Mocktoberfest with S05?

[LLBrewer]

So I've been working on an (m)Oktoberfest recipe and think I've got it down pretty good. However, I've been using Wyeast Kolch yeast and I'm tired of paying almost $10 for a smack pack so I'm going to try a batch with S05. Can anyone comment on a pseudo lager made with the dried chico stuff as opposed to the Kolch yeast?

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

05 is my go-to yeast for a lot of styles. However, for an O-fest ale it may be too "clean". You want some maltiness to remain. Maybe S-04 or Notty. You can ferment these in the high 50's for a "lager-ish" quality.

 

[thrashandburn]

Why not wash your kolsch yeast and save it for subsequent batches? You can probably get somewhere around 8 batches to one smack pack as long as you sanitize well and pitch the washed yeast into a healthy starter.

 

[brewbama]

I've used Cali Common yeast to get a true lager at Ale temps in my Munich Dunkel, (m)Oktoberfest, etc.

 

[JonM]

05 will work fine. Some say that it gets peach-y flavored if you let it ferment too cool, so just keep the temps in check.

And I'll second the comment about washing/reusing yeast. You can harvest your last batch's yeast and use it in subsequent batches. There's no need to buy a new smack pack every time.

 

[LLBrewer]

05 is my go-to yeast for a lot of styles. However, for an O-fest ale it may be too "clean". You want some maltiness to remain. Maybe S-04 or Notty. You can ferment these in the high 50's for a "lager-ish" quality.

Isn't a clean yeast what we want for this style?

 

[LLBrewer]

I've used Cali Common yeast to get a true lager at Ale temps in my Munich Dunkel, (m)Oktoberfest, etc.

Good to know. I went ahead and brewed this on Saturday. I didn't rehydrate and had a pretty long lag but it's still bubbling away now.

 

[LLBrewer]

And I'll second the comment about washing/reusing yeast. You can harvest your last batch's yeast and use it in subsequent batches. There's no need to buy a new smack pack every time.

Yeah, I have a mason jar of washed Kolsh yeast from about a batch about 3 months ago but I'm not brave enough to use it. If chico works as well I'd rather just use it and not risk infection / introduce yet another variable.

 

[LLBrewer]

Update for posterity: DON'T DO THIS! This beer turned out terrible, very peachy. I think the moral is DO NOT ferment s05 too cold (lower than 67 ish).

 

[djt17]

Really? I ferment US-05 at 65 all the time. I have only had 1 batch that was peachy, but, this one dropped to 59 for a bit early on.

 

[C-Rider]

Update for posterity: DON'T DO THIS! This beer turned out terrible, very peachy. I think the moral is DO NOT ferment s05 too cold (lower than 67 ish).

My fermenting freezer is usually set for 64* and I've used 05 many times w/out any taste problems.

 

[LLBrewer]

My fermenting freezer is usually set for 64* and I've used 05 many times w/out any taste problems.

Maybe I should have let in ferment longer.

 

[C-Rider]

Maybe I should have let in ferment longer.

I ferment in a bucket so I can't see anything. I just let it go for like 3 weeks out of site, out of mind. Have to put notes on the calendar to remind me when it's time to take a peak. LOL

 

[joshesmusica]

Maybe I should have let in ferment longer.

well it depends, how long did you let it ferment?

your problem was likely not the length of fermentation, nor the temps, but that you likely under-pitched. it's purported that about half the cells die from shock when pitching directly onto the wort.

also, i think these hybrid styles can still benefit from a bit of lagering time to get them to that crisp flavor profile. did you do any lagering?

if you're worried about harvesting the kolsch yeast, just plan your brew days/packaging days accordingly and repitch on top of the yeast right after you've kegged/bottled it.

why didn't you rehydrate the yeast though? not trying to bash you, since i don't know you at all. but it's best practices to do that, it takes practically no effort at all to do it. you just need to be sanitary about it. if you wanna start making good beer, you really need to take the extra time do follow the best practices for each step. if you were just too lazy to rehydrate, you either need to kick your own ass and stop being lazy, or just come to the realization that you're going to be able to make average beer at best, and will likely have off batches fairly often (like this one for instance).

