New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[milldoggy]

I would think there is something else that you have improved on that improved the quality of your beer. Most studies show that after 60 minutes at temps no measurable(additional) simple sugars or complex sugars can be extracted. Not saying your beer hasn’t got better, because I’m sure it has but I lean to you improving somewhere else as well

To be honest, I think the full volume has help. I was using a Herms and feel I was oversparging and letting the ph go too low.

 

[JohnConnor]

Citra and mosaic, both dry hops were split 1/2 and 1/2 for both the control and experimental

I'd say I've had more luck seeing biotransformation in "old school" hops. Chinook can get very lime-y. I've had amarillo/simcoe go from grapefruity pine to straight lemon aide.

 

[Dgallo]

I'd say I've had more luck seeing biotransformation in "old school" hops. Chinook can get very lime-y. I've had amarillo/simcoe go from grapefruity pine to straight lemon aide.

Never tried it with those hops. There was a difference in the two beers, no doubt, however my self and those in the club who tried the two blindly did not think it elevated hop flavor or aroma, we felt it simply made it different. With that being said I’m sure the new complexity of flavor and purposeful hopping combinations can create a unique flavor that makes a solid beer that could not be replicated without biotranformation hopping.

 

[leesmith]

Never tried it with those hops. There was a difference in the two beers, no doubt, however my self and those in the club who tried the two blindly did not think it elevated hop flavor or aroma, we felt it simply made it different. With that being said I’m sure the new complexity of flavor and purposeful hopping combinations can create a unique flavor that makes a solid beer that could not be replicated without biotranformation hopping.

How about early dry hopping instead of biostransformation until the research is conclusive?

 

[JohnConnor]

Never tried it with those hops. There was a difference in the two beers, no doubt, however my self and those in the club who tried the two blindly did not think it elevated hop flavor or aroma, we felt it simply made it different. With that being said I’m sure the new complexity of flavor and purposeful hopping combinations can create a unique flavor that makes a solid beer that could not be replicated without biotranformation hopping.

Oh yeah, I totally agree. It's purely a different flavor. There is no amping of flavor/aroma IMO.

 

[Dgallo]

How about early dry hopping instead of biostransformation until the research is conclusive?

I could get behind it. I would be comfortable calling fermentation hopping as well since “early” is relative term

 

[ttuato]

I’m a believer of the biotransformation of hop flavors, However I do not believe it elevates an aroma or flavor, just makes it different.

I did an experiment last August where I brewed the same ipa. Both were ddh with 2 - 2 oz additions. The control was dry hopped at day 5 and day 2 before kegging. The experimental was dry hopped on day 2 of fermentation(the biotransformation addition) and again 2 days from keg. My and those who tried it anecdotal perception of the beers were that did taste and smell different, not overwhelmingly but different. We were ,however, unable to determine if the biotransformation made the beer any better. We concluded that it has the potential to cause a different flavor and aroma in the beer, which may or may not benefit the overall perception of a beer.

I too am a believer in biotransformation but "importance" of my focus on this as a brewer of NEIPAs is waning. Keep in mind that the primary research (Takoi) focuses on "biotransformation" of geraniol/linalool converting to beta-citronellol supposedly by yeast.....

• It comes from whirlpool hops not dry hops ---- Suggested reading: Daniel Sharp's PhD dissertation: https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/graduate_thesis_or_dissertations/g732df611
  • Chapter 6: Contributions of select hopping regimes to the terpenoid content and hop aroma profile of ale and lager beers":
    • "Interestingly though, the Simcoe kettle hopped treatment and the Simcoe dry-hopped treatment had similar concentrations of geraniol (Table 30), yet the kettle hop treatment resulted in a higher concentration of β-citronellol. Furthermore, the dry-hop treatment had the lowest level of β-citronellol, suggestingthat isomerization of geraniol into β-citronellol may have occurred during primary fermentation and not during dry-hopping or subsequent conditioning of the beers. This is in contrast to work by Takoi et. al 201459,146, which showed an increase in β- citronellol concentrations post primary fermentation during maturation as well as during primary fermentation. These differences suggest that the dry-hopping conditions used in this study (e.g. timing of dry-hop additions, conditioning temperatures, and yeast contact time) were not conducive for the biotransformation of geraniol into β-citronellol by yeast.

