need more input on off taste in my APA

[hammy1983]

To start off this was my first all grain batch I brewed alone (no seasoned brewer watching over me)

I bottle carb and after a week I tried it. its carb but the taste is lacking which I am not great with picking out tastes. It smells great. I brought it to a brew meeting and the ones who tried it said it had a medicinal taste (phenolic) after researching what causes that taste I have decide to post here to narrow now the potential cause

The recipe was as follows

10lbs 2 row
1lb german munich
1lb crystal 60L

1oz centennial @ 50
.5oz centennial @ 30
.5oz citra @15
.5oz citra @5

dry hop was 1oz of citra and 1oz centennial

using vermont ale yeast I got from a friend in a mason jar

I soaked my fermentasaurus tank for about a week in gental oxyclean (no bleach or perfumes), before I used it I put some stansan in it and switched it around and left it for at least 10 minutes. the valves seals, lid etc were all taken apart and washed in oxyclean then soaked for an hour in starsan.
My water I use is from my well which is 80ft down in the aquafyer as I am close to a lake. I have a water softener but the bypass was 100% on and I ran the water for 10 minutes before filling my kettle. I do have a iron and sulfur remover that uses no chemicals. It mists the water then sends it through a membrane and it works great and flushes itself once a day.
Now on the brew day. I was doing brew in a bag. Started with 7 gallons of water for my mash. Target was 152. I put my bag in at 156 stirred until no balls were present and then cover my kettle with a fire resistant moving blanket, then a decent sleeping bag.
I monitored the temp using my inkbird with bluetooth. With about 20 minutes left the grain temp and outside temp dropped it to 144. I sparked up the burner, took the grain out, hit 154 for the another 20 minutes no change.
My post mash was dead on target at 1.043 using the squeeze method. I have no markings on my pot so I took all my measurements before mash. I was aiming for 6 gallon finished and aimed for about a gallon burn off. Like a tool I added way too much water (didn't pay attention to my measurements) and added 2 gallons or so. boil was a not aggressive but a steady boil. Hops were all added on time. Worfloc at 10min (1/2 tab) and 5 drops of antifoam before boil but after mash)
again, I screwed up as it was taking way too long already and my 2 year old was well being a 2 year old. Without taking a gravity then I cooled it down to 68 put it in a bucket (bucket was full of star san for hours) and left it as I had somewhere to be.
When I got home I transferred it via vinyl hose (i was soaking in the bucket and made sure it had starsan throughout the hose and was empty before the beer went in) to my fermentasaurus. Took my gravity reading and crap 1.046 target was 1.061 then I figured out were I screw up as I remembered the water addition brought it to a rivet that meant about 7.5-8g pre boil.
I did a bunch of research and screwed around with my recipe on brewers friend and decided pre yeast to boil 1lb of dextrose in 2 cups of water fully dissolved and added it. it was less than 10% of the grain bill and kept it within the APA specs as I read the only real issue would be mouth feel.
The yeast. I received harvested vermont ale yeast (from a 8% pretty hopped up ale) in a 500 ml mason gar that was washed and probably had about 100 ml in it of yeast. It sat in my fridge for about 2 months before I used it. I don't have a stir plate so I took it out, with the lid on but not tight so it could breath for about 10 hours. I then pitched it about 30 minutes after the dextrose addition. It took about 48 hours to start bubbling as I was getting worried.
To add context to that, the guy I got the yeast from pitched the exact same yeast with no starter in his batch on the same day as me about 10 hours before I did. He had minor activity in 36 hours and full in 42 hours.
Dry hop went as planned. After about 10 days I put it in my garage at about 41F to settle a bit. After 7 days I used dextrose and bottle carbed. final gravity was 1.008. Carbonation seems to be correct with the 3 I have opened. Bottles are all rinsed in extremely hot water and soaked in starsan before bottling.
I'm leaning towards the oxyclean and I didnt rinse out the tank enough after the oxyclean soak and the lack of mouthfeel/watered down ale made the taste more prominant.
I dont think his beer has the same issue as he would have mentioned it. I'll ask just to be sure.