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yeah, I have a mason jar of washed Kolsh yeast from about a batch about 3 months ago but I'm not brave enough to use it. If chico works as well I'd rather just use it and not risk infection / introduce yet another variable.

3 months should be fine for a washed yeast (I've used them after 1 year).
If you're worried, just smell and taste the starter - if it's bad, don't use it.
US-05 would be good, kolsch would be better IMO.

 

[IslandLizard]

If you don't want to harvest (and wash) yeast, make an extra large starter, and save some of the slurry by pouring into a few small mason jars. For your next batch make a starter from one of those, and save some again if you want. You'll always have clean and fresh yeast that way. Good sanitation is important of course.

Now, I don't care for US-05 in any malt forward beer, but it's great for hoppy Pales. That Kolsch yeast (WY2565) is a wonderful hybrid and gives great lager-like results fermented on the cool side.

 

[LLBrewer]

If you don't want to harvest (and wash) yeast, make an extra large starter, and save some of the slurry by pouring into a few small mason jars. For your next batch make a starter from one of those, and save some again if you want. You'll always have clean and fresh yeast that way. Good sanitation is important of course.

Now, I don't care for US-05 in any malt forward beer, but it's great for hoppy Pales. That Kolsch yeast (WY2565) is a wonderful hybrid and gives great lager-like results fermented on the cool side.

Yep, I love kolsch for this beer. In fact I have 6 gallons of mocktoberfest w/kolsch cold crashing right now. Should be ready next weekend!

 

[LLBrewer]

well it depends, how long did you let it ferment?

your problem was likely not the length of fermentation, nor the temps, but that you likely under-pitched. it's purported that about half the cells die from shock when pitching directly onto the wort.

also, i think these hybrid styles can still benefit from a bit of lagering time to get them to that crisp flavor profile. did you do any lagering?

if you're worried about harvesting the kolsch yeast, just plan your brew days/packaging days accordingly and repitch on top of the yeast right after you've kegged/bottled it.

why didn't you rehydrate the yeast though? not trying to bash you, since i don't know you at all. but it's best practices to do that, it takes practically no effort at all to do it. you just need to be sanitary about it. if you wanna start making good beer, you really need to take the extra time do follow the best practices for each step. if you were just too lazy to rehydrate, you either need to kick your own ass and stop being lazy, or just come to the realization that you're going to be able to make average beer at best, and will likely have off batches fairly often (like this one for instance).

I didn't use a kolsch yeast for the bad batch I used S05. as far as rehydrating, meh... I've been doing this a long time and haven't noticed any difference when I re hydrate and when I don't. If you search you'll see that I'm not the only one that has ended up with a nasty batch of peachy flavored swill when fermenting at too cold a temp with s05. Maybe the reason was not re hydrating but I remain skeptical.

 

[joshesmusica]

I didn't use a kolsch yeast for the bad batch I used S05. as far as rehydrating, meh... I've been doing this a long time and haven't noticed any difference when I re hydrate and when I don't. If you search you'll see that I'm not the only one that has ended up with a nasty batch of peachy flavored swill when fermenting at too cold a temp with s05. Maybe the reason was not re hydrating but I remain skeptical.

the difference is that you're claiming lower than 67. when i use us-05 i set my ferment chamber to 63. so maybe my ferment temps are right around 65. the people that talk about fermenting too cold are talking low 60s, not mid- to upper-60s.

but ok. you've denied advice throughout this thread. advice from much more experienced brewers than myself. if you want help, i suggest being a bit more humble when advice is given.

 

[LLBrewer]

the difference is that you're claiming lower than 67. when i use us-05 i set my ferment chamber to 63. so maybe my ferment temps are right around 65. the people that talk about fermenting too cold are talking low 60s, not mid- to upper-60s.

but ok. you've denied advice throughout this thread. advice from much more experienced brewers than myself. if you want help, i suggest being a bit more humble when advice is given.