Based on the above and other anecdotal / exbeeriments / another research paper (I forgot which one), I stopped doing a "krausen dry hop" hoping for the magical biotransformation to occur and focused on loading whirlpool hops (1oz/gal) with geraniol, linalool, and β-citronellol (Simcoe, Citra, Bravo). Have there been any appreciable differences in my beer....maybe something subtle, BUT less complicated brewing process so I am game. My process now is to soft crash to 58 after diacetyl rest and add dry hops for 24hr, cold crash and transfer to serving keg.

• Later I happened upon this study by Grant Ruehele of New Belgium - check out slide 12. MIND BLOWN!!!! http://www.ibdlearningzone.org.uk/article/show/pdf/1623/
  • Dry hops added to filtered mature beer - aka NO YEAST....guess what happened:
  • Geraniol concentration went down..... β-citronellol concentration went up..... just like Takoi, Sharp, Praet demonstrated
  • My conclusion is that the primary "target" of biotransformation in NEIPA: β-citronellol is misplaced. This compound occurs naturally in hops and increases in finished beer as a result of a CHEMICAL reaction not biotransformation.

Is my interest in biotransformation research gone? No
Do I still believe in biotransformation? Absolutely - the research is irrefutable that biotransformation does occur (This is the global warming discussion of brewing.)
Moving forward how will I incorporate biotransformation into my brewing ---- THIOLS for the Win! This is the next frontier in brewing research. Oil concentrations don't matter!


(I am gonna tag @Northern_Brewer to make sure he sees this since he is a chemistry research nerd like me and would love to get his thoughts)

 

[ttuato]

No comments after almost six days on the most popular thread on HBT, now I feel like crap - I broke tHread... please ignore my previous post and continue on with the good discussion on @Braufessor EXCELLENT NEIPA recipe

 

[Braufessor]

No comments after almost six days on the most popular thread on HBT, now I feel like crap - I broke tHread... please ignore my previous post and continue on with the good discussion on @Braufessor EXCELLENT NEIPA recipe

Ha....."broke the thread" - that is funny.

I had not even seen your last post..... seems like I get notifications here and there in regard to new posts. I will have to check it out - it looks like some interesting info.

 

[tld6008]

No comments after almost six days on the most popular thread on HBT, now I feel like crap - I broke tHread... please ignore my previous post and continue on with the good discussion on @Braufessor EXCELLENT NEIPA recipe

You can't break this thread, but I must admit your discussion is too technical for me.

 

[Dgallo]

I listened to a podcast recently and they stated that adding hops during fermentation for the sole purpose of gaining a biotransfermation effect is to no additional benefit. The arguement they made is that the essential oils from the hops are already in your wort from boil and whirlpool/hopstand additions and they will same potential to be biotransformed as ones being added during this fermentation. Their only reason for adding hops during fermentation is to introduce a specific hop that is not yet in the wort.

I thought this was pretty interesting. If you look at the theory, it does make sense. If the oils are already in the wort from previous addition, then they too would have the potential to be briotranformed.

 

[ttuato]

I listened to a podcast recently and they stated that adding hops during fermentation for the sole purpose of gaining a biotransfermation effect is to no additional benefit. The arguement they made is that the essential oils from the hops are already in your wort from boil and whirlpool/hopstand additions and they will same potential to be biotransformed as ones being added during this fermentation. Their only reason for adding hops during fermentation is to introduce a specific hop that is not yet in the wort.

I thought this was pretty interesting. If you look at the theory, it does make sense. If the oils are already in the wort from previous addition, then they too would have the potential to be briotranformed.

This is the shorter less technical version of my post. Thanks @Dgallo

Point of the post - dont dryhop at krausen expecting biotransformation instead load up the whirlpool hops if that is your goal. Dryhop at krausen for other goals (like LODO).

 

[stickyfinger]

This is the shorter less technical version of my post. Thanks @Dgallo

Point of the post - dont dryhop at krausen expecting biotransformation instead load up the whirlpool hops if that is your goal. Dryhop at krausen for other goals (like LODO).

i don't see the flavor advantage of adding the hops at whirlpool as opposed to early in fermentation. in both cases you'll get biotransformation, and I'm pretty sure you'll get more flavor per weight from the dryhop vs the whirlpool addition.

 

[Dgallo]

i don't see the flavor advantage of adding the hops at whirlpool as opposed to early in fermentation. in both cases you'll get biotransformation, and I'm pretty sure you'll get more flavor per weight from the dryhop vs the whirlpool addition.

