No Chill Case Study

[flyangler18]

In that same episode they write off no chill brewing as well.

That's patently wrong. Jamil does not write it off at all; in fact, both he and Palmer recognize that the process can make very good beer. The rest of the peanut gallery on the show are another matter entirely. Palmer goes on to say that if you maintain a rolling boil of the appropriate length, then the method of cooling becomes less important.

If you listen to the episode with about 5 minutes remaining, you'll hear what I'm talking about.

The reality is, everyone has their own threshold levels regarding process, quality and assumed risk. I don't doubt that no-chill brewing can produce very good beer, but we're all guilty of self-evaluating our beers so that must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[craigd]

come on Pol, there has to be at least ONE downside to no chill!

You've busted DMS, chill haze, cold break, cost, water use in chilling, etc, etc.

can you throw us a bone?

OK, some of the Aussies have mentioned weak hop aroma and flavor. This too has been worked around though with dry hopping and shifting the flavor hop timing to later or even in the cube I have heard.

Pol, have you changed your hop schedule at all to compensate or have you even needed to?

 

[The Pol]

OK, some of the Aussies have mentioned weak hop aroma and flavor. This too has been worked around though with dry hopping and shifting the flavor hop timing to later or even in the cube I have heard.

Pol, have you changed your hop schedule at all to compensate or have you even needed to?

I created a hop addition chart for no chill, it is in several places here on HBT. It is probably not perfect, but it helps and many have used it.

 

[The Pol]

That's patently wrong. Jamil does not write it off at all; in fact, both he and Palmer recognize that the process can make very good beer. The rest of the peanut gallery on the show are another matter entirely. Palmer goes on to say that if you maintain a rolling boil of the appropriate length, then the method of cooling becomes less important.

If you listen to the episode with about 5 minutes remaining, you'll hear what I'm talking about.

The reality is, everyone has their own threshold levels regarding process, quality and assumed risk. I don't doubt that no-chill brewing can produce very good beer, but we're all guilty of self-evaluating our beers so that must be taken with a grain of salt.

I will have to go back and listen to it, but I dont recall them saying that it can make very good beer. My bad.

"But still BUY MY WHIRLPOOL CHLLER OR DIE!" ha ha

 

[Tonedef131]

You keep saying that he wants people to buy "his" whirlpool chiller. He does not build or sell those, he is simply telling people what process he has found to be most effective for chilling. I think Jamil is as big of a pompous ********* as the next guy but you are making it sound like he is trying to capitalize of something that you can't even buy. It's something you have to build yourself...actually it's pretty much just a pump added to an immersion chiller.

 

[flyangler18]

"But still BUY MY WHIRLPOOL CHLLER OR DIE!" ha ha

Say what you will about him, but it's difficult to argue with all those awards.

For the record, I use a CFC - less exhaust water, self-contained, more efficient than a typical IC. It's served me well over many batches.

 

[The Pol]

You keep saying that he wants people to buy "his" whirlpool chiller. He does not build or sell those, he is simply telling people what process he has found to be most effective for chilling. I think Jamil is as big of a pompous ********* as the next guy but you are making it sound like he is trying to capitalize of something that you can't even buy. It's something you have to build yourself...actually it's pretty much just a pump added to an immersion chiller.

You cant buy it? Better go look at B3, whome if I recall, he has a close relationship with. Not like they mention JAMIL in the ad. No... you are right. I am sure there is no kickback since he invented it and B3 is selling it for him.

http://morebeer.com/view_product/9146//Wort_Chiller_Recirculation_Package_-_Option_One

 

[Tonedef131]

You mean you cant buy the components at B3? Whome he has a close relationship with, did they remove the equipement from thier site?

Yeah I am sure you can buy them from B3...and Northern Brewer, and Midwest, and Austin, and Brewers Warehouse...and any reputable homebrew shop in the world that sells immersion chillers and march pumps.

 

[flyangler18]

See for yourself.

