Major Mash Mishap! Now what??

[jlivecc]

I have been brewing, primarily extract, for a few years now and decided to attempt my first BIAB all grain batch. I had never moved to AG brewing due to the costs associated with upgrading my equipment (i'm a poor student right now). During the mash I was monitoring temperature using a typical lab thermometer. What I did not realize at the time was that the liquid inside the thermometer had separated and a portion of it was stuck at the very top. Because of this it was reading about 20-25˚F below what the temperate actually was. My target mash temp was 148-150˚ so, in turn, I ended up "mashing" at around 168! Long story short, my OG turned out to be 1.073 and my FG was 1.058.

So my question is do you think it would be a better idea to add some DME or corn sugar solution to help dry out the beer or bottle it as is and see what happens? I did sample some when I checked the gravity and it didn't taste terrible, just very sweet...for obvious reasons.

 

[applescrap]

I'm thinking it will be fine, stuff happens all the time and it seems to work out. Has it finished fermenting if not it will taste sweet let it sit 2 to 3 weeks. And send it to me if you don't like it

 

[chickypad]

You might want to check out this thread. Probably you're only solution.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I have been brewing, primarily extract, for a few years now and decided to attempt my first BIAB all grain batch. I had never moved to AG brewing due to the costs associated with upgrading my equipment (i'm a poor student right now). During the mash I was monitoring temperature using a typical lab thermometer. What I did not realize at the time was that the liquid inside the thermometer had separated and a portion of it was stuck at the very top. Because of this it was reading about 20-25˚F below what the temperate actually was. My target mash temp was 148-150˚ so, in turn, I ended up "mashing" at around 168! Long story short, my OG turned out to be 1.073 and my FG was 1.058.

So my question is do you think it would be a better idea to add some DME or corn sugar solution to help dry out the beer or bottle it as is and see what happens? I did sample some when I checked the gravity and it didn't taste terrible, just very sweet...for obvious reasons.

Your best bet would be to make a large starter and pitch that at high kraussen into your batch.

 

[bransona]

You need to replace your enzymes. Extract is available, or, if you're into crazy DIY stuff like I am, try mashing about a pound of 2-row at 154 for about fifteen minutes and throw it in. This is super risky, but saving a beer is worth it sometimes.

 

[CA_Mouse]

You need to replace your enzymes. Extract is available, or, if you're into crazy DIY stuff like I am, try mashing about a pound of 2-row at 154 for about fifteen minutes and throw it in. This is super risky, but saving a beer is worth it sometimes.

Why are you advocating throwing un-boiled wort into beer? He has already fermented it and it has stalled, most likely from a high mash. There are going to be a lot of unfermentable sugars in it and he needs to pitch yeast that will start chewing on any sugars that they can, not adding more sure.

 

[applescrap]

Your best bet would be to make a large starter and pitch that at high kraussen into your batch.

Man I like how you talk dirty

 

[Gavin C]

I have been brewing, primarily extract, for a few years now and decided to attempt my first BIAB all grain batch. I had never moved to AG brewing due to the costs associated with upgrading my equipment (i'm a poor student right now). During the mash I was monitoring temperature using a typical lab thermometer. What I did not realize at the time was that the liquid inside the thermometer had separated and a portion of it was stuck at the very top. Because of this it was reading about 20-25˚F below what the temperate actually was. My target mash temp was 148-150˚ so, in turn, I ended up "mashing" at around 168! Long story short, my OG turned out to be 1.073 and my FG was 1.058.

So my question is do you think it would be a better idea to add some DME or corn sugar solution to help dry out the beer or bottle it as is and see what happens? I did sample some when I checked the gravity and it didn't taste terrible, just very sweet...for obvious reasons.

Problem: Mashed at 168F
Mash chemistry: Very little to zero beta amylase activity and a massively shortened duration of activity of alpha amylase.
Result: Wort rich in unfermentable long chain sugars.