I disagree here. The hot side is very important, imo crucial, to the overall flavor of the beer regardless of biotransformation or not. A simple comparison and experiment to prove this is take two 8 oz of water. Place 3 grams of hop pellets in it and let it set at room temp for 3 days(pseudo dryhop) Then on day 3 heat the other 8 oz of water to 160-170 and place 3 grams of hop pellets in it and try to maintain it for an hour. Then cool it to room temp. Then sample both. The sample with the seeped hops(pseudo hopstand) will have more flavor. Don’t just take my word for it. Try it yourself. Now I’m not claiming dryhopping isn’t important, because it is, but it’s more of a complement of flavor. A highly respected brewer who just opened his own brewery and is now local told me to try this when I asked him if I should be adding a majority of my hops in the dryhop to get the flavor.

 

[stickyfinger]

I disagree here. The hot side is very important, imo crucial, to the overall flavor of the beer regardless of biotransformation or not. A simple comparison and experiment to prove this is take two 8 oz of water. Place 3 grams of hop pellets in it and let it set at room temp for 3 days(pseudo dryhop) Then on day 3 heat the other 8 oz of water to 160-170 and place 3 grams of hop pellets in it and try to maintain it for an hour. Then cool it to room temp. Then sample both. The sample with the seeped hops(pseudo hopstand) will have more flavor. Don’t just take my word for it. Try it yourself. Now I’m not claiming dryhopping isn’t important, because it is, but it’s more of a complement of flavor. A highly respected brewer who just opened his own brewery and is now local told me to try this when I asked him if I should be adding a majority of my hops in the dryhop to get the flavor.

i have been wanting to do a dryhopped vs whirlpooled comparison for awhile, but i haven't wanted to have tons of the same ipa on tap. i guess i have to do it one of these days to convince myself.

 

[Dgallo]

i have been wanting to do a dryhopped vs whirlpooled comparison for awhile, but i haven't wanted to have tons of the same ipa on tap. i guess i have to do it one of these days to convince myself.

I think you’ll be surprised at the result. Obviously they will be similar but I truly think you find them different in their own respects

 

[SRJHops]

I think you’ll be surprised at the result. Obviously they will be similar but I truly think you find them different in their own respects

Great topic/info...thanks Dgallo.

If you were doing a whirlpool and double dry hop (for a NEIPA), would you split your hops equally three ways? 1/3 whirlpool; 1/3 biotrans addition day 1-2; 1/3 final dry hop before bottling?

 

[Dgallo]

Great topic/info...thanks Dgallo.

If you were doing a whirlpool and double dry hop (for a NEIPA), would you split your hops equally three ways? 1/3 whirlpool; 1/3 biotrans addition day 1-2; 1/3 final dry hop before bottling?

I personally don’t do a biotransfer very often. I used to do it but I’ve started to move away from it.

I’ve had a lot of luck with a 20-30% in boil 10min-F.O/ 50% in Whirlpool at 160/ 20-30% in dryhop (splitting my dryhop evenly for a ddh). This is something I stand by. Having some percentage of hops in boil provides full flavor not just back end flavor.

To answer your specific question for a NEIPA using no boil additions, I’d hammer the whirlpool and do 60-70% of the hops there. When fermentation starts, the oils provided by the whirlpool will take care of the potential to be biotranformed. Then I’d split my dryhop evenly. First round 5 days before packing in your serving vessel or bottles and then again 3-2 days before packing.

I’ve found that a smaller dryhop actually provides a cleaner, hop specific nose and complementary flavor than doing a huge dryhop. IMO when the dryhop is too big there is a lot of muddling going on and the beer also seem to degrade much faster. I also found this happens when you push the amount of hops over 10-12oz. More is not always better IMO. When you tone back the hops a tad, I feel they come across brighter.

 

[couchsending]

I’ve been moving more and more hops out of the whirlpool. Been moving them both into the boil slightly and into the dry hop more often than not.

20 or 10 or 5 minute additions bring a little more complexity in my mind.

No more dry hopping during fermentation either. It just muddies the flavors and reduces the overall impact of those hops.

I would say my overall hop quantities are starting to go back down but I’m getting better more clear expression of the hops now.

 

[Dgallo]

@SRJHops another thing I failed to mention is proper pitch and yeast health. I can not stress the importance of having a clean fermentation where you drive the fermentation properly to achieve a clean ester production. This is often overlooked but It essential to quality.