 

[neverfadeaway86]

I am on board with your thoughts with the oxyclean, soaking it for a week seems like way to long IMO I just rinse my stuff out after I use it and rise it out good before using and then do a 2nd rinse with starsan or one step, no need to soak it for a week

 

[BrewInspector]

Another thought that had nothing to do with your off taste but needs to be said... there is NO NEED to soak for ANY period of time your equipment in starsan.

Starsan is a wet contact sanitizer. If it is wet it is sanitized. Soaking for X minutes or hours adds ZERO benefit. Also there is no need to dry (not that you did but 10 minutes of draining the fermenter probably did allow it to dry). Surfaces should actually be wet when used.

I have never used oxyclean but would be concerned that it was not fully rinsed prior to use as well.

I have no issues with the "older" yeast. It was probably fine.

I might consider the extended periods of time that the wort sat after cooling and prior to yeast pitching. You mentioned it sat in a bucket (for an unstated period) and then again after transfer to the fermenter while you investigated the DME addition, prepared it and then 30 minutes before pitching. This may have provided a possible wild yeast contamination during transfers and sitting around even if covered most of the time.

 

[RmikeVT]

You know anything about fermentation temps? Also, I’m assuming no Chlorine or Chloramine in your water because of the well?

Just some friendly advise from someone who has been brewing for a while and likes to learn things the hard way: Use a fresh pitch of yeast and/or yeast starter while you are starting out and getting everything else dialed in. You paid such close attention and obsessed on getting sanitation right, but you skimped on the single most import variable being a clean yeast pitch coming from a lab. In my experience I’ve found re-using yeast opens up a whole host of variables and challenges to creating good beer you wouldn’t otherwise have to deal with.

 

[seatazzz]

"Phenolic" or "bandaid" flavors usually come from chloramines/chlorine in your water, but they can also be produced if your yeast is stressed (either old yeast, or underpitching, or pitching into wort that is too hot, or also large fluctuations in fermentation temperature).

Since you're just starting out, you might want to try using "fresh" yeast, be it dry or liquid, until you have your process dialled in.

 

[hammy1983]

thanks guys. The reason for the oxyclean soak for the fermentasaurus was because I scratched one before using a non-scratch sponge. So now I figured I'd just soak it to get the krausen line off. Clearly a week is too long, I agree. I'm currently in the process of rising my tanks thoroughly with as hot as water as I can without ruining the plastic.
@BrewInspector I see what your saying about the transfer but everything was well sanitized and covered right away. so there is a chance but wouldnt that make my FG off a bit which I wasnt?
@RmikeVT My fermentation temp was between 68-70 degrees in my basement but under a window. No direct sunlight but its somewhat bright (next time I will cover with a white cotton t-shirt)
@seatazzz I agree. from everything I have read, smelled and local water tests on wells... I dont believe my well water has chloramines/chlorine but I know it has heavy amounts of sulfur and iron which my system takes out... not sure 100% but its undetectable (no smells, no staining) I asked my buddy about his beer when he used the same yeast with no starter and he has no off tastes so I dont think thats the cause but I 100% agree with you on using fresh yeast until I get the proper equipment.

 

[RmikeVT]

I ferment in PET Carboys (similar to Better Bottle) and put about a gallon of Oxiclean solution in them and flip upside on to a plastic cup to let the solution do its work on the krausen ring. It works wonderfully, but I will say I often forget about them and leave them soaking for weeks, with no ill effects. I'm quite sure it doesn't hurt plastic or glass to leave it soaking in Oxiclean for extended periods of time. On the other hand I've noticed prolonged star-san soaks (days not hours) to leave a weird slimy white residue on plastic tubing and fermentation containers.

BTW - have you been satisfied with your prior batches of beer before moving to all grain? If you haven't picked up this off-flavor before then it probably isn't your water, as you would have noticed prior to this brew.

You say you're buddy's beer is fine, but you could have had contamination in the container your yeast was in, you could have contaminated it on your own while handling it, did you ever open the lid? or did you ever let it sent at room temp, letting other microbes get a head start? Do you know how much yeast you actually pitched vs. trub from the prior fermentation? Did you oxygenate or aerate your wort prior to pitch? Sorry to go on and on but I'm trying to illustrate my point that I think it is the yeast that did the harm, not your process, OR you just got unlucky and made an off batch because of other environmental factors, that happens too. The glory of the hobby is you can try again and success will be rewarding.

