New member, fun questions [lager]

[rhad]

Well, hopefully fun.

Some background...I've been brewing for about 10 years. I'm reasonably good, but I'm still slowly learning/experimenting. Anyhow, I recently got my first fermentation cooler and, consequently, I'm taking a stab at my first lager. It's a bitburger pils clone.

So...being paranoid about my first lager, post-boil I added the yeast at about 70F and waited to see action before slowly lowering to 50F. (I have read that this is frowned upon due to the high yeast activity during this period producing off-flavors but, like I said...paranoid).

Anyhow, after about 7 days I noticed the kreusen starting to fall back in and I cranked the temperature to 60F for a diacetyl rest. But...the thing started bubbling way too aggressively. Almost as if primary had stalled when I dropped to 50F earlier. So...here's my questions...what should I be looking for to know when primary is over? Did I "stun" my yeast in my paranoia by dropping to 50F after they were acclimated to 68F?

Most of all...I notice the bubbles are slowing down...maybe I did it right? If not, what do I do now? Rack and move to lagering?

Thanks,
rhad

 

[Yooper]

A good time to do the diacetyl rest is when the beer is 75% of the way to Fg- generally at 1.020 for a regular strength lager. Have you taken any gravity readings before adjusting the temperature?

 

[passedpawn]

Do you measure specific gravity with a hydrometer? Knowing those numbers would be a great help here.

OK, so when you ferment beer, there's a bunch of CO2 left in solution after it is done. When you raise the temp, the beer cannot contain as much CO2 and will give up some of it. That's probably why you saw bubbles when you did your d-rest.

Regarding your process, don't do it that way next time. Drop your wort to ferment temps (~50), oxygenate as much as you can, then add as much yeast as you can.

Cheers.

 

[rhad]

@yooper: I should have done that, true. Any ideas for how best to take a hydrometer reading out of a 6.5 gallon carboy?

@passed: Thanks -that might have been it. What should I do now? Rack and move on before I get a fruity pils?

 

[leftcontact]

There's a gizmo called the wine thief that will allow you to take a sample from a carboy. Failing that, get some flexible hose, sanitize it, stick one end in your carboy, thumb over the other end, and pull your sample.

 

[rhad]

There's a gizmo called the wine thief that will allow you to take a sample from a carboy. Failing that, get some flexible hose, sanitize it, stick one end in your carboy, thumb over the other end, and pull your sample.

Wine thief...sounds good. Other option...what a pain.

 

[Yooper]

I would NOT rack the beer until it's at FG (and been that way for at least two days) and there is no trace or hint of diacetyl.

Grab a sample and check the SG, and then take another SG in two days. Taste for diacteyl also. If you have any hint of "slickness" or oiliness on the tongue or in the mouthfeel, do not lower the temperature or rack until that is gone.

I suspect you may have some diacetyl due to the (probable) underpitching, and pitching too warm (certainty) so you want to clean that up before racking and lagering.

It's possible that the beer wasn't near FG after 7 days in primary, particularly if you didn't make a huge starter, and the warmer temperatures encouraged more activity but without a SG reading it's just a guess at this point.

 

[rhad]

Thanks yooper. You are right on both accounts for sure. Ce la vie. I will wait a few more days and then rack and we'll see what happens.

Then... try again!! :fro:

 

[rhad]

Minor update and a few more questions.

The update: Racked 2 weeks ago and it's lagering away at 38F.

The questions:

1) If I'm using a 6.5 gallon carboy for primary (so I can monitor what's going on), what's the best way to add the yeast so that I don't make a giant mess?

2) Would it be a problem to lager in the keg? a) It saves me room in the fermentation cooler and b) I would think it cold "enough" and I could vacate the head space with CO2 to further reduce the risk of oxygenation.

Thoughts?

 

[passedpawn]

Minor update and a few more questions.

The update: Racked 2 weeks ago and it's lagering away at 38F.

The questions:

1) If I'm using a 6.5 gallon carboy for primary (so I can monitor what's going on), what's the best way to add the yeast so that I don't make a giant mess?

2) Would it be a problem to lager in the keg? a) It saves me room in the fermentation cooler and b) I would think it cold "enough" and I could vacate the head space with CO2 to further reduce the risk of oxygenation.

Thoughts?

Use cold temps and gelatin before you rack. Rack when it's very cold. Filtering your beer, from one keg to another, will make it crystal clear.

Yes, lager in kegs.

 

[rhad]

Use cold temps and gelatin before you rack. Rack when it's very cold. Filtering your beer, from one keg to another, will make it crystal clear.

Yes, lager in kegs.

Would you mind explaining "cold temps and gelatin before you rack"?