I admit 67 was an arbitrary number. I don't have notes on the exact temp but it was definitely fermented on the cold side. I'm not trying to be a dick but I have been doing this for a pretty long time. More than a decade anyway, well over 100 batches, fwiw. I'm not saying I know everything but I know enough.
If you want to discuss then cool but you can drop the preachy tone.

 

[joshesmusica]

I admit 67 was an arbitrary number. I don't have notes on the exact temp but it was definitely fermented on the cold side. I'm not trying to be a dick but I have been doing this for a pretty long time. More than a decade anyway, well over 100 batches, fwiw. I'm not saying I know everything but I know enough.
If you want to discuss then cool but you can drop the preachy tone.

hahaha preachy tone. you asked for advice, and didn't want to take any given on this site. i gave you another suggestion, and again you didn't like it, so you call me preachy. ok got it.

you don't know how much yeast you pitched, you don't know what temps you fermented at, you don't know what the flavor profile should be for this style. and now you've got an off-flavor that's likely some kind of ester. esters form for a few different reasons, one of the big ones being under-pitching, which will cause a longer than normal lag time. which you had.

but ok. you continue with your over 100 batches in 10 years of sub-par practices. it does me no harm that you're churning out sub-par beer because you're cutting corners.
i'll continue with my only 31 batches in 1 year with my best efforts at proper techniques and practices. you're clearly the more experienced brewer out of the two of us.

 

[LLBrewer]

hahaha preachy tone. you asked for advice, and didn't want to take any given on this site. i gave you another suggestion, and again you didn't like it, so you call me preachy. ok got it.

you don't know how much yeast you pitched, you don't know what temps you fermented at, you don't know what the flavor profile should be for this style. and now you've got an off-flavor that's likely some kind of ester. esters form for a few different reasons, one of the big ones being under-pitching, which will cause a longer than normal lag time. which you had.

but ok. you continue with your over 100 batches in 10 years of sub-par practices. it does me no harm that you're churning out sub-par beer because you're cutting corners.
i'll continue with my only 31 batches in 1 year with my best efforts at proper techniques and practices. you're clearly the more experienced brewer out of the two of us.

Where did I ask for advice? What I asked was "Can anyone comment on a pseudo lager made with the dried chico stuff as opposed to the Kolch yeast?" And who said anything about sub-par batches?

You suggested re-hydrating yeast. Well gawsh, why didn't I consider that...

I know you're trolling. You should come out of your moms basement some day.

 

[Spyk'd]

You absolutely do not, ever, never, need to rehydrate Fermentis yeasts. Just toss them right in.

I was a pro brewer and we used ALL dry yeasts and NEVER rehydrated them. If you've done everything else right up until that point, they kick off almost immediately.

As far as snarky, less than helpful remarks, well, I've been gone awhile...


...this used to be a well moderated place.

 

[meatcleaver]

I use s-05 for my altbiers fermented in the 65-67° range & have never noticed any off flavors at all. it's my go to yeast for many other beer styles as well.
& as far as stripping malt flavor...no way with the **** ton of Munich in these types of beers.
my 2¢

 

[jwalk4]

I rehydrated 05 and fermented it at 68 degrees (thermowell reading), I pushed the beer to finish in 10 days. Initially I had hints of bubblegum, but it has since dropped out as the beer cleared and settled in the fridge.

Personally, I think 05 is just a fruity strain. I like it in a lot of styles but maybe not for an Oktoberfest. People report Notty fermenting clean at low 60's.

 

[jwalk4]

Over the last few years, I actually stopped using both S04 and S05. S04 is ok at 62 degrees, but otherwise I didn't like the 'tart' flavor I got with it. For S05, it takes forever to clear for me and I've found that I only like it fermented at 66-68 due to some 'peachy' notes.

Above was taken from Yooper's Broken Leg Amber thread.