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Ah! Now that is a fire my friend! Got your PM...

So, take everything I am about to say with a grain of carafa... Because I don't use NG, and everything on my system is low pressure.

Seems you are a bit too low on your burner height to me... On Brutus, my tips are exactly two inches below the pot. Even with the bottom of the upper frame... Seems yours could stand some moving up a bit, if anything, just to try and see how it works for you... Keeping in mind also, the last thing I am looking for is how fast I can reach a boil, but by moving it up, you will not require as much heat, and more concentrate the heat you do have. Your frame is receiving much more heat than mine does, but then again, I would say that my boil from 65 to 212 takes a good 45 minutes also...

I woud try a few different nipples and see which height is the more efficient use of the heat you have. It very well may be that it works much better closer to the pot, and at half throttle...

:)
 
Makes sense. I was wondering and asked Tom the same thing about throttling back being more efficient. I did move one up 1.25" to 4". I may raise another up even closer and try the throttle back idea. Thanks for chiming in.
 
Throttling back most gas burners makes them more eff. but that doesnt necessarily mean a faster boil.

What this means is that you will get more eff. transfer of heat, but you are also throttling back, so you are creating less heat as well.

100K BTU at 30% transfer is 33,000 BTUs
70K BTU at 40% transfer is 28,000 BTUs

Greater eff, but less heat transfer.
 
That thing is looking really good...I am glad you got your combustion problem handled. Once again, makes my stand look like something from a bad science fiction movie!
 
That thing is looking really good...I am glad you got your combustion problem handled. Once again, makes my stand look like something from a bad science fiction movie!

Thanks Tom. Won't be lookin too good if the whole thing turns brown from the heat though! Did you ever say what the height was on your burners?
 
So far at 2.25" and 2/3 throttle. Hard to tell in the daylight but I think the flames are licking up around the corners of the pot. Thats what the hair on the back of my hand told me anyway!

10 minutes 115*
15 minutes 132*
20 minutes 150*
25 minutes 165*
 
And the final tally -
10 minutes 115*
15 minutes 132*
20 minutes 150*
25 minutes 165*
30 minutes 182*
35 minutes 196*
40 minutes 206*
43 minutes 212* Boil

As long as my frame and boil kettle didn't suffer any harm, I think we found our height!
 
And the final tally -
10 minutes 115*
15 minutes 132*
20 minutes 150*
25 minutes 165*
30 minutes 182*
35 minutes 196*
40 minutes 206*
43 minutes 212* Boil

As long as my frame and boil kettle didn't suffer any harm, I think we found our height!

In 8 gallons I presume?

80F rise in 28 minutes (132-212)
67 pounds of water

67 pounds x 80F rise is 5,360 BTUs needed
5,360 BTUs / 28 minutes is 191.4 BTU/MIN
This equals 11,485 BTU/HR
 
Wow. That sure doesn't seem right does it? I have a 70,000 BTU burner, is this normal?
Yes 8 gallons.

That is not entirely normal, most burners run between 20-30% eff. at transferring heat.

The calculations are correct though.

To boil off 1.5 gallons/hr requires 12,100 BTUs
(970BTU/lb water vapor x 1.5 gallons x 8.34 pounds per gallon)

So at 2/3 open on that burner you can expect to boil off slightly less than 1.5 gallons/hr
 
That is not entirely normal, most burners run between 20-30% eff. at transferring heat.

The calculations are correct though.

To boil off 1.5 gallons/hr requires 12,100 BTUs
(970BTU/lb water vapor x 1.5 gallons x 8.34 pounds per gallon)

So at 2/3 open on that burner you can expect to boil off slightly less than 1.5 gallons/hr

That's wild! I ran my boil for 70 minutes just to check my boil off rate and I had just a smidge over 6.5 gallons left. Science!
 
Wow. That sure doesn't seem right does it? I have a 70,000 BTU burner, is this normal?
Yes 8 gallons.
Ha.!

Another reason I'm so much a believer in electric.

Ok.. Ok, Yambor44 - you can bash the hell out of me now. You have license.

What you said is really true. With a gas fired system, most of the heat is dispersed to atmosphere. It is extremely difficult to direct it to its intended target - the wort, water, 'stuff' you are trying to heat. You have the same result (more or less) with an external electric element. In that case you are counting on heat conductivity through the kettle. With an element immersed inside (water heater style) you are only dealing with heat loss through the kettle wall. (Not conductivity into - > the liquid - plus the losses into the air.)

