lots of fermentation questions:

[UltraHighABV]

Hi, this is my first full batch of beer (5.25 gal) so I have a couple questions: Here is my grain bill:

10 lb german pilsner
1.5 lb golden promise
2 lb honey malt
0.5 accidulated malt

• Here is the yeast I used: WLP300 and WLP099 combined in a 2L starter at 1.040 with oxygen and yeast nutrients on a shaker for about 18 hours prior to pitch

My mash efficiency came out a little low; so I added 5 lbs corn sugar instead of 3 (I'm going for an 11% beer)

After boil my OG was 1.096; I oxygenated then pitched at about 66 deg F

Unfortunatley I am not skilled in the ways of fermentation temperature stabilization, and the first night the temp was pretty high (maybe 76) before I did some reading and chilled it (down to 62ish). I tried to maintain 60 degrees as much as I could but there were times when it crept back up to 66-68.

On day 10 I took a reading and it was at 1.020, which is about 10%(?)

The beer was VERY cloudy, like a thick soup, and tasted heavily of yeast (and alcohol, which I assume is bc of my high fermentation temps)

My question is, whats the best course of action from here? Here is my plan, and let me know what you guys think and if you have a better plan (and why my plan is bad)

1) Check FG again on day 14
2) Transfer to seconday fermenter (?????)
3) Let it rip in secondar for another 2 weeks
4) Put it in my fridge for 3-4 days (cold crash)
5) Siphon it into my keg and carbonate


My questions are:

1) What are the bad effects of putting these yeast strains together
2) Should I just put it in the secondary here since theres so much yeast and I don’t want autolysis
3) Will this cold crash get rid of the massive amounts of yeast, and will the beer clear at anytime?
4) Will the diesel alcohol taste mellow out at all and how much?
5) At this time, should I still be trying to keep my fermentation temp down, or should I just

 

[Calder]

My questions are:

1) What are the bad effects of putting these yeast strains together
2) Should I just put it in the secondary here since theres so much yeast and I don’t want autolysis
3) Will this cold crash get rid of the massive amounts of yeast, and will the beer clear at anytime?
4) Will the diesel alcohol taste mellow out at all and how much?
5) At this time, should I still be trying to keep my fermentation temp down, or should I just

1) None

2) There shouldn't be any worries with autolysis. I think I'd leave it for at least another 10 days where it is and only think about transferring it if you are after long-term storage in the fermenter.

3) Do not cold crash until you know it is finished

4) Fusel alcohols can mellow with time, but if there are a lot, the taste may remain. If you really have a lot of higher alcohols, this might give you headaches just from drinking a couple. If that happens, you know where it is from.

5) Temp control is not necessary atthis stage. It may help get the last few points down by raising the temp at this point.


5 lbs of corn sugar. That is probably contributing almost .040 to the OG. With an OG of 1.096, the corn sugar is contributing over 40% of the fermentables. Even if fermented cool, it would be difficult to make this not taste like rocket fuel.

Are you sure you got an accurate OG reading. 1.056 from 14 lbs of grain is somewhere around 55 to 60% efficiency.

Depending on your mash temp, you could easily get that down to 1.010 due to the high amount of simple sugar. If you mashed high, you might be finished.

I hope you like Honey Malt. I find it cloying. I rarely use it and when I did last time, I used 0.25 lbs in 6 gallons to help provide a little sweetness on the finish without the overpowering flavor.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

So, a few things jump out at me. First, 2lbs of honey malt is quite a lot. It may end up too sweet but only time will tell. Second, if "0.5" acid malt is lbs and not oz, that is also a lot and your pH was probably quite low. Not sure how that will effect the beer but, once again, time will tell. The third thing is that 5 lbs of sugar is also a lot. That is probably where the alcohol taste is coming from.