 

[hammy1983]

^ very true. My extract cream ale was fine. Same with my all grain saison I brewed with a seasoned brewer. Also very true about your yeast comments as I have no clue. As for aerating, I didnt do much of that other than when I transfer it and let it splash against the side of the bucket and again into my fermentasaurus tank.
I'll probably try this recipe again and make sure my stuff is rinsed well. I'll use a new pack of hydrated US-05 and go from kettle to fermentation tank. I'll also avoid perlonged star san soaks. few minutes tops.

 

[hammy1983]

update. I brewed a blonde ale about 3 weeks ago and bottled it friday. tasted it yesterday and its the same damn medicinal/chemical taste.
my recipe
6.5g started with 8.5g
I used well water with the softerner off and the iron and sulphur remover on.
my crush is set to about .026 (.65mm)
1 tsp on lactic acid
12lb 2 row
1lb crystal 10
1 oz cascade at 60
1 oz willamette at 5
7 days dryhop 2 oz eldorado
half tab of whirfloc at 10

My mash was great. I started at 154 with a target of 152 and it dropped to 149 for the full hour. Boil went great. It was a new kettle that was cleaned with welded valve that was cleaned and dipped in starsan
Aimed for 65% and hit 75% efficiency
temp drop with wort chiller took about 20min then straight into the fermentasaurus. I used a completely new tank (as the old one had haze from the oxy. I rinsed it with hot what and then starsan with a good swirl for a few minutes with the valve open and the collection ball attached.
I rehydrated a new pack of US-05 with boiled water (cooled to room temp).
Fermentation was visually active in about 16 hours.
After about a week and a half and a gravity reading og 1.011 I added 2 oz of el dorado pellet hops straight from the freezer in a hop bag that was soaked in starsan for 5 minutes.
after about a week I bottled and I noticed the medicinal smell/taste.
So to recap, nothing touched Oxyclean or any cleaners for a prolonged period of time. My yeast was new with a good date. All my bottled were cleaned with boiling water and then rinsed with starsan (issue was before bottling anyways) Tank was brand new.
I'm frustrated and at a loss. I pulled apart my valve on my kettle after and it was clean. Inspected the tank for scratches and nothing. I took apart the fermentasaurus valve (6 bolts) and noticed it wasnt as tight as it should have been as it was easy to take a part and there was gunk in one of the cavities that's suppose to be sealed.
I changed so much and before my APA. My all grain Saison was good as was my extract cream all and all the festa brews before then. The only differences at this point is infection and I dry hopped the last 2.
I think my next batch is going to be a simple smash because I want it to be as cheap and easy as possible in case of an issue. I will ferment in a bucket (not the fermentasaurus) and no dry hopping.

Any suggestions, tips insights would be extremely helpful.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Fusel alcohol is often created by high fermentation temps.
Phenolic is more yeast strain dependent but may indicate a brett infection. Chlorine is another cause but shouldn’t be an issue on well water.
Your well water could be an issue as well.

I’d start by asking if your controlling fermentation temps? At a minimum are you recording fermentation temps? I think you said you ferment in a 68-70 basement without temp control. If that’s accurate that could be your problem. The saison yeast would like warm temps during fermentation so you wouldn’t see the same type of off flavors from temp stress with saison yeasts. If your pitching yeast at 70 degrees it’s likely your temp is spiking at 75 or higher during active fermentation. That’s high enough to create off flavors with ale yeast.

I follow a simple process where I Clean with PBW in 130-160 water for 20 min the rinse with clean water at the same temp as I wash with for 5 min. I sanitize with star San in room temp water for a few min. I brew with Brett lacto and pedio as well as clean beers in the same fermentors. I do swap out plastic gaskets and hoses for sours vs clean beers. I take valves apart for cleaning to limit places for gunk to hide. My point is you can clean your equipment well enough to eliminate contamination even when you use wild yeast and bacteria.

