NEIPA degradation solved????

[hjblwme]

Ladies and gentlemen I may have inadvertently solved one of the greatest beer problems known to modern home brewers. This was not a scientific test, this was not conducted under controlled conditions, this was simply an observation and my conclusion. I want someone to verify the results and post their conclusion. I hope that this benefits our community as a whole and we can learn from this.

I brewed a NEIPA several weeks ago. I have not graduated to kegging yet and so obviously I am bottling. I brewed the @Braufessor NEIPA recipe https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/
I was worried about the “oxidation” issue that bottlers may sometimes be concerned with when this style comes up. But I proceeded anyway, as I was brewing for a family vacation.
Fast forward to the vacation that was cancelled due to the cheap beer virus. I am brewing another batch of beer and as with any home brewer, I have to have a drink while working. So I decided to open an IPA on a warm South Carolina spring afternoon. Upon opening the beer and pouring it I noticed that the color was slightly off from the last one I had about a week ago (drank different beer during the week).
So I went downstairs to my bar and grabbed two more that had been sitting in bottles and brought them up and put them in the fridge. Holding bottles up I could tell a difference in color between unchilled bottles and week long chilled bottles, and so could SWMBO and lil SWMBO.
I then decided to chill the “fresh” bottles and see what happened. I waited two hours and the results are pretty obvious to me. I now think that the NEIPA “oxidation” isn’t in fact oxidation at all. I think it is a temperature issue.
Here are two pictures to illustrate what I am seeing. The reason I took two pics was to account for possible subtle differences in lighting position. I was also able to detect a difference in taste and the lil woman also detected the same difference just with different verbiage.
As I said the only difference in the two glasses was which bottle they came from (five minute max at bottling) and how long they were refrigerated.

 

[day_trippr]

Yeah, no. Oxidation of heavily hopped beers is a true thing.
Browned neipas are a tragic reality and nothing ^up there^ is going to change that truism...

Cheers!

 

[hjblwme]

I am not going to say that oxidation is not possible. I am only trying to say that the only difference between to two beers pictured is time in the refrigerator. So why such a dramatic difference if oxygen is the issue?

I want someone that has their own NEIPA going to conduct a similar “experiment” and see what happens. I know I am not the only person that bottles.

 

[day_trippr]

Oxidation is Numero Uno Enemy of the NEIPA State.
There is zero equivocation about that amongst anyone that's ever seen the badness.
To even suggest otherwise puts one on his/her very own private island. Population: you.

Cold slows things down - but it can't fix anything. At best, it can mute the off-notes by numbing your taste buds, but the off-notes are still there.

Bottom line, bottling a solid neipa is going to be a challenge for most home brewers sans the multiple O2 purging cycles that commercial bottlers use.

 

[hjblwme]

Oxidation is Numero Uno Enemy of the NEIPA State.
There is zero equivocation about that amongst anyone that's ever seen the badness.
To even suggest otherwise puts one on his/her very own private island. Population: you.

Cold slows things down - but it can't fix anything. At best, it can mute the off-notes by numbing your taste buds, but the off-notes are still there.

Bottom line, bottling a solid neipa is going to be a challenge for most home brewers sans the multiple O2 purging cycles that commercial bottlers use.

I think that you are missing the “point/intent” of my post. All things being the “same” please explain the difference in the two glasses that I posted? The only known difference that I have to explain is refrigeration time. Please tell me that you do not see a difference, and I will be more then happy to pour anyone the two. If refrigeration slows the oxidation process then WHY is there a difference?
Don’t just tell me that I am wrong, tell me why and explain it to everyone. Because I can show you what my results were.

 

[IslandLizard]

Both look oxidized to me. And flat.
They're also not hazy enough for the style. Look at the images in Braufessor's thread. Your beers look nothing like them, most you can't even see through them, they're not translucent. Yours are.

NEIPA/IPA oxidation is not just in the color, it's very noticeable in flavor and aroma, actually the lack of them.

There is a thread where a homebrewer claims to have successfully bottled a NEIPA and bottle conditioned/carbonated it for 2-3 weeks. He had jumped through a bunch of hoops, pre-purging bottles with CO2 and such, but I don't think the show was conclusive.

 

[Dgallo]

I’m so confused. Oxidation is real and it happens relatively quickly. If the beer is changing color, than it’s serverly oxidized.

Now to your questions, there are reasons for the different color. Chill haze for one which is probably your culprit.

Chill haze will make the beer more opaque and allow less light to pass through which will make it appear darker. If you Beer is experiencing chill haze, it develops If kept cold over a period of time and will eventually go away after a while. So a beer chilling for a week would have more chill haze than a beer that just got cold quick. A room temp won’t have any chill haze so if you’re looking at the bottles, the room temp beer would be visibly clearer.