 

[The Pol]

Yeah I am sure you can buy them from B3...and Northern Brewer, and Midwest, and Austin, and Brewers Warehouse...and any reputable homebrew shop in the world that sells immersion chillers and march pumps.

With his NAME IN THE AD, and he is he INVENTOR... so, you really think he gets NOTHING from that? You are right, completely unbiased.

 

[Tonedef131]

With his NAME IN THE AD, and he is he INVENTOR... so, you really think he gets NOTHING from that? You are right, completely unbiased.

I have no idea man but you seem to be pretty convinced that he is making a fortune off of that $12 piece of tubing by pushing it all over an internet radio show that he volunteers for and does for free. So you must be right that even though he is filthy rich he is really digging for his $0.83 royalties off of each copper chunk sold by his LHBS even though on his own website he says "I have no financial interest in this at all. I think you could make this yourself fairly easy without ever buying anything from a homebrew shop."

I have also heard him mention this numerous times on the shows and never one mention B3 in the same segment.

 

[flyangler18]

With his NAME IN THE AD, and he is he INVENTOR... so, you really think he gets NOTHING from that?

I doubt he holds a patent on the device. Check the page on Mr. Malty where he states he does not benefit financially from the WIC, or even better, email him and ask him yourself. I've done so many times and always found him to be pleasant and cordial.

I gotta say, Pol, your arrogance is pretty astounding.

 

[The Pol]

Yah, I am arrogant, welcome to most of HBT. Because I claim what? That I know better? That the processes I use are better? Best? The only? Must haves? Must use? Anything else is inferior?

 

[flyangler18]

Yah, I am arrogant, welcome to most of HBT. Because I claim what? That I know better? That the processes I use are better? Best? The only? Must haves? Must use? Anything else is inferior?

Thanks for making this all about you as usual.

Have fun stroking your ego.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks for making this all about you as usual.

Have fun stroking your ego.

It would be more fun, if youd stop by and stroke it for me....

 

[Whiskey]

I have to disagree with the Pol on this one, I'd doubt he's getting a kick back. It is more likely they are using his name to sell a product. Kind of like on HBT folks will use his name as like he is the messiah of home brewing, "Jamil said he never uses a secondary, therefor it must be true" etc, ad nauseum.

It would be kind of like if Flyangler18 started selling all electric brew stands based after The Pols design, and touted them as being "As seen in BYO, and invented by HBT'er The Pol". Just using a name or association to sell a product, people are that stupid.

 

[Homercidal]

Can we get back on track here? I'm only interested in results of no chill brewing. I could care less if Jamil gets any money for his "invention" or not.

I think the thing that he tries to get across in his podcast is that he uses only the BEST process that he can do. That might mean not taking any chance at all with chilling, which is why he goes to the extreme of using a WIC. The question is, does it really help? Or does he win awards because of the other things he is doing right?

My comment on submitting no chill beers to experts means that I think the process would get more recognition if it won awards, or at least got professional feedback to indicate if there is any problem with the process.

Just having some people drink your beer doesn't carry the same weight as being recognized by trained professionals (BJCP judges), who can compare it directly with other beers of similar style.

Only when this type of feedback is had will anyone take this seriously. There are too many naysayers in this hobby (even with the large number of experimenters) to try and make a push for it's use without that kind of attention.

 

[Homercidal]

Also, I don't personally know Jamil, but a guy at work has emailed him a question or two and always gotten a very friendly and helpful response right away. I've heard similar stories by others. So, even if he does get money for helping to sell a product, at least he seems to be a person who honestly cares about helping people make better homebrew.

 

[The Pol]

I have to disagree with the Pol on this one, I'd doubt he's getting a kick back. It is more likely they are using his name to sell a product. Kind of like on HBT folks will use his name as like he is the messiah of home brewing, "Jamil said he never uses a secondary, therefor it must be true" etc, ad nauseum.

It would be kind of like if Flyangler18 started selling all electric brew stands based after The Pols design, and touted them as being "As seen in BYO, and invented by HBT'er The Pol". Just using a name or association to sell a product, people are that stupid.