(laying low in a crouched position & expecting to be kicked unmercifully)

Paul
 
That's wild! I ran my boil for 70 minutes just to check my boil off rate and I had just a smidge over 6.5 gallons left. Science!

Yes... you cannot argue BTUs baby :mug:

Well, "normal" is considering LP burners that are typically somewhat shrouded... but yeah, they are 20% on the LOW end and up to about 35% on the HIGH end eff.

Like P-J said... a 3500W element is equal to what your burner is producing. 3.5 kW is 12,100 BTUs. This is the main draw for the electric builds, speed of heating.
 
Coming along! I will run the wires in some conduit after a brew or two. Anyone know how to convert the water lines on the Thermometer over to NPT fittings?

 
Yam, I thought Henny Youngman said that (about the evils of reading).

Any who, new here but this caught my eye. Not a geek but just my gut on the thermodynamics involved. First, AJ et al seem right on about the air flow since there is an obvious and audible difference when the kettle is put in place. Is this the pot that you will likely be using there all of the time? You might want to consider that before you go cutting and drilling just in case the size or material changes.

If you look at commercial gas cooking stoves they all use some sort of very dense cast iron or thick steel burner grate to support the vessel over the burner and to allow adequate flame spread. The flame doesn't have to contend with the wind so what they use just makes it easier to slide big stock pots around while storing some of the flame's heat energy and imparting it through direct conduction.

Your tubular frame being in close proximity of blow back from the burner flame plus being in contact with the pot and the wind guard may actually be acting as a heat sink. In other words, if the pot was only in direct contact with a big chunk of solid iron that was also being heated by the flame then all or most of the heat absorbed by the grate would likely be conducted directly into the pot and consequently its contents. The effect of retarding the flame spread by choking the air flow would likely be that the flame is spreading laterally but not necessarily finding enough room to try and wrap around the base of your pot evenly. Meanwhile your tubing is wicking heat away from where you're trying to concentrate it.

You're basically trying to capture the exhaust heat of a jet engine with your pot. Without gettin' too tech'ed out maybe try observing your flame pattern after dark when you can see the full spectrum better. Then try different height spacers when you're able to observe just how they are affecting the flame spread before you go making any permanent adjustments.

It seems that there are limited possibilities, either inadequate oxygen for combustion, dissipation rather than concentration of the heat, or a combination of both.

I'm not certain exactly how it could be done but radiant heat can also be reflected very effectively using shiny metal, such as you see used under the resistance coils on an electric stove top. Maybe some way to incorporate that with the idea of the heat concentrating jacket that was mentioned, after you get the air flow straightened out.

I'm a newbie and usually just gopher when my friends brew, but we usually set up on a sunken patio in my back yard where we are screened from any wind by a 5' stone wall right behind us. Sometimes a wind break can actually worsen heat loss from wind by being positioned incorrectly relative to a lateral air flow. Was there any significant breeze blowing the day that you were doing this. If you were set up just inside the garage door and the prevailing breeze was blowing across the door opening it would create a low pressure just out side of the opening, thereby pulling your heat and oxygen out away from where you needed it. Maybe try some sort of floor standing screen that sits a foot or so to the windward side and use a shorter ring close to the burner? Just a thought. Interesting conundrum. Good luck.

I was also curious though about the reflectivity of the s/s and aluminum pots. The gas flame is just like the heat energy from the sun, so dark colors absorb it more readily and light colors reflect. Just wondering why a pot on a gas burner wouldn't heat more quickly if the bottom of the pot was coated with carbon. Another off the wall shot...if rapid heating is the ultimate, why not do the reverse of what your doing to cool for pitching yeast. Maybe a s/s immersion cooler placed in the pot while heating somehow and circulate H/W off of your water heater to help from the inside. Maybe an acoustical Sterling engine for a heat source coupled with Peltier effect heat exchangers. Just kiddin', I was just reading about them for a different project.

Isn't this one of those times when you're just supposed to relax and have a home brew?
 
Bottom line, he is right in the ballpark with the eff. of the burner. 2/3 open and about 12K BTUs from a 70K BTU burner is about 20%, which is not uncommon.

When you see the flame, and see the rating of the burner, it seems as if it should heat much faster. This is just the nature of the beast... throwing heat across a space, hitting an object and measuring the % transfer. The bottom of that kettle can only transfer so much heat in a given time frame, the rest just blows right by it from the force of the flame/gas.