Data (I assume it's correct)
OG: 1.073 What was the target? No idea if this number is accurate or close to the planned OG. Lets assume it's accurate and to target.

FG: High. Undrinkable high. This assumes you measured the Fg correctly, it is indeed the Fg and you did not measure with a refractometer. If you measured with a refractometer you need to correct the data with an appropriate online algorithm.

So you have an extremely unfermentabe wort owing to mash errors. Adding more yeast will do nothing unless you want to add something like Brett. Total waste of time and makes absolutely no sense to add 100 B more when there is no shortage of yeast. That is not the issue. They have no food to eat.

Swirling shaking or otherwise assaulting your FV will do nothing.

Adding DME will increase the current SG by a few points. The yeast will ferment a % that out leading to a subsequent increase in the FG.

Adding sugar will not reduce the FG as it is 100% fermentable. Gravity points will be added and subsequently fermented out. The beer will become drier though not by much.

The only recourse aside from adding Brett and embarking on a whole new type of beer is to add amylase to convert unfermentable sugars to fermentable sugars. I'm assuming @chickypad linked @passedpawn 's thread on amylase. Read it it's good info. (Should be a sticky thread PP).

Available in all good LHBS

As the amylase works to cleave the long chain sugars, the yeast in the beer (of which there are 100's of Billions) now have something to eat. They will ferment those sugars reducing the FG and increasing the ABV.

Assuming the current SG reading is correct and assuming it is the FG (without further measures) this will reduce the SG by perhaps ~10 points leaving you with what I would still classify as an undrinkable sweet beer.

It's a dumper in my world. Learn and move on.

Best of luck.

 

[bransona]

Why are you advocating throwing un-boiled wort into beer? He has already fermented it and it has stalled, most likely from a high mash. There are going to be a lot of unfermentable sugars in it and he needs to pitch yeast that will start chewing on any sugars that they can, not adding more sure.

That's simply not accurate. According to his information, he destroyed his enzymes with that mash. The wort is unfermentable. An army of yeast couldn't fix it. He has to convert the sugars into fermentable ones and his yeast will do the rest. Adding a low gravity unboiled wort will replace the enzymes and get things rolling.

"Stuck fermentation" occurs with a fermentable wort not receiving a healthy enough pitch, yeast dying from temperature, etc. This isn't stuck. It's done. He has to make it NOT done. Enzymes are the answer. I would still recommend extracted enzymes before this last ditch effort.

 

[Saboral]

I'd agree with making a large starter batch of yeast to try and dry it up.

 

[applescrap]

Problem: Mashed at 168F
Mash chemistry: Very little to zero beta amylase activity and a massively shortened duration of activity of alpha amylase.
Result: Wort rich in unfermentable long chain sugars.

Data (I assume it's correct)
OG: 1.073 What was the target? No idea if this number is accurate or close to the planned OG. Lets assume it's accurate and to target.

FG: High. Undrinkable high. This assumes you measured the Fg correctly, it is indeed the Fg and you did not measure with a refractometer. If you measured with a refractometer you need to correct the data with an appropriate online algorithm.

So you have an extremely unfermentabe wort owing to mash errors. Adding more yeast will do nothing unless you want to add something like Brett. Total waste of time and makes absolutely no sense to add 100 B more when there is no shortage of yeast. That is not the issue. They have no food to eat.

Swirling shaking or otherwise assaulting your FV will do nothing.

Adding DME will increase the current SG by a few points. The yeast will ferment a % that out leading to a subsequent increase in the FG.

Adding sugar will not reduce the FG as it is 100% fermentable. Gravity points will be added and subsequently fermented out. The beer will become drier though not by much.

The only recourse aside from adding Brett and embarking on a whole new type of beer is to add amylase to convert unfermentable sugars to fermentable sugars. I'm assuming @chickypad linked @passedpawn 's thread on amylase. Read it it's good info. (Should be a sticky thread PP).

Available in all good LHBS

As the amylase works to cleave the long chain sugars, the yeast in the beer (of which there are 100's of Billions) now have something to eat. They will ferment those sugars reducing the FG and increasing the ABV.