You may be right, but I neer stated that he was getting a kickback, if you read my post. It is possible with his association, but then again I dont have all of Jamils personal info... so I dont know this. Others do, so I stand corrected.

To that end, if I invent something, I will be a strong proponent of it... obviously. Otherwise I would not have invented it.

I know some of you typically dont like what I have to say, but if you want to have a discussion about your personal feelings, just PM me so we can talk about it instead of tainting the threads.

 

[The Pol]

There are a few BJCP judges in a club in Louisville that are going to be getting some no chill to try. An HBTer here is in thier club and a friend of mine.

I will have several to send. An SNPA, Blonde, and Hefe

I just need to build the non-beer gun beer gun

 

[Tonedef131]

My comment on submitting no chill beers to experts means that I think the process would get more recognition if it won awards, or at least got professional feedback to indicate if there is any problem with the process.

Just having some people drink your beer doesn't carry the same weight as being recognized by trained professionals (BJCP judges), who can compare it directly with other beers of similar style.

Only when this type of feedback is had will anyone take this seriously. There are too many naysayers in this hobby (even with the large number of experimenters) to try and make a push for it's use without that kind of attention.

I am interested enough to pursue this. I think I am going to do a ten gallon batch, so it is the exact same wort. Transfer half of it to a vessel without chilling, then chill the other half in a traditional method. Ferment them out at the same temperature with the same pitch of yeast.

I am an active BJCP judge as are 4 other guys in my club. I would issue a completely blind triangle test and see if we can pick up any differences between the two beers. I would also be willing to send these into a competition, probably whatever was going on in the surrounding states when it was ready.

 

[The Pol]

I am interested enough to pursue this. I think I am going to do a ten gallon batch, so it is the exact same wort. Transfer half of it to a vessel without chilling, then chill the other half in a traditional method. Ferment them out at the same temperature with the same pitch of yeast.

I am an active BJCP judge as are 4 other guys in my club. I would issue a completely blind triangle test and see if we can pick up any differences between the two beers. I would also be willing to send these into a competition, probably whatever was going on in the surrounding states when it was ready.

There will be one problem with splitting the wort... there will be unequal hop utilization... so they will taste quite different if you have late hop additions. The worts will be different, even from the same boil

 

[Tonedef131]

There will be one problem with splitting the wort... there will be unequal hop utilization... so they will taste quite different if you have late hop additions. The worts will be different, even from the same boil

I will likely do this with a bitter I have coming up soon, so it will only have a 60min and a 30min addition. Although I don't care that much because I will be looking more for flaws that are commonly brought up during these threads. If the hop utilization is different then so be it...byproduct of the process.

Are you guys putting these in the fridge or just letting them hang out at room temp?

 

[Homercidal]

There will be one problem with splitting the wort... there will be unequal hop utilization... so they will taste quite different if you have late hop additions. The worts will be different, even from the same boil

Damn, you're right. Plus, I think it would be better to chill the first half, and then package the no chill. Because, anyone who is using a chiller will be getting that puppy flowing right away. Having to wait to transfer the no chill half will skew the results too.

Obviously, this is not possible for those who use an IC.

 

[The Pol]

I will likely do this with a bitter I have coming up soon, so it will only have a 60min and a 30min addition. Although I don't care that much because I will be looking more for flaws that are commonly brought up during these threads. If the hop utilization is different then so be it...byproduct of the process.

Are you guys putting these in the fridge or just letting them hang out at room temp?

I have found that a 65F ambient temp will get 5.5 gallons to 68F in 18 hours

70F ambient temp takes 24 hours or so to get to 70F

I generally sit mine outside overnight, if it is hot, the ferment fridge at 65F

 

[Tonedef131]

Damn, you're right. Plus, I think it would be better to chill the first half, and then package the no chill. Because, anyone who is using a chiller will be getting that puppy flowing right away. Having to wait to transfer the no chill half will skew the results too.

Obviously, this is not possible for those who use an IC.

