Low expectations for my first batch.

[CMcPherson]

I picked up some basic equipment so that I could take my first stab at brewing some fruit wine.
I'm lucky enough to have a nice apple orchard close by me here in Central Va.
I brought home 3 bushels of drops so that I could make some sauce and feed my chickens and compost pile.
When I ended up with 3 gals of syrupy juice, I decided to give home brewing a try.
I don't have high hopes though. After doing some reading, I seem to understand that using drops is not a good idea.

I'm also seeing all of the instruction here about primary and secondary fermentation.
The brew shop that I purchased from only talked to me about one fermentation.
I brought home a 5 gal carboy, air lock, rubber stopper, sanitizer, siphon/tubing and some beer yeast.
I measured the SG of the juice (1.062 temp. adjusted).
Does that seem to be what I want to start with?
It's thick, the consistency of a simple syrup.
I then sanitized all of my new equipment and a large stock pot that I already had, bloomed the yeast and combined the juice and yeast in the stock pot for my primary fermentation. It's tucked away in my crawl space.
I seem to understand that I should expect several days of the juice bubbling over. I should clean this up and wait for it to subside. At this point I can drain off into the carboy and plug it with my air-trap and wait for fermentation to stop.
What am I missing?

Does it HAVE to bubble over? I used a tall stock pot and it may not.

Is there a single fermentation method.

 

[Yooper]

You can't put your cider in a carboy or a sanitized bucket for fermentation? If not, that's ok I think (I can't quite understand what you've typed), but it should NEVER bubble over (and no, that's no ok if it does), and in 3-5 days it should be placed in a carboy and airlocked.

 

[CMcPherson]

It's in an aluminum stock pot now but I can transfer it into my 5 gal carboy if I should.
I'm sure that I was reading a reference to having to wipe down the outside of the pot after it bubbles over. I'll look again and see if I can find the reference.

Will my "drops" cause a problem with fermentation?

Is there always a primary and secondary fermentation in cider making or is there a single fermentation method?

I measured the SG of the juice (1.062 temp. adjusted).
Does that seem to be what I want to start with?

It's thick, the consistency of a simple syrup. I assume that it won't be so syrupy after the sugar has been consumed? Is that correct?

 

[CMcPherson]

Double post

 

[madscientist451]

You need to figure a way to grind up and press your apples to make apple juice, not a thick syrup. Go on you tube and there are all kinds of home made devices for making cider. The most simple involves a plastic bucket with holes drilled into it and a car jack for pressing. If you don't have something to grind with you can freeze the apples then press after you thaw them out. If any of the orchards make their own cider without adding preservative, maybe just start with that. I've found the juice from the last apples of the season makes better cider. I've used beer yeast, wine yeast, cider yeast and let the cider go with wild yeast. You need to experiment and see what you like. I use a big plastic bucket with an airlock and rack it to a smaller carboy for aging. Some people drink it right away, but I age mine for at least 4-6 months or longer. Look on your local craigslist for brewing and wine making equipment. Good Luck and Cheers!

 

[WVMJ]

You skipped the part about how you juiced your apples. Fermenting in a metal pot, is it stainless steel? The Euro guys use drops all the time, in fact many of them knock the apples off of the trees and then they have a machine that sweeps them all up off of the floor of the orchard. Drops can be "it just fell off of the tree" or its been setting in contact with bare soil for a week? You may also want to get some camden tablets to add when you go into secondary to knock back any vinegar bacteria. WVMJ

 

[CMcPherson]

You need to figure a way to grind up and press your apples to make apple juice, not a thick syrup...
Some people drink it right away, but I age mine for at least 4-6 months or longer. Look on your local craigslist for brewing and wine making equipment. Good Luck and Cheers!

I will be building a grinder/press for next apple season.

So, is there is difference in viscosity when the juice is ground and pressed vs. processed through a food mill? Will my simple syrup ferment?
I figured that the sugar content and SG accounted for the thickness of it.
The book that I am reading is Cider: Making, Using & Enjoying Sweet and Hard Cider by Ann Proulx and Lew Nichols.
It definitely describes a pretty exciting primary fermentation. Words like boil over, violence, roiling, vigorous eruptions, hissing all appear on pages 8-11. You can understand my concern for planning for this step.
Is this description overly exaggerated?
This step is described as important to carry away impurities.