Assuming the current SG reading is correct and assuming it is the FG (without further measures) this will reduce the SG by perhaps ~10 points leaving you with what I would still classify as an undrinkable sweet beer.

It's a dumper in my world. Learn and move on.

Best of luck.

Make this beer dude and if nothing else it connects you with all of us homebrewers. I'm not sure what you actually plausibly mashed at anyways. Its a lifetime hobby, make it drink it make more. Congrats on your first batch and happy brewing.

 

[signpost]

This is the perfect opportunity for you to enter the world of brewing sour/wild beers. Get yourself either a pure Brettanomyces isolate or a blend of Brett and/or lactic acid producing bacteria (Lactobacillus and/or Pediococcus). Pitch that in your fermenter. Wait 6 to 12 months. You have your first sour/wild beer.

Well done.

 

[CA_Mouse]

That's simply not accurate. According to his information, he destroyed his enzymes with that mash. The wort is unfermentable. An army of yeast couldn't fix it. He has to convert the sugars into fermentable ones and his yeast will do the rest. Adding a low gravity unboiled wort will replace the enzymes and get things rolling.

"Stuck fermentation" occurs with a fermentable wort not receiving a healthy enough pitch, yeast dying from temperature, etc. This isn't stuck. It's done. He has to make it NOT done. Enzymes are the answer. I would still recommend extracted enzymes before this last ditch effort.

Adding unfermented and unboiled wort *will not* correct this issue, nor will it get things started. It will increase the sugars that are there and the yeast will consume a portion of those sugars. They will not consume all of them and will not consume any that they have already tried. I agree that the enzymes were destroyed, or at the very least, denatured beyond what is acceptable. But adding more unboiled wort is not the correct way to try to fix it. Pitching a large starter may not completely fix the issue, but it would be a safer way to try then pitching something that has the potential of carrying enteric bacteria from raw grain that was mashed at a lower temperature.

 

[CA_Mouse]

This is the perfect opportunity for you to enter the world of brewing sour/wild beers. Get yourself either a pure Brettanomyces isolate or a blend of Brett and/or lactic acid producing bacteria (Lactobacillus and/or Pediococcus). Pitch that in your fermenter. Wait 6 to 12 months. You have your first sour/wild beer.

Well done.

This would be a best case scenario, except that Lacto does not do well or at all in any wort above 3-5 IBUs. Brett and Pedio can and do very well, but it would be more of a funky Brett beer than a sour ale.

 

[MaryB]

Or take the oops I screwed up road and fertilize the lawn and start over and use it as a learning experience to test your thermometer before you start! I highly recommend an instant read digital thermometer. I use a thermapen now so no issues with a liquid thermometer. Hmm just gave me an idea... an instant read brewers thermometer with a longer stem to get deeper in the mash tun...

 

[kombat]

That's simply not accurate. According to his information, he destroyed his enzymes with that mash. The wort is unfermentable. An army of yeast couldn't fix it. He has to convert the sugars into fermentable ones and his yeast will do the rest. Adding a low gravity unboiled wort will replace the enzymes and get things rolling.

Simply adding the enzymes from the grains won't do anything - they're only active within certain temperature ranges. Adding fresh mash containing alpha amylase enzyme at room temperature won't do anything - they won't be active. And at the same time, you'd be contaminating your entire batch with the army of raw bacteria from the unboiled wort.

 

[kombat]

I'd agree with making a large starter batch of yeast to try and dry it up.

That won't work. Read the other posts. The problem is not a lack of yeast - it's a lack of food for the yeast to eat. The fermentable/unfermentable sugar ratio of the wort is way out of whack. The wort contains far too much unfermentable sugars/starches. There's nothing for the yeast to chew on.

In my opinion, this batch is a dumper. You might be able to coax the FG down a little lower by adding some amylase enzyme as described in the other thread, but I would expect that the flavour profile is beyond saving. Chalk this one up to a lesson learned, buy a decent thermometer, and move on.