Well I have a plate chiller that I stopped using but I could bust it out for this. Just let the whole lot sit there while I pull 5 gal through the chiller, then put the remaining 5 gal into the bucket.

Where are you guys getting these "cubes" and are you just dumping the whole lot into it or transferring through heat resistant tubing?

 

[The Pol]

Well I have a plate chiller that I stopped using but I could bust it out for this. Just let the whole lot sit there while I pull 5 gal through the chiller, then put the remaining 5 gal into the bucket.

Where are you guys getting these "cubes" and are you just dumping the whole lot into it or transferring through heat resistant tubing?

US Plastics sells a thing called a Winpak... 6 gallon HDPE container. I use silicone to transfer to the bottom of the container from my BK. I know, HSA doesnt exist right? Well, with all of the unknowns with his process, I try to keep the potential variables to a minimum.

 

[The Pol]

Winpak® Tight Head Pail - US Plastic Corporation

Here is a link to the 6 gallon. If you are not going to store it, you can use it and ferment in it. I have found that the headspace is such that you will be smart to use a blow off with it, or foam control.

EDIT: Also, the hole in the top requires a #11.5 stopper, if you arent drilling a hole for the airlock/blowoff

 

[Homercidal]

Ok, so I probably wont' be doing this in the very near future, but it's still very interesting. So now that my pipeline is full, I will probably brew again after I get bored welding on my car, or if someone I know wants to have a brew day. My next batch ought to be a Belgian Wit, which uses late hop additions (well, orange peel and coriander), so that probably wont' work very well.

Anyway, I'm still very curious about the DMS and Chill Haze issue. DMS being the more important to me. I really don't mind a bit of haze. I was reading up on Jamil's WIC thingy and I found something interesting in his description of it's benefits. Check it out:

"DMS is often described as a cooked corn aroma that often plagues lager brewers. The thing is, the lighter pilsner malts contain more SMM (S-Methylmethionine), which gets hydrolyzed to DMS during the boil. Yes, this gets driven off, but unless you're doing 100 minute or longer boils, there is still some SMM left behind. The neat thing is, if you can get the temperature of the wort below 140F (60C), then SMM will not be converted to DMS. The whirlpool immersion chiller will drop the temp of the wort below 140F (60C) very quickly, resulting in far less DMS in the finished beer. On the other hand, counter flow and plate chillers continue to hydrolyze SMM into DMS while sitting there at near boiling."

So, it really seems that even Jamil admits that DMS might not be a big concern for Ale brewers, or those not brewing lighter styles, just as we've heard from some in this thread. Also I believe I read that in Palmer's book last night, although of course he advocates limiting the possibility as much as you can.

 

[The Pol]

Ok, so I probably wont' be doing this in the very near future, but it's still very interesting. So now that my pipeline is full, I will probably brew again after I get bored welding on my car, or if someone I know wants to have a brew day. My next batch ought to be a Belgian Wit, which uses late hop additions (well, orange peel and coriander), so that probably wont' work very well.

Anyway, I'm still very curious about the DMS and Chill Haze issue. DMS being the more important to me. I really don't mind a bit of haze. I was reading up on Jamil's WIC thingy and I found something interesting in his description of it's benefits. Check it out:

"DMS is often described as a cooked corn aroma that often plagues lager brewers. The thing is, the lighter pilsner malts contain more SMM (S-Methylmethionine), which gets hydrolyzed to DMS during the boil. Yes, this gets driven off, but unless you're doing 100 minute or longer boils, there is still some SMM left behind. The neat thing is, if you can get the temperature of the wort below 140F (60C), then SMM will not be converted to DMS. The whirlpool immersion chiller will drop the temp of the wort below 140F (60C) very quickly, resulting in far less DMS in the finished beer. On the other hand, counter flow and plate chillers continue to hydrolyze SMM into DMS while sitting there at near boiling."

So, it really seems that even Jamil admits that DMS might not be a big concern for Ale brewers, or those not brewing lighter styles, just as we've heard from some in this thread. Also I believe I read that in Palmer's book last night, although of course he advocates limiting the possibility as much as you can.