You skipped the part about how you juiced your apples. Fermenting in a metal pot, is it stainless steel? The Euro guys use drops all the time... You may also want to get some camden tablets to add when you go into secondary to knock back any vinegar bacteria. WVMJ

Thanks for the help.
I'm glad that drops will work.
I'll get into choosing specific strains when I'm good enough to begin blending.
The drops were fresh, very few blemishes and good condition for eating.

I used a Kitchen-Aid stand mixer with a fruit mill attachment.
I quartered the apples.
I heated the apples until soft.
Then I ran them through the mill.
The sauce was canned, the roughage was thrown to the hens and compost pile.
The juice was set aside until I decided what to do with it.

It's an aluminum pot.

I do have a very nice orchard that sells cold-pasteurized cider with no preservatives.

I'll get the Camden tabs.

I'm still trying to get a better understanding about primary and secondary fermentation.
Like I had mentioned, the store owner indicated that I would be doing just one fermentation step. After rereading the book that I bought, I realize that he was describing the secondary fermentation and never said anything about the primary.
Is it ever done like this?

 

[Maylar]

Whether you rack to a secondary or not depends on your goals and how much sediment (lees) that drops in the primary fermenter. Some people let it go until complete in one step (primary) then bottle or keg directly. Others feel that cider sitting on the lees can take on funky flavors and will rack to a smaller container when primary gets below a certain SG point. Some will rack again if the lees is more than a 1/4 inch thick. Personally I always use a secondary and if I'm going to age the cider I'll rack again if lees keep dropping. But it's your call.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you.
After more reading and another conversation with the brew house guy, I think that I've found the on-ramp.
For some reason, this primary/secondary fermentation really threw me.
I now seem to understand the "secondary" fermentation as simply a continuation of fermentation after racking. Am I close?
If that's correct, why not just wait for fermentation to totally finish THEN begin racking until all of the sediment and spent yeast has dropped out?

On a side note, is there ever a reason (is it even possible) to prolong the fermentation process?

Oh... and the cabinet that I have my first batch in is starting to smell like bread!
I also have 2 more 2 gal batches started using cold pasteurized cider from the orchard.
I'm doing these in plastic buckets each fitted with a bubbler.

 

[WVMJ]

There is a common mixup in terms for fermenting like most other hobbies. The primary fermentation is done by the yeast eating your sugar. The primary fermentor, no matter what it is, bucket or carboy, lid or no lid, airlock or not, is the primary container for the fermentation. When you transfer your cider from the primary container to the secondary conatainer, usually an airlocked carboy, the primary fermentation is still going on. During the fermentation in the primary container the yeast need oxygen, later on you want to keep oxygen away from the cider and this is where transferring it to another container comes in.

Now comes the hard part with people who are more uptight about wording. Some people consider that the secondary ferment is from MLF bacteria eating the malic acid and converting it to lactic acid. Others consider the secondary to be when you prime for bottling and get the yeast to do a second smaller ferment to make bubbles like in bottle conditioning or making champagne.

So when you transfer from the primary fermentor to the secondary fermentor its not the secondary fermentation but the continuation of the primary fermentation just in another container which is commonly called the secondary. In winemaking and cidermaking subsequent racking into other containers is just considered racking into another secondary fermentor. I think beer brewers would call this the tertiary, not sure, but sometimes wine and even cider can be racked multiple times to clear so using terms past primary and secondary vessels makes things easier than keeping track of the number of times it has been racked.

WVMJ

 

[Maylar]

Thank you.
After more reading and another conversation with the brew house guy, I think that I've found the on-ramp.
For some reason, this primary/secondary fermentation really threw me.
I now seem to understand the "secondary" fermentation as simply a continuation of fermentation after racking. Am I close?

Correct.

If that's correct, why not just wait for fermentation to totally finish THEN begin racking until all of the sediment and spent yeast has dropped out?