Well water can be problematic and should be tested by a lab so you know what your working with. RO is a good solution either buy it or get a filter.

I would begin by eliminating things you can control to begin ruling out what is causing your issues. I’d start with cleaning and sanitizing your gear again. Then I’d get a stick on thermometer for your fermentor and monitor your actual fermentation temps. The first three days of active fermentation is where most yeast related off flavors are created. So temp control Is critical during that window of time.

I would make a simple ipa or Amber and use bottled water until you have your well water tested by ward labs. Read the water primer in the brewing science section to better understand how to brew with bottled RO water. It’s very simple.

Once you have your water tested you can post your results and the good folks of HBT can help you understand if it’s suitable for brewing.

I think it’s a process of elimination. Palmers how to brew is a good read if you haven’t read it yet, plus it’s free. The Yeast book by Chris White is another good read.

As I look back on my learning curve I’d rate fermentation temperature control as the largest contributor to making good consistent beer. Then water quality and yeast health. Once I got a handle on my processes my beers began to improve dramatically. A cheep old freezer and an inkbird controller can make a great fermentation chamber.

Good luck!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

update. I brewed a blonde ale about 3 weeks ago and bottled it friday. tasted it yesterday and its the same damn medicinal/chemical taste.

The only cause not mentioned here so far is the pH of your mash. If your sanitization, mash temperature, yeast pitch rate and health and fermentation temperature have all checked out to be ok. I would look there for the source of the problem. That is assuming Chloramine in your brewing water or chlorine bleach for cleaning has been already ruled out. Your untreated source brewing water pH is too far out of range to provide a 5.2 to 5.5 pH in the mash. Short of getting your water tested try brewing next time using a 50/50 mix of RO or distilled water and your tap water.

 

[seatazzz]

+1 to the above. pH meters can be found cheap on Amazon. Also, if RO water isn't an option, Campden tablets are THE cheapest solution to chloramine/chlorine issues. My water is pretty good, but I still add two campdens to my strike/sparge water for every brew as a precaution. Won't hurt and it will help.

I also think your issue still has to do with temperature. Yeast is a forgiving beastie but excessive heat will kill a bunch of them, leaving the rest struggling to keep up. Your best bet is to chill your wort down as close to 60 as you can get, pitch the yeast, and try to keep it from getting over 72 during fermentation. A simple swamp cooler will usually do the trick. If your chiller can't get the wort down that low, it also won't hurt it to let the swamp cooler (or a refrigerator if your fermenter will fit) chill it the rest of the way before pitching.

 

[hammy1983]

Fusel alcohol is often created by high fermentation temps.
Phenolic is more yeast strain dependent but may indicate a brett infection. Chlorine is another cause but shouldn’t be an issue on well water.
Your well water could be an issue as well.

I’d start by asking if your controlling fermentation temps? At a minimum are you recording fermentation temps? I think you said you ferment in a 68-70 basement without temp control. If that’s accurate that could be your problem. The saison yeast would like warm temps during fermentation so you wouldn’t see the same type of off flavors from temp stress with saison yeasts. If your pitching yeast at 70 degrees it’s likely your temp is spiking at 75 or higher during active fermentation. That’s high enough to create off flavors with ale yeast.

I follow a simple process where I Clean with PBW in 130-160 water for 20 min the rinse with clean water at the same temp as I wash with for 5 min. I sanitize with star San in room temp water for a few min. I brew with Brett lacto and pedio as well as clean beers in the same fermentors. I do swap out plastic gaskets and hoses for sours vs clean beers. I take valves apart for cleaning to limit places for gunk to hide. My point is you can clean your equipment well enough to eliminate contamination even when you use wild yeast and bacteria.

Well water can be problematic and should be tested by a lab so you know what your working with. RO is a good solution either buy it or get a filter.

I would begin by eliminating things you can control to begin ruling out what is causing your issues. I’d start with cleaning and sanitizing your gear again. Then I’d get a stick on thermometer for your fermentor and monitor your actual fermentation temps. The first three days of active fermentation is where most yeast related off flavors are created. So temp control Is critical during that window of time.