Yes, I listened to the DMS broadcast when I was beginning no chill... and the SMM in Pilsner malt is the real DMS issue from what I hear, though never tested it. They also claim that even with Pilsner malt, a vigorous boil for 90+ minutes will make the DMS not much of an issue anyway. Though, not tested in my garage.

Apparently even Pale Malt 2-row is kilned to a degree that reduces the SMM to a negligible amount.

I will admit that with my beers I was doing 90 minute boils even before no chill. When I started no chilling, I kept the 90 minute boil and have acutally increased it to 100. Now, if I were using propane, Id probably reduce it to save $$ and see how far I could go, maybe 60 is enough. Though, I did notice an improvement in my beer when going from 60-90 minute boils.

 

[Homercidal]

I have never boiled for longer than 60 minutes.

 

[hal2814]

I am interested enough to pursue this. I think I am going to do a ten gallon batch, so it is the exact same wort. Transfer half of it to a vessel without chilling, then chill the other half in a traditional method. Ferment them out at the same temperature with the same pitch of yeast.

I am an active BJCP judge as are 4 other guys in my club. I would issue a completely blind triangle test and see if we can pick up any differences between the two beers. I would also be willing to send these into a competition, probably whatever was going on in the surrounding states when it was ready.

Excellent! If I may make a suggestion, try to keep enough samples on hand to continue to test over an extended period.

Also, we interrupt the no chill debate with some news: the no chill IPA (our test subject) is completely clear at 38F. Taste results will happen this evening along with the mass upload of images. I'll have to scale them down and would rather do all of that at the same time for this post.

So besides basic viability, the "creamed corn" off-flavor is my primary concern, correct?

Also, the results are going to go on the first post as an edit if possible. I'll add a final post to alert everyone when the results are officially in.

 

[MMW]

I'm not really sure what to look for in a sample this old. What does unstable beer taste like, anyway?

Very interested in the results.

 

[smellysell]

My Winpaks are finally going to be here Thursday. Can't wait to give this a try!

 

[The Pol]

I'm not really sure what to look for in a sample this old. What does unstable beer taste like, anyway?

Very interested in the results.

Well, I think with a sample like this you will be looking for staling. Carboard taste? The corn would be DMS, I suppose you can look for that but it shouldnt be more prevelant over a long period than it would be when the beer is young, as far as I know.

Obviously this old of an IPA, will lose a lot of the hop character, but look for off flavors, not absence of flaver persay.

 

[bkov]

i have been doing no-chiller for awhile......in the winter when i dont want to use the outdoor hose, and then my chiller broke so i havent been using it either

i usually just put the lid on the pot after then wait untill late that night to transfer to primary

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I doubt he holds a patent on the device. Check the page on Mr. Malty where he states he does not benefit financially from the WIC, or even better, email him and ask him yourself. I've done so many times and always found him to be pleasant and cordial.

I gotta say, Pol, your arrogance is pretty astounding.

Yah, I am arrogant, welcome to most of HBT. Because I claim what? That I know better? That the processes I use are better? Best? The only? Must haves? Must use? Anything else is inferior?

Thanks for making this all about you as usual.

Have fun stroking your ego.

It would be more fun, if youd stop by and stroke it for me....

Now *THAT'S* entertainment!

 

[hal2814]

reuslts are in. back up to page 1, post 1.

 

[The Pol]

Well... Id expect it to be clear. Most no chill guys have not had any lingering haze. I guess since it was flat, there was obviously no CO2, and there would probably be ample O2 in there. That being said, would we expect anything OTHER than cardboard beer in this case?

Does this prove anything, since the beer was obviously oxidized from the poor seal?

 

[beerocd]

Now *THAT'S* entertainment!

I don't think there's enough of this type of entertainment; everyone's too damn nice on this board.

I've done no chill out of necessity; but if I have the time I run a pond pump and and IC so I can pitch and fuggedaboutit.


-OCD