I've never used gelatin -do I add it when I rack or a few days before in the primary?

 

[VladOfTrub]

Hydrometer measures density. It won't tell whether there are fermentable or non fermentable sugars left in the wort. Use a glucose tester, it removes the guess. Also, the wort being saturated with varying volumes of CO-2 changes where the hydrometer falls. It doesn't hurt to upgrade equipment for the sake of saving time and improving the quality of what is being brewed. The hydrometer has limited value when used during the brewing cycle of a diacetyl rest or at bottling.

 

[passedpawn]

Would you mind explaining "cold temps and gelatin before you rack"?

I've never used gelatin -do I add it when I rack or a few days before in the primary?

Sure. Getting the beer really cold will force the yeast to drop out of suspension. Usually this is referred to as cold crashing.

Gelatin is a way speed up the clearing process. To add gelatin, tear open a packet of Knox unflavored gelatin and put in a cup. Let is sit for 10 minutes (it will bloom). Heat in the microwave until it boils, then dump into the beer. If you are going to cold crash your beer, do it now.

Racking your beer just means to transfer it. I.e., to a keg.

 

[rhad]

Sure. Getting the beer really cold will force the yeast to drop out of suspension. Usually this is referred to as cold crashing.

Gelatin is a way speed up the clearing process. To add gelatin, tear open a packet of Knox unflavored gelatin and put in a cup. Let is sit for 10 minutes (it will bloom). Heat in the microwave until it boils, then dump into the beer. If you are going to cold crash your beer, do it now.

Racking your beer just means to transfer it. I.e., to a keg.

Ah ok. I've already cold-crashed it. Worth adding gelatin anyway before I rack to the keg? How long do I wait after I add the gelatin?

Sorry for the lagering noob questions.

Anyone have brilliant advice for how to add yeast to a carboy without making a mess of everything?

 

[rhad]

Let's give an update...

The beer referenced in my OP did not turn out very good. In fact, it was a diacetyl bomb aptly named the butterscotch beer. Yuck.

So I'm trying again utilizing the advice in this thread. Same beer, but I pitched right at 50F, and I pitched a 1 L starter. I just took a hydrometer reading and I'm sitting pretty at 1.02 with the beer already surprisingly clear. The kreusen is starting to fall back in and a taste test indicates only very minor off flavors (suggesting that, yeah, pitching at low temps is important!). In fact, it was pretty darn good...but a rest might still be required...

So...should I start slowly raising the temp for a diacetyl rest? I was thinking 5F/day for 4 days, then rack. Any thoughts?

 

[Yooper]

Let's give an update...

The beer referenced in my OP did not turn out very good. In fact, it was a diacetyl bomb aptly named the butterscotch beer. Yuck.

So I'm trying again utilizing the advice in this thread. Same beer, but I pitched right at 50F, and I pitched a 1 L starter. I just took a hydrometer reading and I'm sitting pretty at 1.02 with the beer already surprisingly clear. The kreusen is starting to fall back in and a taste test indicates only very minor off flavors (suggesting that, yeah, pitching at low temps is important!). In fact, it was pretty darn good...but a rest might still be required...

So...should I start slowly raising the temp for a diacetyl rest? I was thinking 5F/day for 4 days, then rack. Any thoughts?

As a bit of criticism (sorry!), a 1L starter is woefully inadequate for a lager, depending on the OG. A 4L starter would probably be better. Some higher OG lagers need a 3 GALLON starter! So you still may have some flavor effects, I'm afraid, but I hope not too much.

If it's 1.020, it's time for a diacetyl rest probably, depending on the OG. Doing a diacetyl rest isn't always required, but unless you're an expert at detecting diacetyl in minute amounts, it will never hurt to do one.

Don't slowly raise the temperature- just bring it up 10+ degrees.

 

[rhad]

As a bit of criticism (sorry!), a 1L starter is woefully inadequate for a lager, depending on the OG. A 4L starter would probably be better.

I believe it! But this seemed to work so...meh.

Thanks for the advice...I'm going to aim for a Friday rack to the keg. Speaking of which - do I need to worry that sediment from the lagering period will clog the keg outlet?

 

[traefann]

just made my first lager today made a 3 litre starter yesterday supposed to be around 400billion cells according to beer smith but about 60 bill short of required it didnt have much activity while i was awake yesterday or today but there was alot of co2 in it this morning kept swirling it all day then pitched into my wort at 60 degrees it was a 1.074 og roughly then threw it in a cooler with a wet t-shirt and that usualy gets me down to 51 degrees its bubling like crazy after only 6 hours is this strange?

also under pitched by 133 billion cells so wondering i guess my starter was fine really my wort was really aerated as well it should be fine i guess