 

[Braufessor]

This is the shorter less technical version of my post. Thanks @Dgallo

Point of the post - dont dryhop at krausen expecting biotransformation instead load up the whirlpool hops if that is your goal. Dryhop at krausen for other goals (like LODO).

That is basically why I have transitioned to only 2 additions(plus maybe a half ounce for bittering earlier in boil) in my NEIPA's...... 6 ounces in whirlpool after chilling a bit because it seems to add a great hop punch (the bulk of "biotransformation" perhaps) and then another 6 ounces in dry hop on day 2-3 because it is still actively fermenting and helps to avoid oxygen and also avoid DMS possibilities with later dry hopping. Between the two additions, it gives me everything I am looking for in beers like this.

 

[GnenieGone]

That is basically why I have transitioned to only 2 additions(plus maybe a half ounce for bittering earlier in boil) in my NEIPA's...... 6 ounces in whirlpool after chilling a bit because it seems to add a great hop punch (the bulk of "biotransformation" perhaps) and then another 6 ounces in dry hop on day 2-3 because it is still actively fermenting and helps to avoid oxygen and also avoid DMS possibilities with later dry hopping. Between the two additions, it gives me everything I am looking for in beers like this.

@Braufessor. I have an Pinthouse Pizza Electric Jellyfish clone recipe v1. It's 18oz (14oz using Cryo) of hops in a 6gal batch, according to information I have from the head brewer. 4oz is boil/WP. Rest are post maybe ddh. Should I add 10oz of hops during fermentation? Or split? I have the LODO capability. Just curious on your thoughts.

 

[SRJHops]

I personally don’t do a biotransfer very often. I used to do it but I’ve started to move away from it.

I’ve had a lot of luck with a 20-30% in boil 10min-F.O/ 50% in Whirlpool at 160/ 20-30% in dryhop (splitting my dryhop evenly for a ddh). This is something I stand by. Having some percentage of hops in boil provides full flavor not just back end flavor.

To answer your specific question for a NEIPA using no boil additions, I’d hammer the whirlpool and do 60-70% of the hops there. When fermentation starts, the oils provided by the whirlpool will take care of the potential to be biotranformed. Then I’d split my dryhop evenly. First round 5 days before packing in your serving vessel or bottles and then again 3-2 days before packing.

I’ve found that a smaller dryhop actually provides a cleaner, hop specific nose and complementary flavor than doing a huge dryhop. IMO when the dryhop is too big there is a lot of muddling going on and the beer also seem to degrade much faster. I also found this happens when you push the amount of hops over 10-12oz. More is not always better IMO. When you tone back the hops a tad, I feel they come across brighter.

Great food for thought. I hear your focus on the whirlpool loud and clear, and I have to agree at this point. Because of my focus on avoiding oxygen, I have only been dry hopping on Day 2 during active fermentation, and the other 50% has been going into the whirlpool. The beers are turning out quite excellent -- I just need a little more aroma, which I think I would get with dry hopping closer to bottling. Now that I have my wine preserver gas and some other ideas for dry hopping and purging, next time I'll move some hops to a few days before bottling.

Any other tips for avoiding the muddling of hops flavors? I have seen people advise only dry hopping with a single type of hops. So for instance, whirlpool with citra, dry hop #1 with simcoe, and dry hop #2 with mosaic.

Hop quantities are also an interesting discussion. I used 18 ounces in my 6-gallon NEIPA last time and it turned out great, but I'd love to test your point about lower quantities by perhaps putting more into the whirlpool and decreasing the dry hop totals. (I do get the sense that some of my favorite local NEIPAs use a ton of hops, though, because it settles into the bottom of my glass!)

So far I haven't been adding any hops to the boil. I seem to get enough bitterness without adding any to the boil, though I would be willing to try adding some in at 10 mins and skipping the knockout addition, though I'm not sure it would matter too much?

 

[SRJHops]

@Braufessor. I have an Pinthouse Pizza Electric Jellyfish clone recipe v1. It's 18oz (14oz using Cryo) of hops in a 6gal batch, according to information I have from the head brewer. 4oz is boil/WP. Rest are post maybe ddh. Should I add 10oz of hops during fermentation? Or split? I have the LODO capability. Just curious on your thoughts.

Holy moly - isn't cryo like TWICE the strength of regular hops? So that recipe is the equivalent of what, 30+ ounces of hops in a 6 gallon batch?