At this point, your best bet is to let it ride and see what happens. For such a big beer, 10 days isn't much time to really get a feel for its true flavor. You need to give it at least another 3 - 4 weeks to finish fermenting and let the yeast clean things up. Then you can cold crash and keg. Don't bother with secondary and don't worry about autolysis. That takes much longer time before it becomes an issue.

So, let it ride and you might ramp the temps up for a couple of days to help the yeast out. Don't worry about the yeast mix. Maybe you've discovered the next great yeast blend. The alcohol taste may smooth out some but I doubt it will go away completely. Give it some time and it may turn out OK. If not, you've learned some new lessons. It's all good.

 

[doug293cz]

Leave it in the primary for 3 weeks, and once the SG is stable for 3 days you can cold crash. Autolysis is a non-issue on the homebrew scale. If you want to really clear you beer prior to kegging, add gelatin after the first day of cold crashing. After 3 - 4 days of cold crashing, keg and carbonate the beer. That grain bill doesn't look like it would make the kind of complex beer that would benefit from a long secondary or aging. Might benefit from a couple of weeks in the keg.

Brew on

 

[UltraHighABV]

Are you sure you got an accurate OG reading. 1.056 from 14 lbs of grain is somewhere around 55 to 60% efficiency.

I dont have my note book on me but this is almost exactly what I got, I think +/-62%

Depending on your mash temp, you could easily get that down to 1.010 due to the high amount of simple sugar. If you mashed high, you might be finished.

Good news I was at a solid 150 for 90 min

I hope you like Honey Malt. I find it cloying. I rarely use it and when I did last time, I used 0.25 lbs in 6 gallons to help provide a little sweetness on the finish without the overpowering flavor.

I am almost 99% sure the recipe said honey, and I assumed it was honey malt. Only after did I realize it meant real honey c'est la vie

 

[UltraHighABV]

So, a few things jump out at me. First, 2lbs of honey malt is quite a lot. It may end up too sweet but only time will tell. Second, if "0.5" acid malt is lbs and not oz, that is also a lot and your pH was probably quite low. Not sure how that will effect the beer but, once again, time will tell. The third thing is that 5 lbs of sugar is also a lot. That is probably where the alcohol taste is coming from.

one of the reasons my extraction was low may have been the pH, so this might have had something to do with it, thanks for the tip.

Im curious why 2lb honey malt would make it any more or less sweet than 2lb of any other malt; isnt is just the same types of sugar in the same proportion?

 

[Calder]

If "0.5" acid malt is lbs and not oz, that is also a lot and your pH was probably quite low. Not sure how that will effect the beer but, once again, time will tell.

Half a pound will do nothing. I've used a couple of lbs in some beers and been dissapointed in that it didn't give me any noticeable acidity.

I use it in stouts and in Brett beers.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Honey malt is specifically roasted (not sure how) to impart a sweet, honey-like flavor to the brew. I've only used it a few times but when I once used a pound it was very noticeable. Ironically, when you use actual honey in your brew, it ferments away and leaves little, if any, discernable honey flavor.

 

[UltraHighABV]

I just checked my beer and SG is at 1.004 for 12% ABV. Its starting to taste good too I can't wait until its finished

question: I took my OG reading BEFORE I added my starter (~1.8L at 1.040)

How does this affect my actual OG? can assume the starter was 100% fermented and calculate it as follows (I ended up with about 21 L instead of 19 as planned)

actual OG: m1v1=m2v2 (1.096)(19L)+(1.000)(1.8L) = (x)(20.8L)

x= 1.087

The volumes aren't exact but they're very close. Is this how the calculation should be done? If this is the case I should be sitting at around ~11%

?

 

[JordanKnudson]

Honey malt is specifically roasted (not sure how) to impart a sweet, honey-like flavor to the brew. I've only used it a few times but when I once used a pound it was very noticeable. Ironically, when you use actual honey in your brew, it ferments away and leaves little, if any, discernable honey flavor.

From what I understand, honey malt is created in the same way as crystal malt (mashed inside the hull, then heated to caramelize the newly converted sugars), but with a higher moisture content, which is why the sweetness and flavor is a bit different.