 

[bransona]

Simply adding the enzymes from the grains won't do anything - they're only active within certain temperature ranges. Adding fresh mash containing alpha amylase enzyme at room temperature won't do anything - they won't be active. And at the same time, you'd be contaminating your entire batch with the army of raw bacteria from the unboiled wort.

The bacteria thing is a legitimate concern. However, the enzymes absolutely will work there. He temperature you're thinking of is the optimal range for fast activity. Enzymes work at all temperatures below there, just more slowly. The reason that is the optimum temperature is because it's the highest it can go before denaturing. The higher temperature results in increased molecular motion, which causes the enzymes to catalyze faster. This is basic chemistry, but I also speak from personal experience. I did this same stupid thing and couldn't get my wort to ferment past 1.04. Added unboiled wort and dropped to 1.006 at room temperature. I promise this is accurate.

 

[jlivecc]

Thanks everyone for your recommendations! I agree with bransona and Gavin C that my problem is definitely lack of enzymatic activity so I will get my hands on some amylase and see what happens!

 

[stru]

Throwing more yeast into a sea of yeast really won't do anything unless you're talking about Brett.

Dump it or pitch some Brett or Brett/bacteria and let it ride, that would be my solution.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks everyone for your recommendations! I agree with bransona and Gavin C that my problem is definitely lack of enzymatic activity so I will get my hands on some amylase and see what happens!

Brulosophy did a mash temp experiment where he mashed at 147 and 161. A panel of tasters were unable to taste the difference between the two beers Marshall himself the person who did the experiment was unable to taste the difference. Throw your yeast in ferment and enjoy it. Suggesting that you dump YOUR FIRST All Grain batch is so ridiculous and not in the spirit of Homebrewing. Feel free to go to brulosophy.com and read the experiment. There are people here who will tell you the differences between this temp and that temp and the different flavor profiles yet all experiments I have read are inconclusive in blind taste testing.

 

[applescrap]

", but side by side, it was essentially impossible for me to tell them apart."from the experiment.

I'm the one who has to eat crow as I did not understand the original post. I would still take some of the advice given and give it a try and not dump it

 

[brandonnys]

^^^ salty.

 

[brandonnys]

What did they do the last 5000 years without thermometers , dump every batch?

I don't think they used thermometers in the modern interpretation of the word, but they would use things like wax and string with a weight on the end. They would attach the string and weight to the mash tun via the wax, and if the wax melted, it would allow the weight to drop, and they knew to turn down the heat. That is still, in essence, a thermometer.

However, to the OP, don't dump out a good beer, even if it calculates poorly. It's at least worth the taste. You might find that you like it, and it's also a perfect opportunity to try something new/different.

 

[Aristotelian]

Brulosophy did a mash temp experiment where he mashed at 147 and 161. A panel of tasters were unable to taste the difference between the two beers Marshall himself the person who did the experiment was unable to taste the difference. Throw your yeast in ferment and enjoy it. Suggesting that you dump YOUR FIRST All Grain batch is so ridiculous and not in the spirit of Homebrewing. Feel free to go to brulosophy.com and read the experiment. There are people here who will tell you the differences between this temp and that temp and the different flavor profiles yet all experiments I have read are inconclusive in blind taste testing. You want to tell him to dump it you want to come forward with all this stuff offer some real evidence otherwise everything you're saying is just theoretical bologna.

He mashed higher than that and has already fermented down to a FG of 1.058. So, his mash screwup has indeed made a big difference in the beer.

I do like the idea of throwing either additional amylase or Brett in this one. In the spirit of homebrewing, the brett may actually be a more interesting experiment, because how often do you do a Brett fermentation with that much unfermentable sugar?

 

[kombat]

Brulosophy did a mash temp experiment where he mashed at 147 and 161.

161° F != 168° F

The OP indicated he estimates the true mash temperature was 168. The alpha amylase enzymes (the kind that makes sugars the yeast can eat) would be pretty much completely denatured at that temperature. That's why he's stalled out at 1.058.