 

[IslandLizard]

Moreover, I bring NEIPAs to our club meetings, in CO2 flushed, 1/2 gallon growlers, filled under counter-pressure from my tap system. The ones that don't get finished by the end of the evening, and stick them half full in the fridge to drink the next day, they have already become lackluster by then. In less than 24 hours. Even if I flush the headspaces with CO2 before.

Same story buying a growler of NEIPA at a brewery. Some don't even use a growler filler tube, they just splash the beer into the growler. The next day, lackluster.

 

[hjblwme]

Both look oxidized to me. And flat.
They're also not hazy enough for the style. Look at the images in Braufessor's thread. Your beers look nothing like them, most you can't even see through them, they're not translucent. Yours are.

NEIPA/IPA oxidation is not just in the color, it's very noticeable in flavor and aroma, actually the lack of them.

There is a thread where a homebrewer claims to have successfully bottled a NEIPA and bottle conditioned/carbonated it for 2-3 weeks. He had jumped through a bunch of hoops, pre-purging bottles with CO2 and such, but I don't think the show was conclusive.

I will not disagree that these are far from perfect examples. Not even close. This was an attempt. But why is there such a drastic difference in the two? Why do several bottles that were refrigerated for over a week have a dramatic difference from bottles that were refrigerated for only a few hours?
I am not saying that oxidation is not an issue, I am only saying that there is something else.
As for my example, it never was a bright shining example as far as color goes. The flavor was always pleasurable to me. I think I may have scorched it.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I resisted the urge to try my hand at truly hoppy beers until I got into kegging. The bottling route only ever led to disappointment. You might tighten up your bottling practices and get another 2-3 good weeks out of them, but eventually those bottles will turn. Same is true of commercial NEIPAs, they definitely should be stored cold and enjoyed fresh.

If you are determined and really want to give it another chance, chill the batch overnight before bottling, cap on foam and then condition them at refrigerator temps though it will take quite a while. As soon as they are carbed up, crank the fridge temp down to ~35f. The oxidation process happens more slowly at colder temps. Cold cold cold.

 

[Jayjay1976]

But why is there such a drastic difference in the two?

I dunno, chill haze maybe brightening it up?

 

[Jayjay1976]

Hey @hjblwme keep brewing and learning, keep posting questions and observations.

 

[hjblwme]

Just want someone to see what happens. Maybe someone will sacrifice a few beverages to see if they have similar results. If someone can show me proof of different results then I will accept that, but until then I am going to roll with what I have.

 

[day_trippr]

I wouldn't waste a glass on the premise that "cold solves oxidation"...

 

[Loud Brewing]

Claims to have solved one of the biggest problems in brewing...

Shows pictures of heavily oxidized beer.

:cringe:

 

[Dgallo]

Yes and no. Just want someone to see what happens. Maybe someone will sacrifice a few beverages to see if they have similar results. If someone can show me proof of different results then I will accept that, but until then I am going to roll with what I have.

My man, do you realize how much money is spent on quality control and in house laboratories for breweries? I’ll tell you, a butt ton. Temperature in of its self does not cause oxidation or color change. Oxidation does

 

[IslandLizard]

I will not disagree that these are far from perfect examples. Not even close. This was an attempt. But why is there such a drastic difference in the two? Why do several bottles that were refrigerated for over a week have a dramatic difference from bottles that were refrigerated for only a few hours?
I am not saying that oxidation is not an issue, I am only saying that there is something else.
As for my example, it never was a bright shining example as far as color goes. The flavor was always pleasurable to me. I think I may have scorched it.

You said the difference was drastic. Which one was refrigerated for a week and which was stored warmer during that time?
Can you describe the differences in flavor and aroma once they were at the same temp? And once they had warmed up a bit?

 

[IslandLizard]

Guys, please keep the discussion civil and stay on topic.
No personal attacks will be allowed.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I resisted the urge to try my hand at truly hoppy beers until I got into kegging. The bottling route only ever led to disappointment. You might tighten up your bottling practices and get another 2-3 good weeks out of them, but eventually those bottles will turn. Same is true of commercial NEIPAs, they definitely should be stored cold and enjoyed fresh.

If you are determined and really want to give it another chance, chill the batch overnight before bottling, cap on foam and then condition them at refrigerator temps though it will take quite a while. As soon as they are carbed up, crank the fridge temp down to ~35f. The oxidation process happens more slowly at colder temps. Cold cold cold.

It's best to have active yeast (not chilled or cold crashed). The yeast have a very powerful ability to scavenge oxygen very rapidly, but only when they are highly active. You will know they're highly active because they will carbonate rapidly, within a few days. After that, store cold to slow down oxidation reactions from oxygen that enters through the cap.
You shouldn't be "capping on foam" because there should not be any foam. That's only when bottling from a keg.

