It is acutally much lighter than the pic appears due to crappy lighting

 

[ryanm8]

I have never tried no boil, but I think my process is different than most because I do 2 gallon batches. So I do everything on my stove with a 5 gallon kettle. The entire contents go through a strainer and into the fermenter.

One thing I have noticed is that the yeast sediment adds a lot to flavor to this style. I have started to flip the bottles upside down a few times before pouring, especially for bottles that have been in the fridge for weeks. The beer comes out opaque and loads more flavor.

 

[GnenieGone]

Well here it is. Fingers crossed but no off flavors as of yet. 7 days old. Fermentasaurous has some bugs I need to work out but this is silky smooth even with some resin character in there. Easy drinking. The main thing is I have a process to work with now....finally!

 

[Braufessor]

If you think about it for a moment, the IPAs you get from breweries considered world class (Trillium, etc.) are in cans. They aren't doing anything special to keep oxygen out at canning. So the same can certainly be done at the homebrew level.

I also think there would be a big difference between the same beer on tap vs in cans if it was impossible to can / bottle correctly.

I will say this...... I don't know of any of the "world class" versions of NEIPA's that are not consistently better on tap than they are in the can. I can say with much experience that Toppling Goliath and Pulpit Rock 's beers (in my area) are essentially always better on tap than they are in can form.

I have found cans and bottles from Trillium to be very hit and miss. Some have been spectacular. Some have been complete drain-pours.

I will say I have yet to have a "bad/off" can from Hill Farmstead..... I have really enjoyed all of the IPA's I have ever had from them in can form.

 

[kevink]

I will say this...... I don't know of any of the "world class" versions of NEIPA's that are not consistently better on tap than they are in the can.

Assuming that the beer gets transferred to kegs before pouring (not served from brites), how do breweries purge kegs?

 

[Dgallo]

Assuming that the beer gets transferred to kegs before pouring (not served from brites), how do breweries purge kegs?

They typically force carb if they aren’t kegging from unitanks or brites. Everything is profit margins so they need to flip fermenters and kegs quickly.

 

[kevink]

They typically force carb if they aren’t kegging from unitanks or brites. Everything is profit margins so they need to flip fermenters and kegs quickly.

I was wondering how they purge kegs of air, not how they carbonate. I know they typically force carb in brites before kegging.

 

[Golyo]

I will say this...... I don't know of any of the "world class" versions of NEIPA's that are not consistently better on tap than they are in the can.

How do you know the age of each beer? I am assuming only those places run them on tap that can sell a keg in 3 weeks. How do you know the age of the can? Best before date can mean anything. In my country craft breweries wary 6, 12, 18 and 24 months longevity pretty randomly on their brews, so it is hard to know for sure.

 

[Golyo]

deleted

 

[kevink]

How do you know the age of each beer? I am assuming only those places run them on tap that can sell a keg in 3 weeks. How do you know the age of the can? Best before date can mean anything. In my country craft breweries wary 6, 12, 18 and 24 months longevity pretty randomly on their brews, so it is hard to know for sure.

Most really good breweries use packaging dates, not best buy dates, and the beer sells out within a few days, so you pretty much know when it was packaged without even looking at the date. I will not even buy a beer that has a best buy date on it.

 

[Dgallo]

I was wondering how they purge kegs of air, not how they carbonate. I know they typically force carb in brites before kegging.

Gotcha. The place by me that I help out from time to time, granted they are on the small size so it may be different for larger operations, but they use the sanke coupler in reverse. Hooks the gas to the liquid port and with low pressure they purge it that way. Leaving the coupler in starsan solution until they need it.

 

[kevink]

Hooks the gas to the liquid port and with low pressure they purge it that way. Leaving the coupler in starsan solution until they need it.

So they just blow gas in under low pressure for a specific amount of time? They are not filling it with sanitizer and then pushing it out?

 

[Dgallo]

Kegs are rinsed and sterilized prior to when we fill. He may do that before I’ve ever gotten there. I can text him though

 

[Dgallo]

He’s said since all his kegs stay home and they go through them quick, he only pushes sterilizer through the kegs when he cleaning lines. Otherwise he only disassembles them, rinses and sprays down with sterilizer. So yeah just pushes air into them to purge

 

[Braufessor]

How do you know the age of each beer? I am assuming only those places run them on tap that can sell a keg in 3 weeks. How do you know the age of the can? Best before date can mean anything. In my country craft breweries wary 6, 12, 18 and 24 months longevity pretty randomly on their brews, so it is hard to know for sure.

Well.... locally, I know because they release a batch of a certain beer and some of it is on tap and some of it is in cans .....from the same batch of beer. So, both are the same batch, the same age, and I will drink them the same week. The beer on tap is always as good or better than the beer in cans. I have never..... ever..... had a can of beer and said - "wow..... that is better than the stuff they have on tap right now." Sometimes it is equally good. It is never better. And, it is usually not as good.