What did they do the last 5000 years without thermometers

Through trial and error, they devised recipes that produced the desired beer. Specifically, they decocted varying ratios of the mash, boiled it, and returned it to the main mash (which resulted in elevating the overall mash temperature), until they discovered the ratios that produced the ideal beer. That is, if they decocted too little, then it didn't raise the mash temperature enough, resulting in an overly-dry beer with a lot of protein haze. If they decocted too much, then it raised the mash temperature too high, denaturing the enzymes and resulting in a cloyingly-sweet beer like the OP has produced. If they decocted just the right amount, it brought the mash temperature into that sweet spot where the enzymes did the happy dance and produced the right balance of fermentable/unfermentable sugars for the yeast.

Water boils at 212° F, whether you have a thermometer or not. If you mix 1 gallon of 200° F mash with 1 gallon of 100° F mash, you get 2 gallons of 150° F mash, again whether you have a thermometer or not. That's your beer history lesson for the day.

 

[applescrap]

Omg, I am so sorry I missed that that was his final gravity yeah the suggestions on amylase and all that are probably appropriate i heard Beano works. I'm so sorry everybody I miss that and then got nasty I will edit

 

[Gavin C]

OP:

Do not use Beano. It contains an enzyme called alpha-galactosidase.
Not what you want to use.

• Amylase is the right tool for the job.
  
• Brett is another option which may take months. (make sure your beer is not in a bucket shaped fermentor and has minimal headspace if you go that route).
  
• Or down the drain. Life's too short to drink ch1t beer.

 

[applescrap]

Once again I'm so sorry but still you can try to fix this now no? you might have just messed up with the yeast bad yeast pitching it to warm who knows. I'm still not buying the unfermentable sugar deal did he take his reading right are you sure it is at 10:58

Either way I'm sorry

 

[brandonnys]

My target mash temp was 148-150˚ so, in turn, I ended up "mashing" at around 168! Long story short, my OG turned out to be 1.073 and my FG was 1.058.

This was all the pertinents we had to go on. We don't know how long he mashed for, but my best guess is that there are a TON of unfermentables in there.

+1 on Amylase. More reading here, like Gavin C said.

 

[chickypad]

Once again I'm so sorry but still you can try to fix this now no? you might have just messed up with the yeast bad yeast pitching it to warm who knows. I'm still not buying the unfermentable sugar deal did he take his reading right are you sure it is at 10:58

Just curious, why are you so adamant this is not a fermentability problem? The OP mashed at 168*!!. I agree we need to confirm the 1.058 reading, but even if this was with an uncorrected refractometer that is ridiculously high - even corrected it won't come out anything close to a normal FG. Pitching yeast warm is not going to cause this - unless you're talking so hot you killed the yeast. Sure an unhealthy pitch could make things worse but why ignore the most glaring issue in front of us and keep insisting the OP just pitch more yeast.

OP I would double check your reading, definitely use a hydrometer. If the reading is correct Gavin has summarized the best options from this thread if you want to try to save this beer.

 

[brandonnys]

Did he take his reading right? Are you sure it is at 1.058?

If it was a refractometer reading, it won't be as reliable. They may want to take a new reading with a hydrometer just to be sure. Maybe the OP can shed a little more light here.

Either way I'm sorry

No big deal, man. Everyone's here to learn and help each other. We get passionate sometimes. Water on a duck's back.

 

[brandonnys]

In case you skipped right to the end, here's Gavin's Post:

Problem: Mashed at 168F
Mash chemistry: Very little to zero beta amylase activity and a massively shortened duration of activity of alpha amylase.
Result: Wort rich in unfermentable long chain sugars.

Data (I assume it's correct)
OG: 1.073 What was the target? No idea if this number is accurate or close to the planned OG. Lets assume it's accurate and to target.