I have bottling tips here, and it's perfectly viable to bottle beers without oxidation.
https://***************.com/wiki/Low_oxygen_brewing#Bottling

Cheers

 

[Jayjay1976]

It's best to have active yeast (not chilled or cold crashed). The yeast have a very powerful ability to scavenge oxygen very rapidly, but only when they are highly active. You will know they're highly active because they will carbonate rapidly, within a few days. After that, store cold to slow down oxidation reactions from oxygen that enters through the cap.
You shouldn't be "capping on foam" because there should not be any foam. That's only when bottling from a keg.

I have bottling tips here, and it's perfectly viable to bottle beers without oxidation.
https://***************.com/wiki/Low_oxygen_brewing#Bottling

Cheers

Starsan foam.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Star San foam is full of air, not CO2.

 

[hjblwme]

You said the difference was drastic. Which one was refrigerated for a week and which was stored warmer during that time?
Can you describe the differences in flavor and aroma once they were at the same temp? And once they had warmed up a bit?

Yes. The one that was obviously lighter had more hop flavor and aroma. The darker one was much less flavorful. I will defer to the lil woman’s language here and say that the lighter one was more like grapefruit juice and the darker one was sweeter.
My taste agreed although we used different verbiage. I got much more hops on the lighter one and more malt on the darker one.
These are nowhere near shining examples of a NEIPA. But I want someone who is more proficient to see if they are able to come up with similar results. Which would be the reason that I put the ???? In the title of the thread.
Trying to figure out what could be going on. Yes I have had oxidized NEIPA’s and the obviously lighter one wasn’t as bad as some may have thought. This is from one week earlier which was four weeks after brew day and two weeks after bottling. The original pics are today. One was in the fridge a week and one on the bar for a week.
I’m sure there is someone that kegs that would be willing to bottle two beers and see if they have similar results. But all I see right now is everyone saying that I’m wrong and that it’s impossible. This wasn’t just one bottle. This was several.
Any upstate SC members are welcome to come and try. May not be the best beer, but it will be decent.

Added another pic with more light.

 

[micraftbeer]

I wrote a story on shelf life and beer freshness a few years back. While interviewing the Quality Manager at a brewery, he told me how they pull off samples from batches and leave them to do taste testing on as they age over several months. If they have a batch they want to evaluate aging really quickly on, they put it in a hot room and the beer oxidation accelerates exponentially. There's an equation in physics/chemistry called the Arrhenius Equation. It basically is used to evaluate factors that change over time, you can accelerate at higher temperatures. For every 10 degrees C warmer, you accelerate aging by about 2-3x.

So take a beer that is known to be sensitive to oxidation aging. One sample in a cold beer fridge around 5C, the other at room temperature, about 25C. The one not in the fridge will age 5x as fast. You put those two beers next to each other after a week, and you would expect to see a huge difference in oxidation been the two.

http://beersnobby.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Shelf-Life-Jul-Aug-2014-Issue.pdf

 

[IslandLizard]

Maybe I'm thick, but it's still not clear which is which...

Referring to the pix in your original post, the lighter one is the one that was refrigerated for a week?
The darker one had stayed in your bar downstairs for that week, and was refrigerated for 2 hours?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Maybe I'm thick, but it's still not clear which is which...

Referring to the pix in your original post, the lighter one is the one that was refrigerated for a week?
The darker one had stayed in your bar downstairs for that week, and was refrigerated for 2 hours?

I agree it's not really clear.
You bottled the beer and then how much time elapsed?
And then some bottles were refrigerated for a week?
Did you check carbonation before putting them in the fridge?
The week-long refrigerated beer was lighter and also had more hop flavor?

 

[hjblwme]

I agree it's not really clear.
You bottled the beer and then how much time elapsed?
And then some bottles were refrigerated for a week?
Did you check carbonation before putting them in the fridge?
The week-long refrigerated beer was lighter and also had more hop flavor?

No. The exact opposite. It is contradictory to what common wisdom says.
I will also admit that carbonation is slightly lower then preferred, but still adequate, and by lower I mean that head retention is low.

 

[schematix]

:facepalm:

 

[RPh_Guy]

No. The exact opposite.

I asked 4 questions.

 

[hjblwme]

I asked 4 questions.

I agree it's not really clear.
You bottled the beer and then how much time elapsed?
And then some bottles were refrigerated for a week?
Did you check carbonation before putting them in the fridge?
The week-long refrigerated beer was lighter and also had more hop flavor?