Oxygen. In the early stages of fermentation, oxygen is required. But as time goes on it becomes the enemy. We leave headspace in primary to allow for foam. As fermentation and CO2 production slow down, that headspace becomes a source of oxygen. We rack to a smaller vessel and eliminate headspace to keep the cider away from oxygen.

On a side note, is there ever a reason (is it even possible) to prolong the fermentation process?

Most cider makers will tell you that a slow ferment will produce a better tasting cider. Choosing late season apples low in nitrogen (if you have that option) and fermenting at cool temperatures (in the 60's) has given me the best cider I've made.

Oh... and the cabinet that I have my first batch in is starting to smell like bread!

Umm... mine always smells like... (wait for it...) Apples.

 

[CMcPherson]

There is a common mixup in terms for fermenting like most other hobbies...

Now comes the hard part with people who are more uptight about wording. Some people consider that the secondary ferment is from MLF bacteria eating the malic acid and converting it to lactic acid.

This is all making so much more sense now.
I do happen to be one that is a stickler for terms and descriptions.
Luckily, I also appreciate jargon, turn-of-phrase and slang so this new lingo will only add to the fun.

Oxygen. In the early stages of fermentation, oxygen is required. But as time goes on it becomes the enemy. We leave headspace in primary to allow for foam. As fermentation and CO2 production slow down, that headspace becomes a source of oxygen. We rack to a smaller vessel and eliminate headspace to keep the cider away from oxygen.

I see. So I understand this to mean even if the primary is sealed and a bubbler installed, the headspace will provide the oxygen.

What SG measurements am I looking for at each stage?
I started with 1.062 on the first batch and 1.05 on the second.

Most cider makers will tell you that a slow ferment will produce a better tasting cider. Choosing late season apples low in nitrogen (if you have that option) and fermenting at cool temperatures (in the 60's) has given me the best cider I've made.

As dumb luck would have it... late season apples is just what I got.
I'm also fermenting outside at about 50°-60°.
Will adding sugar to prolong fermenting add any benefits?

Umm... mine always smells like... (wait for it...) Apples.

Definitely smelled like a good yeasty bread. That's gone now and am getting a more earthy sweet smell now.

 

[Maylar]

I see. So I understand this to mean even if the primary is sealed and a bubbler installed, the headspace will provide the oxygen.

Yes. It seems that an airlock isn't as good a seal against outside air as we might think. Once the positive pressure from escaping CO2 diminishes oxygen can sneak in.

There's also the issue of expired yeast (lees) in the fermentor. I have had cider take on a "yeasty" flavor when left on the lees to long. This is highly subjective though, and others will say I'm fulla poop.

What SG measurements am I looking for at each stage?
I started with 1.062 on the first batch and 1.05 on the second.

I like to rack when it's between 1.008 and 1.010. Still actively fermenting and making CO2. 1.062 is high, did you add sugar to get there?

As dumb luck would have it... late season apples is just what I got.
I'm also fermenting outside at about 50°-60°.
Will adding sugar to prolong fermenting add any benefits?

No. Adding sugar only increases alcohol level, which makes it more "winey" and less "cidery".

 

[jsiddall]

Regarding primary and secondary: think of those terms as short forms for "primary fermenter" and "secondary fermenter". All you are changing is the vessel.

The problem with using a single vessel (which is possible actually) is that early on the fermentation is vigorous and you need more headroom and some oxygen also. Later on as the fermentation dies down you can move it to another "secondary" vessel which is sealed with an airlock and has little headspace.

A couple of tips: if you want to use a carboy as your only vessel, start with it 3/4 full and make sure the juice is well aerated. Cover the opening with a cloth or something else that can allow oxygen in. As the fermentation progresses add more juice (keep this "reserve" juice refrigerated) in steps to avoid overflowing the vessel. When fermentation is essentially done and the carboy is well topped up install an airlock.