He is in the ball park, just the nature of the beast.
 
Got some 1/2" solid square steel I am going to add a "grate" and test once more. That will add one inch of height tom the 2.25" burner clearance and one inch of clearance all the way around the pot for heat to escape. Will hopefully test tonight.

On a side note: any one with the Blichmanns experience the bottom "bowing" at all? Both pots I used so far seem to teeter front to back on the stand now. According to the level the stand doesn't have any gaps so I assume it's not the frame. Did the same when I added the steel pieces for the grate.
 
With what those pots cost, you ought to be able do hold anti-matter with no magnetic containment field, or a sun going super nova, and they should not warp like that....I would be on the phone in a New York minute.
 
I would but I need to verify it if I could somehow. I could swear I heard it go "boing" when I was just moving it around empty once. Kinda like the sound something makes when it re adjusts to its original shape??? My welder told me that any metal even though formed will try and seek it's original condition????
 
I would but I need to verify it if I could somehow. I could swear I heard it go "boing" when I was just moving it around empty once. Kinda like the sound something makes when it re adjusts to its original shape??? My welder told me that any metal even though formed will try and seek it's original condition????
Place a metal straight edge ruler on edge across the bottom. This way you can see if it is flat or has curved out. If it has curved, you can measure the amount of deflection. If it ends up being any more than something very minor, I'd get in touch with the company to see what they have to say.

IMHO.
 
Okay Pj and Willy and Tom, Thanks! Will check her out.

Meanwhile, here is a short video of when I reached the boil. It took slightly longer then last time at 58 minutes (same as first test) but my valve was only open 1/3 the way! Saved a ton of gas.

My question: Is this boil vigorous enough?

 
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It looks good to me....I was always told you want a semi-soft rolling boil, and it looks like that is what you have!

What I do, when I am heating sparge water, or heating wort to achieve boil, I leave my burners wide open until I get to boil, then I throttle it way back to keep a nice rolling boil like you have there. If I left it turned way down like when I am at heating up, it would take a long time to achieve boil...
 
Okay Pj and Willy and Tom, Thanks! Will check her out.

Meanwhile, here is a short video of when I reached the boil. It took slightly longer then last time at 58 minutes (same as first test) but my valve was only open 1/3 the way! Saved a ton of gas.

My question: Is this boil vigorous enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYMTnXU87vw

That boil looks GREAT to me... Over the years, the term "vigorous boil" has really been taken out of context... So, closer with the burner to the pot, less gas, = good brewday! And remember, I know it may take just a tad longer than maybe you expected, but that's why we call it a "brew-DAY" :)

Looks like you are there...

EDIT: Maybe I missed it, but have you tried it without the new spacers? My burners are only 2" from the bottom of the pots... They work perfectly that way...
 
Oh and P-J, you and I still need to have a talk about my gear motor my friend the electrical guru... You and I had spoke some years ago on the green board but I never got to it!

Thread hijack off...
 
Oh and P-J, you and I still need to have a talk about my gear motor my friend the electrical guru... You and I had spoke some years ago on the green board but I never got to it!

Thread hijack off...

You can Hi-Jack all you want Lonnie (Lord knows I do it enough around here)! :mug: Especially with PJ. He's a good friend. Matter of fact I shipped my Blichmann to him yesterday so he can install a HERMS in my HLT!! :fro:
 
EDIT: Maybe I missed it, but have you tried it without the new spacers? My burners are only 2" from the bottom of the pots... They work perfectly that way...

Yes. See results above. Faster results with more gas and some frame discoloration at 2.25". This one was an inch higher than that and half the gas.
 
Final, final test. :D

Dropped burner to 4.5”, slid pot forward to use frame as heat shield. FULL throttle.

10 Minutes 120*
15 Minutes 140*
20 Minutes 158*
25 Minutes 175*
30 Minutes 192*
35 Minutes 206*
37 Minutes 212* Boil

 
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If it was in 8 gallons again, you got it up to 13,500 BTUs. I recall it was less prior to tinkering.

At FULL throttle, what is the rate of gas usage?
 
your rig is cool man, testing is the fun part! glad to see you ae getting it buttoned up
 
Thanks man. Having a HERMS put in the HLT so it can serve double duty for keeping the mash temp and cooling the wort. If all goes well with it I'll probably sell my Thermometer.
 
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