It has now been 22 days since bottling.
Carbonation is adequate although head retention is low.
Week long refrigeration is darker and less hoppy. Shows more indication of degrading.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks, few more questions:
1. What temperature were the bottles kept after bottling?
2. How much time elapsed between bottling and when the first bottles went into the refrigerator?
3. Did you check the carbonation level of the bottles before putting the first ones in the refrigerator?

 

[micraftbeer]

I think I see where @RPh_Guy is going maybe. If you put them in fridge before letting them sit at room temperature, the yeast wouldn't have a chance to scavenge the oxygen in the remaining head space. They'd just go to sleep when you put them in the fridge, leaving the oxygen sitting up top to have its way.

The two weeks sitting in bottle at room temperature allows the yeast to eat up oxygen in headspace AND create carbonation in beer.

 

[isomerization]

I will not disagree that these are far from perfect examples. Not even close. This was an attempt. But why is there such a drastic difference in the two? Why do several bottles that were refrigerated for over a week have a dramatic difference from bottles that were refrigerated for only a few hours?
I am not saying that oxidation is not an issue, I am only saying that there is something else.
As for my example, it never was a bright shining example as far as color goes. The flavor was always pleasurable to me. I think I may have scorched it.

This is much closer to drastic:

From Janish:
http://scottjanish.com/headspace-hazy-ipa-oxidation/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Back in reply #6, there was mention of a topic on successfully bottling NEIPAs. In the spirit of

• anecdotal experiences can lead to
  
• curiosity which can lead to
  
• citizen science which can lead to
• brewing science which can lead to
  
• anecdotal experiences

any of which can lead to making better beer, I'll link these recent topics from either /r/homebrewing or HomeBrew Talk:

• https://old.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/fevxyl/how_to_bottle_neipa_without_kegging/
• https://old.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing/comments/e82dor/i_bottle_conditioned_a_neipa_and_so_can_you/
• https://old.reddit.com/r/Homebrewin...ually_you_can_bottle_neipas_at_home_or_how_i/
  
• https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...a-bottle-conditioned-ipa.653784/#post-8729259

Additionally: BYO Magazine, March/Apr 2020 has a survey article on oxygen in brewing. It's behind a paywall, so there is "free time" vs "hobby money" trade-off that one needs to make.

With so many potential ways to "do it wrong", it's good to see @RPh_Guy offering ideas for "doing it right".

... bottling tips here, and it's perfectly viable to bottle beers without oxidation.
https://***************.com/wiki/Low_oxygen_brewing#Bottling

 

[jschein]

I am by no means a low oxygen brewer but I limit on the cold side as best I can. I am most successful at limiting O2 by drinking it quickly

 

[RPh_Guy]

With so many potential ways to "do it wrong", it's good to see @RPh_Guy offering ideas for "doing it right".

Interested in helping out? You make a lot of informative posts with references, which is awesome. Maybe you have an organized collection of bookmarks?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Interested in helping out?

I'll think about the idea over the next couple of days.

Maybe you have an organized collection of bookmarks?

Currently using a Windows-only OneNote notebook that's a couple of year old. I'm slowly looking into more "open" (and "open source") alternatives for both notes (mostly curiousity, as OneNote is doing the job at the moment) and home-made brewing software (again Excel is doing the job at the moment).

 

[jdauria]

Both of those beers are heavily oxidized and look nothing like a NEIPA should. Probably a lot of oxygen ingress when bottling. My guess to why they look different, chill haze settling or hop particles/yeast dropping out of the one that sits longer or has been in fridge. My NEIPA pictured below was kegged and the only change from the first pour (the pic) to the last pour a month later was a slight clearing of the haze from murky to cloudy.

 

[patc890]

I brewed a NEIPA June 24th. I hadn't known about the oxidation problem before I'd bought all the ingredients. I don't have any kegs or CO2 equipment but I figured I'd go ahead and make it. The only thing I did was filled the bottles completely. I've had no problem with carbonation, it actually seems lower when I open a bottle but their is lots of carbonation. I don't think I've had any problem with oxidation. The beer still tastes great and the color is very close (the one I'm drinking right now is in a slightly darker room with no sun outside) to what it was a month ago. So maybe I was just lucky.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I brewed a NEIPA June 24th. I hadn't known about the oxidation problem before I'd bought all the ingredients. I don't have any kegs or CO2 equipment but I figured I'd go ahead and make it. The only thing I did was filled the bottles completely. I've had no problem with carbonation, it actually seems lower when I open a bottle but their is lots of carbonation. I don't think I've had any problem with oxidation. The beer still tastes great and the color is very close (the one I'm drinking right now is in a slightly darker room with no sun outside) to what it was a month ago. So maybe I was just lucky.

If you enjoy it, then it worked, so keep at it!

 

[patc890]