For shorter term fermentations (maybe a month or two) you can use a 5 gal food grade bucket available at most home improvement stores for a few dollars. After fermentation slows install a sealed lid with an airlock. Keep in mind most pails do not seal very well so you shouldn't leave the finished cider for a long time. Either bottle early or transfer (rack) to a better long term storage vessel (ex: a carboy).

Secondary fermentation is a separate thing and usually involves some other process (ex MLF).

 

[CMcPherson]

I like to rack when it's between 1.008 and 1.010. Still actively fermenting and making CO2. 1.062 is high, did you add sugar to get there?

Thank you... this is really helping!
I'll do the same for this batch at least.
So, I'll rack at 1.009 into a carboy with no head space and air-lock.
What SG should I look for before storing in my gallon jugs?

I did not add sugar. It was juice left over from squeezing apple sauce.

 

[CMcPherson]

Regarding primary and secondary: think of those terms as short forms for "primary fermenter" and "secondary fermenter". All you are changing is the vessel.

This helps a lot. It took me a while to catch on.

The problem with using a single vessel (which is possible actually) is that early on the fermentation is vigorous and you need more headroom and some oxygen also. Later on as the fermentation dies down you can move it to another "secondary" vessel which is sealed with an airlock and has little headspace.

That's how I will do it.
I'll rack it into a glass 5 gal carboy with stopper and bubbler when it drops to ~1.009 and let it continue until I should bottle it. At that point, I'll rack again into 1 gal jugs. How does that sound?
I think that I understand that it's common for those of us that like a sweeter cider rather than dry table wine to halt fermentation at around 1.004.
Is this correct?
If so, how is fermentation halted so that it won't over pressure my closed gal. jugs?

Cover the opening with a cloth or something else that can allow oxygen in.

After fermentation slows install a sealed lid with an airlock.

Does this mean that I should not have the stopper and bubbler on my primary fermentation? I have a considerable amount of head space in the 5 gal carboy.

Secondary fermentation is a separate thing and usually involves some other process (ex MLF).

I'm starting to read more about this and acid testing.

 

[Maylar]

Some people use an airlock in primary, some people don't. Personal preference. I do except for when using a 6 gallon pail - that just gets covered with a weighted paper towel.

It's not really practical to stop fermentation. You let the yeast finish to whatever level they poop out at then deal with sweetness at the point of bottling. There are lots of options for that.

 

[jsiddall]

I'll rack it into a glass 5 gal carboy with stopper and bubbler when it drops to ~1.009 and let it continue until I should bottle it. At that point, I'll rack again into 1 gal jugs. How does that sound?
I think that I understand that it's common for those of us that like a sweeter cider rather than dry table wine to halt fermentation at around 1.004.
Is this correct?
Does this mean that I should not have the stopper and bubbler on my primary fermentation? I have a considerable amount of head space in the 5 gal carboy.

I don't go by SG so much as by the activity. There is no point in racking to a topped up carboy if your cider is still fermenting enough that it will blow out the airlock.

Halting fermentation is not easy so let it go dry. I find that ale yeasts end at about 1.005 anyway, so no need to backsweeten.

On my primary buckets I just leave the lid on loosely. I don't use an airlock. The goal is to keep insects out and let oxygen in early on.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you so much guys!
This has all been a huge help.
I know that I'm asking all of the same silly questions that all of the new guys ask so I appreciate your patients with me.

I think that I have enough basic knowledge now to work on a few practice runs and then begin to perfect my end product.

 

[CMcPherson]

Well... I bottled #1 on Dec. 7th and have had several while snowed in this weekend.
I am pleasantly surprised!!
I bottled it at 1.005 and it has a nice fizz to it.
I was able to surprise my neighbor by putting a few in his snow bank.
It could use a little more acid but all-in-all, pretty darn good.
The main thing is that I now know what to do better for current and future batches.

 

[twidget]

If you thinks its good now , hide a couple of bottles and try after 1 to 2 yeàrs. Just gotta be patient!

 

[CMcPherson]

Too late.
I was snowed in for 3 days and I needed a lot of attitude adjustment.

Besides, while it was mildly enjoyable, its beginnings never would have amounted to one worth saving for any length of time.

The 6 batches that I have going now have much better chance of being something.