 

[GnenieGone]

Holy moly - isn't cryo like TWICE the strength of regular hops? So that recipe is the equivalent of what, 30+ ounces of hops in a 6 gallon batch?

Azacca and Galaxy are not cryo. Cryo is about 1.8 of regular. I did the calculation. For the record as is, using fresh yeast and 1oz hops packages from LHBS, this is a $90 brew. [emoji22]

 

[ryanm8]

I have settled on a small addition of boil hops, large addition for whirlpool, and large dry hop on day 6. I bottle on day 10, so the dry hop is for the last 4 days.

I think my beers have come out better than when adding hops during fermentation. The hop aroma explodes out of the bottle when I open it, and no oxygen issues.

 

[Dgallo]

Any other tips for avoiding the muddling of hops flavors? I have seen people advise only dry hopping with a single type of hops. So for instance, whirlpool with citra, dry hop #1 with simcoe, and dry hop #2 with mosaic.

So far I haven't been adding any hops to the boil. I seem to get enough bitterness without adding any to the boil, though I would be willing to try adding some in at 10 mins and skipping the knockout addition, though I'm not sure it would matter too much?

Purging with co2. Having a fermenter where you can close transfer is important (don’t know if you have this). If you can’t take the hit to go stainless yet, the fermonsters with the port are very good for a plastic FV.

Another thing to explore, which I believe I brought up before where I got some backlash from the die hard bottle conditioners is switching to kegging. Big upfront cost I know but it certainly pays for itself in time and longevity of beer quality. Bottling conditioning requires at minimum one more transfer, typically two, which can pick up oxygen. Also the neck holds oxygen which will be forced ainto the beer along with CO2 during conditioning. That’s all about that. Now to aroma.

I believe yeast is a big component here for actual scent, as well as helps the hops shine. If you have a clean fermentation that produces the intended esters w/o allowing the yeast to throw acetaldehyde and other biproducts that contribute to off flavors, you will get a greater expression from the hops. You’re looking for the proper pitch rate where you drive the temps and finish fast, within 3-4 days. Then give it a rest for about 4 days in the low 70s for it to clean itself up. To be honest I only use about 3 oz in my dryhop. Guys in my club always get complement me for my aromas and look at me puzzled when I tell them I only use a total of a 3 oz dryhop.

 

[Sbe2]

I’ve been moving more and more hops out of the whirlpool. Been moving them both into the boil slightly and into the dry hop more often than not.

20 or 10 or 5 minute additions bring a little more complexity in my mind.

No more dry hopping during fermentation either. It just muddies the flavors and reduces the overall impact of those hops.

I would say my overall hop quantities are starting to go back down but I’m getting better more clear expression of the hops now.

Definitely on this train.

Most recent was Citra 20, Galaxy 10, citra/galaxy 5, WP, DH with 2 pts left.

 

[couchsending]

Ounce for ounce Dry hop quantities will give you considerably more impact than whirlpool. Especially if you can dry hop after soft cooling and pulling as much yeast out of the beer as possible before adding hops. All under positive pressure of course. If you are bottling or fermenting in carboys where it’s tough to keep oxygen at bay then whirlpool hops will probably have a bigger impact on your final beer.

If you listen to any of the big guys talk, the guys that win the medals for hoppy beers, everyone is talking about moving hops out of the whirlpool and into the dry hop.

If you can mimmick their process (which is getting easier and easier on the homebrew scale) this is the way to go for maximum impact.

Also in regards to pitch rate and speed of fermentation.. there’s plenty of info out there that points to the opposite actually. Pitching the bare minimum amount of yeast to get a healthy fermentation is ideal for hoppy beers. The more yeast and the faster the fermentation the less hop oils will end up in the finished beer. Julian from Beechwood, Jeff from La Cumbre both preach this. I think Jeff pitches 001 at .4/ml/*plato. Kimmich pitches Conan at around the same rate. A colder slow fermentation is also shown to blow off less aromatics as well. Unless you’ve got a microscope I wound the really mess with this though.

 

[ttuato]

Great topic/info...thanks Dgallo.

If you were doing a whirlpool and double dry hop (for a NEIPA), would you split your hops equally three ways? 1/3 whirlpool; 1/3 biotrans addition day 1-2; 1/3 final dry hop before bottling?