To O.P., what the heck type of beer was this a recipe for? And where did it come from? It seems like a mess of a recipe that was pretty well guaranteed to make jet fuel from the start...

 

[doug293cz]

I just checked my beer and SG is at 1.004 for 12% ABV. Its starting to taste good too I can't wait until its finished

question: I took my OG reading BEFORE I added my starter (~1.8L at 1.040)

How does this affect my actual OG? can assume the starter was 100% fermented and calculate it as follows (I ended up with about 21 L instead of 19 as planned)

actual OG: m1v1=m2v2 (1.096)(19L)+(1.000)(1.8L) = (x)(20.8L)

x= 1.087

The volumes aren't exact but they're very close. Is this how the calculation should be done? If this is the case I should be sitting at around ~11%

?

If you dumped the whole starter in, you should use the original SG of the starter in your calculation, not 1.000. Think of it as if you mixed the starter into the wort before you fermented the starter. What is the effect of that on the OG. So you would have something like:

1+ (96*19 +40*1.8)/(1000*20.8) = 1.091​

Assuming your starter SG was 1.040.

Brew on

 

[UltraHighABV]

If you dumped the whole starter in, you should use the original SG of the starter in your calculation, not 1.000.

after 18 hours of raging fermentation, its got to be closer to 1.000 than 1.040 no? has anyone accually measured it? the numbers come out close either way so it doesn't really matter much

 

[UltraHighABV]

To O.P., what the heck type of beer was this a recipe for? And where did it come from? It seems like a mess of a recipe that was pretty well guaranteed to make jet fuel from the start...

heres the original recipe at the bottom here: http://www.tastybrew.com/forum/thread/31325

I used honey malt instead of honey bc I didn't know any better. I was originally shooting for 11% and calculated 3 lbs of corn sugar but my efficiency came out low after the mash so I just dumped the 5lb bag in there............

hahahahah!!!!

 

[JordanKnudson]

heres the original recipe at the bottom here: http://www.tastybrew.com/forum/thread/31325

I used honey malt instead of honey bc I didn't know any better. I was originally shooting for 11% and calculated 3 lbs of corn sugar but my efficiency came out low after the mash so I just dumped the 5lb bag in there............

hahahahah!!!!

I see, so this was a modified version of this La Fin du Monde clone?

I get the accidental honey/honey malt mix up. But...why replace the wheat malt with Golden Promise? And why ditch the Belgian/Unibroue yeast in favor of a Hefeweizen yeast (especially since you left out the wheat) mixed with wlp099? I'm not saying it won't turn out, it just seems like a weird set of modifications. Still though, that can yield great results sometimes! Did you use Styrian Goldings and add the spices?

I might suggest, in lieu of dumping in 5 lbs of corn sugar next time, that you consider making up any lack of efficiency with DME, so your recipe comes out closer to what you had planned. Add the corn sugar per your recipe, and DME to make up any missing gravity points.

 

[UltraHighABV]

I see, so this was a modified version of this La Fin du Monde clone?



I get the accidental honey/honey malt mix up. But...why replace the wheat malt with Golden Promise? And why ditch the Belgian/Unibroue yeast in favor of a Hefeweizen yeast (especially since you left out the wheat) mixed with wlp099? I'm not saying it won't turn out, it just seems like a weird set of modifications. Still though, that can yield great results sometimes! Did you use Styrian Goldings and add the spices?