FG: High. Undrinkable high. This assumes you measured the Fg correctly, it is indeed the Fg and you did not measure with a refractometer. If you measured with a refractometer you need to correct the data with an appropriate online algorithm.

So you have an extremely unfermentabe wort owing to mash errors. Adding more yeast will do nothing unless you want to add something like Brett. Total waste of time and makes absolutely no sense to add 100 B more when there is no shortage of yeast. That is not the issue. They have no food to eat.

Swirling shaking or otherwise assaulting your FV will do nothing.

Adding DME will increase the current SG by a few points. The yeast will ferment a % that out leading to a subsequent increase in the FG.

Adding sugar will not reduce the FG as it is 100% fermentable. Gravity points will be added and subsequently fermented out. The beer will become drier though not by much.

The only recourse aside from adding Brett and embarking on a whole new type of beer is to add amylase to convert unfermentable sugars to fermentable sugars. I'm assuming @chickypad linked @passedpawn 's thread on amylase. Read it it's good info. (Should be a sticky thread PP).

Available in all good LHBS

As the amylase works to cleave the long chain sugars, the yeast in the beer (of which there are 100's of Billions) now have something to eat. They will ferment those sugars reducing the FG and increasing the ABV.

Assuming the current SG reading is correct and assuming it is the FG (without further measures) this will reduce the SG by perhaps ~10 points leaving you with what I would still classify as an undrinkable sweet beer.

It's a dumper in my world. Learn and move on.

Best of luck.

 

[applescrap]

@kombat thank you for the history lesson I enjoyed it. The old recipes I have seen called for waiting until you couldn't see your face in the water due to steam. Furthermore I am a firm believer that those people could Brew with unbelievable skill and none of the equipment of today. You have really inspired me to learn more about old techniques.

@ chicky because I know that a lot of people Brew with propane like my friend and I'm sure somebody along the way has left the heat on and forgot to stir and had the bottom of their Kettle get a little hot if not the whole Mash. I'm sure there's a point where you could really screw a beer up but I don't think that number is 168. Based on the post I'm not even sure what he really did mash at. But I am certain that plenty of Brewers have accidentally had their Mash temp rise. But you make a great point that based on all the information and evidence it is very possible this had something to do with the stall

 

[jlivecc]

Just to clear this up, I checked SG with my refractometer originally and corrected using the "Brewers Friend" calculator. I also backed up that reading with a hydrometer because I was skeptical at first. My refractometer is typically right on with my hydro readings after correction.

 

[jlivecc]

Also I should add that fermentation looked completely normal at first. I know it's not the best practice to use the airlock as the indicator but in this case the fermentation seemed very healthy for the first 5-7 days. This leads me to believe that the yeast was not the problem...definitely an enzyme issue.

 

[chickypad]

Sounds like we have our answer. If you try the amylase or Brett be sure to report back!

 

[Saboral]

That won't work. Read the other posts. The problem is not a lack of yeast - it's a lack of food for the yeast to eat. The fermentable/unfermentable sugar ratio of the wort is way out of whack. The wort contains far too much unfermentable sugars/starches. There's nothing for the yeast to chew on.



In my opinion, this batch is a dumper. You might be able to coax the FG down a little lower by adding some amylase enzyme as described in the other thread, but I would expect that the flavour profile is beyond saving. Chalk this one up to a lesson learned, buy a decent thermometer, and move on.

Fine, sling that janks in the backyard. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1461927695.690834.jpg

 

[jlivecc]

Just a little update...

Added a little less than 1/8th tsp. of amylase (it's a 1g batch) on 04/28. After about 24 hours fermentation restarted. Checked to SG today and it is at 1.018 according to my hydrometer. My expected FG for this recipe was 1.017 but I have no idea how the amount of amylase added will effect fermentation. I would think that since the amount of total sugars remained constant the FG should remain relatively the same as well. On the other hand maybe the added amylase will convert more unfermentable sugars than would have been converted with a typical mash. I guess we shall see! Planning on leaving for maybe another few days and re-checking SG.

 

[bransona]

Science wins again!