First: I would recommend that folks review this slide deck - lots of amazing info compiled into one presentation. https://www.craftbrewersconference....hopping-Beer-Achieving-Consistent-Flavor1.pdf (I will include screenshots in my response to above.)

Second, in response to your question @SRJHops I would challenge you to not think of hopping amounts in fractions of batch total, but rather amounts based on goals per each timing.

BOIL - 15-30IBU or none. Some like a bitterness backbone rather than straight juice - I target 15-20IBU using CTZ. To me it gives a more rounded flavor profile see TH Julius

WHIRLPOOL - 1oz / gallon. Modify amounts if using high cohumulone hops (e.g Vic Secret). Pick based on desired primary flavor and supplemental aroma profile (assuming a dryhop is used in conjunction). Here is a study that shows the differences of lots of hops of flavors produced and intensity of WP vs Dryhop. This study was done at 1/2 oz per gallon. I dont recall why/where I landed on 1oz but I am sure that Scott Janish had something to do with it. My personal experience with Simcoe, Galaxy, Citra is comparable. I thought it was interesting that Mosaic was basically the same regardless of WP or DH (thiols mainly responsible and not change???)

DRY HOP - 1-1.75oz per gallon TOTAL amount. Pick based on desired primary aroma and supplementary flavor profile. Modify amounts if using high cohumulone hops (e.g Vic Secret) - bitterness extracted during dry hop will not diminish over time. I personally do not do a krausen dry hop any more. In my experience it muddles flavors as others have mentioned. If you DO dry hop at krausen, use 1.75oz / gallon because when the yeast drop, they will pull some of the oils out of suspension. If you dry hop after FG then go for 1-1.5oz/gallon total for maximum desired effect. More than that will introduced vegetal/herbal flavors & excess polyphenols. Here is key slides from dryhop dosing study using cascade hops from presentation that I linked earlier. Although this cascade hops, other studies and ancedotal evidence point to similar conclusion of the amounts provided above

• 3.8g/l = 0.5oz/gal
• 8g/l = 1oz/gal
• 12g/l = 1.6oz/gal (not in test but you will see why this provided)
• 16g/l = 2.1oz/gal

 

[ttuato]

(I do get the sense that some of my favorite local NEIPAs use a ton of hops, though, because it settles into the bottom of my glass!)

Find another brewery... this is the epitome of bad brewing practices in my opinion. As a consumer at a brewery you should never experience hop debris in you glass. They are rushing the beer to market too fast resulting in an inferior product.

More hops does not equal better IPA.

 

[ttuato]

i have been wanting to do a dryhopped vs whirlpooled comparison for awhile, but i haven't wanted to have tons of the same ipa on tap. i guess i have to do it one of these days to convince myself.

Brulosophy did exactly this and it was the most significant exbeeriment to date. http://brulosophy.com/2016/02/29/hop-stand-vs-dry-hop-exbeeriment-results/ Folks greatly preferred the dry hop only beer.

Curious, I did it myself and my results fell in line with what Denny & Experimental Brew Crew found. Separately each produces a good beer (dryhop only was better of the two). But when combined/blended - no question - it produced a better beer.


This lead to my current "experiment". When I started brewing I did the recommended "dry hop learning test" of putting a few grams in SN Pale, recapping and then tasting. Now that I have a few dozen brews under my belt plus my learnings from the above experiment. I have decided to brew a whirlpool only batch of my preferred WP blend for NEIPA (Simcoe, Citra, Bravo, Moteuka) and then repeat the "dry hop learning test" with this brew. No more guessing on what will be a "good" blend from my stock of 12 different hops to brew 5 gallons of. I will bottle 4.2 grams of hops in 12oz bottle is (1.6oz/gal or 12g/L). Let it sit for a day this crash chill it and taste.

 

[SRJHops]

Find another brewery... this is the epitome of bad brewing practices in my opinion. As a consumer at a brewery you should never experience hop debris in you glass. They are rushing the beer to market too fast resulting in an inferior product.

More hops does not equal better IPA.

It was beer from cans, but perhaps you are correct. Still, there are some amazing NEIPAs being made here in the Twin Cities. The one with the debris is super-tasty and one of the best I've ever had. Unless I am mixing it up with one from Blackstack (a great brewery), I believe the beer with the debris was a collaboration between Fair State and Barrel Theory, two of the best NEIPA makers around. (I also don't mind a little hop debris, really.)