I might suggest, in lieu of dumping in 5 lbs of corn sugar next time, that you consider making up any lack of efficiency with DME, so your recipe comes out closer to what you had planned. Add the corn sugar per your recipe, and DME to make up any missing gravity points.

good questions;

when I went to the brew store they didn't have the wheat malt so I thought "golden promise sounds like la fin du monde" (both are yellow) please dont laugh this is my first batch....

regarding the yeast; I had done a previous batch and used 2 vials of the belgian strong ale yeast; it got time to cool the wort to ferm temp. well; after boiling I put the wort straight into my glass carboy, then directly into an ice bath to cool it. The carboy shattered instantly with boiling hot wort spewed about my kitchen. I since learned the proper way to do it and built myself a nice chiller which I used on this batch. Also made a real cooler mash tun instead of the ****ty pickle bucket my gf had. Its amazing how much you learn the first time you brew

about the yeast used; after I made the chiller and mash tun I really wanted to brew. my gf had these two strains in our fridge, and we were going out of town the next afternoon; so if i wanted to brew it would have to be making a starter with these two vials, then getting the grains at the store the next morning. so I said screw it lets see how it turns out

yes to styrian and the spices from the recipe

 

[UltraHighABV]

pics of the chiller

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1436421709.244888.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1436421738.409851.jpg

 

[doug293cz]

after 18 hours of raging fermentation, its got to be closer to 1.000 than 1.040 no? has anyone accually measured it? the numbers come out close either way so it doesn't really matter much

Ok, let's look at it a different way. What if you brewed 19.8 L of 1.096 gravity wort, and then took out 0.8 L and diluted it with 1.0 liters of additional water to create 1.8 liters of wort at 1+0.8*96/(1.8*1000) = 1.0427. Added yeast to that, and fermented it out (while keeping the 19 L protected from infection.) Then dumped the 1.8 L of fermented beer + yeast back into the other 19 L. Your OG is based on the total amount of sugar you started with in the wort and the total volume of the wort. The fact that you fermented part of it before the rest wouldn't affect your OG, but the extra liter of water you added would.

Now, let's do it slightly differently. Start with 19.8 L of 1.096 gravity wort, and add 1 additional liter of water, then pitch yeast. After the amount of sugar contained in 0.8 L of the diluted wort has fermented, what was your OG.

Both of the above are equivalent to doing a starter as far as calculating the effective original gravity.

It doesn't matter that some of the total sugar that went into the batch was fermented before the rest. The effective OG is totally determined by the amount of sugar you started with and the volume of the wort (the sugar dissolved in water.)

Brew on

 

[JordanKnudson]

good questions;

when I went to the brew store they didn't have the wheat malt so I thought "golden promise sounds like la fin du monde" (both are yellow) please dont laugh this is my first batch....

regarding the yeast; I had done a previous batch and used 2 vials of the belgian strong ale yeast; it got time to cool the wort to ferm temp. well; after boiling I put the wort straight into my glass carboy, then directly into an ice bath to cool it. The carboy shattered instantly with boiling hot wort spewed about my kitchen. I since learned the proper way to do it and built myself a nice chiller which I used on this batch. Also made a real cooler mash tun instead of the ****ty pickle bucket my gf had. Its amazing how much you learn the first time you brew

about the yeast used; after I made the chiller and mash tun I really wanted to brew. my gf had these two strains in our fridge, and we were going out of town the next afternoon; so if i wanted to brew it would have to be making a starter with these two vials, then getting the grains at the store the next morning. so I said screw it lets see how it turns out

yes to styrian and the spices from the recipe

Classic! I won't laugh at you for the Golden Promise color thing. I would have thought that was flawless logic when I was doing my first batches too! Weird that your lhbs didn't have wheat malt, though, but that's on them.

I think everyone needs a good "how I broke my glass carboy" story, and now you've got one! (An experienced brewer who works at my lhbs actually told me the other day that he did the same thing as you, and he has been brewing long enough to know better!) My broken carboy story is that I lightly bumped it into a wall once while carrying it empty. It didn't break right there, but it must have cracked the base a little, because I filled it up with 5.5 gallons of dark mild, put on the stopper, left the room, and came back a few minutes later to find that beer draining out of the bottom of the carboy all over my floor.

A lastly, that is a wild chiller you've got there! Totally awesome!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Great job on the chiller!