I would make a simple ipa or Amber and use bottled water until you have your well water tested by ward labs. Read the water primer in the brewing science section to better understand how to brew with bottled RO water. It’s very simple.

Once you have your water tested you can post your results and the good folks of HBT can help you understand if it’s suitable for brewing.

I think it’s a process of elimination. Palmers how to brew is a good read if you haven’t read it yet, plus it’s free. The Yeast book by Chris White is another good read.

As I look back on my learning curve I’d rate fermentation temperature control as the largest contributor to making good consistent beer. Then water quality and yeast health. Once I got a handle on my processes my beers began to improve dramatically. A cheep old freezer and an inkbird controller can make a great fermentation chamber.

Good luck!

I've brewed 1 brew house kit (prepared wort and I added 4 litres of untreated unboiled water) 2 Festa brew kits (wort in a box) 1 cream ale extract all using my well water, fermented in my basement and none hit over 70 in temp (according to the temp sticker) and all of them turned out well including the cream ale which was 100% my well water. My saison was brewed at someone else's house but with my water, the brought home to my fermentasaurus using Belle saison yeast.
Since all batches after my saison have been medicianal is it possible that my valve (only part that hasnt been changed since the saison was made) is harboring bacteria?
http://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/lallemand-tds-bellesaison-080317.pdf

 

[Dcpcooks]

Yes that’s possible. Cleaning and sanitation may help you isolate your issue.

Try to keep and open mind and eliminate possible causes as you move forward. What’s common and what can you rule out as a cause.

 

[hammy1983]

^ true. I have no choice at this point as its driving me nuts. I just dont want to change too many things at once making it harder to pinpoint.
From my APA to this one, I changed a ton. No oxyclean, new fermentasaurus tank, didnt screw up my water addition, didnt use antifoam, used new dry yeast rehydrated, shook for a few minutes (even with dry yeast) no dextrose added until bottling.
So far for my next batch, its going to be RO water, ferment in a bucket and use a campden. As well as order a ward labs kit.
Any other suggestions?

 

[divrack]

I don't think chloramine would be a thing from well water, but it might be the water given that you haven't really defined the flavor very well. (I know it's hard). however if you've made good beer with the same water that wouldn't seem likely. my guess is poor temp control or an infection.

 

[hammy1983]

So I recently took everyones advice and some more.
I appreciate all the feedback.
I brewed on June 1st a simple blonde all that is now fermenting nicely in a bucket.

One of my brew friends brought up the fact that I didnt boil my wort chiller for 15 min as I just soaked it in starsan (hosed off after each brew and washed in cleaner before starsan soak) so I did that but I also noticed something else. I used galvanized wire on my wort chiller to hold it together and to gap the coils... a fair bit of it as well. So before this brew I swapped that out for copper wire. Could it be possible that the phenolic taste was actually iron from the wire (It definitely was rusting and with beer ph being acidic... and it soaked it starsan)

 

[seatazzz]

Your beer would taste more metallic/iron-like than phenolic but yes that could definitely be a factor.

The closest I can come to describing phenolic is a rather graphic description, but here goes...say you leave a bandaid (the old-style plastic kind) on a cut/scrape/whatever too long. It gets wet. It gets stinky. That's what phenolic smells/tastes like.

 

[ancientmariner52]

So I recently took everyones advice and some more.
I appreciate all the feedback.
I brewed on June 1st a simple blonde all that is now fermenting nicely in a bucket.

One of my brew friends brought up the fact that I didnt boil my wort chiller for 15 min as I just soaked it in starsan (hosed off after each brew and washed in cleaner before starsan soak) so I did that but I also noticed something else. I used galvanized wire on my wort chiller to hold it together and to gap the coils... a fair bit of it as well. So before this brew I swapped that out for copper wire. Could it be possible that the phenolic taste was actually iron from the wire (It definitely was rusting and with beer ph being acidic... and it soaked it starsan)

If your galvanized wire was rusting, that means the zinc coating (the galvanizing) was stripped off and dissolved in your beer. Zinc tastes very sour and metalic. The iron wouldn't be helping, either.

 

[hammy1983]

thanks guys. I'll try and be patient (isnt my strong point) and wait a few weeks and see how this batch tastes.