I haven't had the original East Coast beers that everyone talks about, but I've had a lot of national NEIPA versions (from Sierra Nevada, Sam Adams, New Belgium) that can't touch the local brews, probably because I'm getting them a few days after canning, but I'm pretty sure they are using a lot more hops.

The only semi-regional beer I can mention being more awesome is just about anything from Toppling Goliath in Iowa. King Sue is amazing, and they just started sending 4-pack cans of Sosus up here! Pompeii is no slouch either. They don't call their beers NEIPA's, but it's pretty clear they are using a ton of hops to get such amazing flavor and aroma. If they aren't, then I really really want to get some clone recipes and see how much hops to use to get their kind of flavor!

 

[SRJHops]

First: I would recommend that folks review this slide deck - lots of amazing info compiled into one presentation. https://www.craftbrewersconference....hopping-Beer-Achieving-Consistent-Flavor1.pdf (I will include screenshots in my response to above.)

Second, in response to your question @SRJHops I would challenge you to not think of hopping amounts in fractions of batch total, but rather amounts based on goals per each timing.

BOIL - 15-30IBU or none. Some like a bitterness backbone rather than straight juice - I target 15-20IBU using CTZ. To me it gives a more rounded flavor profile see TH Julius

WHIRLPOOL - 1oz / gallon. Modify amounts if using high cohumulone hops (e.g Vic Secret). Pick based on desired primary flavor and supplemental aroma profile (assuming a dryhop is used in conjunction). Here is a study that shows the differences of lots of hops of flavors produced and intensity of WP vs Dryhop. This study was done at 1/2 oz per gallon. I dont recall why/where I landed on 1oz but I am sure that Scott Janish had something to do with it. My personal experience with Simcoe, Galaxy, Citra is comparable. I thought it was interesting that Mosaic was basically the same regardless of WP or DH (thiols mainly responsible and not change???)

View attachment 606707

DRY HOP - 1-1.75oz per gallon TOTAL amount. Pick based on desired primary aroma and supplementary flavor profile. Modify amounts if using high cohumulone hops (e.g Vic Secret) - bitterness extracted during dry hop will not diminish over time. I personally do not do a krausen dry hop any more. In my experience it muddles flavors as others have mentioned. If you DO dry hop at krausen, use 1.75oz / gallon because when the yeast drop, they will pull some of the oils out of suspension. If you dry hop after FG then go for 1-1.5oz/gallon total for maximum desired effect. More than that will introduced vegetal/herbal flavors & excess polyphenols. Here is key slides from dryhop dosing study using cascade hops from presentation that I linked earlier. Although this cascade hops, other studies and ancedotal evidence point to similar conclusion of the amounts provided above

• 3.8g/l = 0.5oz/gal
• 8g/l = 1oz/gal
• 12g/l = 1.6oz/gal (not in test but you will see why this provided)
• 16g/l = 2.1oz/gal

View attachment 606709
View attachment 606710
View attachment 606711

Whoa! This is a ton of great info - thank you! I especially appreciate the hop calculations.

From this discussion, it really seems like a lot of people have moved beyond dry hopping during active fermentation, and I agree with the reasoning since there is already a lot of hops in the wort from the whirlpool.

So, while I am still digesting some of your charts and info, it appears that for my 6 gallon batch you would recommend 6 ounces in the whirlpool and 6-9 ounces in late dry hop after FG. I haven't been adding any hops to the boil, because I am getting enough bitterness from a knockout addition. But maybe another few ounces added to the boil, so my total would be 14-17 ounces, correct?

 

[ttuato]

It was beer from cans, but perhaps you are correct. Still, there are some amazing NEIPAs being made here in the Twin Cities. The one with the debris is super-tasty and one of the best I've ever had. Unless I am mixing it up with one from Blackstack (a great brewery), I believe the beer with the debris was a collaboration between Fair State and Barrel Theory, two of the best NEIPA makers around. (I also don't mind a little hop debris, really.)

I haven't had the original East Coast beers that everyone talks about, but I've had a lot of national NEIPA versions (from Sierra Nevada, Sam Adams, New Belgium) that can't touch the local brews, probably because I'm getting them a few days after canning, but I'm pretty sure they are using a lot more hops.

The only semi-regional beer I can mention being more awesome is just about anything from Toppling Goliath in Iowa. King Sue is amazing, and they just started sending 4-pack cans of Sosus up here! Pompeii is no slouch either. They don't call their beers NEIPA's, but it's pretty clear they are using a ton of hops to get such amazing flavor and aroma. If they aren't, then I really really want to get some clone recipes and see how much hops to use to get their kind of flavor!

National versions are nothing like micro brew close to home. King Sue is crazy good.

Not sure if disto'ed there but it you can get it try M43 out of Michigan. This beer recipe was crowdsourced from homebrewers - really cool history to this brewery & beer. It is an outstanding example that is relatively close to you vs big boys - TH, Veil, TiredHands, Weldwerks, Monkish, etc

Having said that - follow @Braufessor recipe to the letter, with good cold side low oxygen practices and you will brew one of the better NEIPAs that you will every taste.

 

[Dgallo]

I’m willing to do trades @couchsending and @ttuato to compare the outcome of our different processes. I’m confident in mine which I’m sure you both are with yours. I’m interested in seeing how different they are

 

[Braufessor]

@Braufessor. I have an Pinthouse Pizza Electric Jellyfish clone recipe v1. It's 18oz (14oz using Cryo) of hops in a 6gal batch, according to information I have from the head brewer. 4oz is boil/WP. Rest are post maybe ddh. Should I add 10oz of hops during fermentation? Or split? I have the LODO capability. Just curious on your thoughts.

I think if I was adding that amount of hops, and if you have the means to limit dangers of oxygen/DMS - I would do two dry hops. Although, honestly, if the recipe is good, and you plan on making it multiple times..... I would just try a couple different methods and see what you like best. In all honesty, I have tried all kinds of variations with water profiles, grain bills, yeasts, hop schedules...... I am still waiting for something that blows me away as "significantly" different or better. Almost all of the changes and versions I have done end up being variations on a fairly similar end product.

 

[Braufessor]

Azacca and Galaxy are not cryo. Cryo is about 1.8 of regular. I did the calculation. For the record as is, using fresh yeast and 1oz hops packages from LHBS, this is a $90 brew. [emoji22]

YIKES..... I can buy 100 pounds of Weyerman Barke variety malt for that much $$.

 

[Braufessor]

It was beer from cans, but perhaps you are correct. Still, there are some amazing NEIPAs being made here in the Twin Cities. The one with the debris is super-tasty and one of the best I've ever had. Unless I am mixing it up with one from Blackstack (a great brewery), I believe the beer with the debris was a collaboration between Fair State and Barrel Theory, two of the best NEIPA makers around. (I also don't mind a little hop debris, really.)

I haven't had the original East Coast beers that everyone talks about, but I've had a lot of national NEIPA versions (from Sierra Nevada, Sam Adams, New Belgium) that can't touch the local brews, probably because I'm getting them a few days after canning, but I'm pretty sure they are using a lot more hops.

The only semi-regional beer I can mention being more awesome is just about anything from Toppling Goliath in Iowa. King Sue is amazing, and they just started sending 4-pack cans of Sosus up here! Pompeii is no slouch either. They don't call their beers NEIPA's, but it's pretty clear they are using a ton of hops to get such amazing flavor and aroma. If they aren't, then I really really want to get some clone recipes and see how much hops to use to get their kind of flavor!

This last batch of Sosus was really great I thought..... I liked it better than the batch of King Sue they just released. I got some super fresh cans from Hill Farmstead that were all mosaic - I was able to drink them head to head with Sosus, and the Sosus was every bit as good as the Hill Farmstead. Saying a lot because, for my money, Hill Farmstead puts out the most consistently great beer you can find from the "big names".

I will say, I like leaving TG's cans sit still in the fridge for a week and then I pour them gently..... I leave the last ounce or so behind in the can. They can have a lot of yeast/sediment in some of the cans. I think their beer is better when you let that fall out. The Sosus cans were like that. Even letting them settle out, the beer poured nice and hazy/bright leaving the clumpy yeast or sediment behind in the can.

 

[ttuato]

Correct!
@SRJHops

For 6 gallons I use these amounts

I only use 1/2 -3/4oz of CTZ in boil for 30 min for bitterness only OR sometimes I use 1oz at 15min if to add some flavor to go along with bitterness. These amounts result in 15-20 IBUs

6oz whirlpool
6-9oz dryhop. I use lower end when using galaxy, mosaic, or Vic secret in the mix because they are so pungent and can overwhelm other varieties. For the braufessor CMG blend I use 3oz Citra and 2oz each Galaxy & Mosiac.