Long time of carbonation after bottling.. Why?

[Miles_1111]

Two weeks after bottling, my beer still has very few bubbles and tastes very sweet.

Firstly, I put around 2.7g of sugar in the bottom of each bottle (330ml), then fill the beer all the way to the bottle neck, leaving only 1 mm space ( to prevent from oxidation ), then cap it. But after two weeks in the 17 degree celsius environment, the carbonation is not enough. They have to wait until at least 4 weeks after bottling to get perfect bubbles.

Is this normal? Any way to get a perfect carbonation in two weeks? Thanks.

 

[D.B.Moody]

17 C is on the cold side. 20 C or above would speed the process. So it's normal.
I bottle condition in my basement which is between 60-70 F (16-21 C) depending on the season, and two weeks works, three weeks is better, and four weeks seems to be the max.

 

[Miles_1111]

17 C is on the cold side. 20 C or above would speed the process. So it's normal.
I bottle condition in my basement which is between 60-70 F (16-21 C) depending on the season, and two weeks works, three weeks is better, and four weeks seems to be the max.

Will there be any pros and cons in terms of flavour between bottle conditioning 60F and 70F apart from the time difference?

 

[Ninoid]

I had the same problem with two batch, both with S-04 yeast. On some forum I found a simple tip and tried it out. I turned the bottles upside down and after a few days turned them to their normal position and after a few more days moved them to the fridge. The beer got a real thick foam, and the taste improved significantly.

 

[Miraculix]

Two weeks after bottling, my beer still has very few bubbles and tastes very sweet.

Firstly, I put around 2.7g of sugar in the bottom of each bottle (330ml), then fill the beer all the way to the bottle neck, leaving only 1 mm space ( to prevent from oxidation ), then cap it. But after two weeks in the 17 degree celsius environment, the carbonation is not enough. They have to wait until at least 4 weeks after bottling to get perfect bubbles.

Is this normal? Any way to get a perfect carbonation in two weeks? Thanks.

1mm is much too little headspace. This is basically asking for bottle bombs. 5mm -10mm is a good rule of thumb, that works to lower oxidation significantly and does not create bottle bombs by default if temperatures are changing and liquids expand.

Ninoid basically gave a good solution, it might be that your yeast just settled out, you can shake the bottle gently, place it upside down, however you bring the yeast back into suspension does not matter much, it just needs to get back onto the field.

Regarding temperature, I do not know if there is a detectable difference between a higher carbonation temperature or lower. I carbonate on the higher side, even place my beers next to the heater to speed things up. Only in a half full bottle I managed to find detrimental impact, there was some serious oxidation going on, but no wonder with that much space left. I never did side by side tests though, would be interesting to see, I will do so next brew. Easy to store away a few beers in the cooler basement after adding the sugar.

 

[cire]

For speedy carbonation of ales, 20C and shake the bottles once per day for a week or more.
High temperatures early during fermentation have a vastly more significant influence on the beer than towards the end of the process.

Many of the best ale yeasts will flocculate before fermentation is complete, requiring regular rousing. Once bottled those quickly settle on the bottom in a single solid mass.

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

I carbonate at around 25C and they are carbonated within a week every time.
That said, the taste seems to improve after the second week.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Will there be any pros and cons in terms of flavour between bottle conditioning 60F and 70F apart from the time difference?

Not that I know or have noticed, but I've never done comparisons and have not kept tract of the exact temperature in my conditioning room. I've been brewing since 1994 and only checked the temperature last winter and summer because HBT got me curious about it. This picture is my fermentation, bottling, and bottle conditioning space. The furnace in in this space behind the picture taker, and the cold air return is along the wall to the right. This moderates the temperatures in this part of my basement. (It's also good for paint and lumber storage.)

Visible from front to back: bottle storage, bottle conditioning, primary fermentation, secondary fermenter (on bench), and work bench cleared for bottling day.
The fact that you see a secondary in this picture may give you pause in asking my advise about taste. I don't worry about oxygen. I brew only ales, no lagers. I mostly brew bitters and pale ales. I leave an inch to an inch and a half in my bottles. When I compared batches that were and were not put through a secondary, I found little difference in taste, and a preference for the secondary batches. (I did this four times last year.)
I have never tried rousing yeast to speed bottle conditioning or to see if there is a flavor effect, but now that it has been mentioned, I may have to explore that by doing that to part of a batch. It would have to be a noticeble positive effect on taste to get me to adopt a practice that involves extra work.

 

[MikeCo]

When I bottle, I also carbonate around 25C. I do not believe the relatively mild refermentation influences flavors. I usually add fresh yeast at bottling as well, especially for higher alcohol beers or those that have aged a while. As a reference, Duvel adds yeast and bottles at 24C, taking 2 weeks to complete conditioning.
https://www.duvel.com/en-us/the-beer/duvel

 

[TurnipGreen]

relax, wait another week and pop another. Most of my bottle conditioned beers take at least 3 weeks. I think Nottingham was the only yeast I used that turned around in 2 weeks consistently.

Especially at lower temps or if the beer cleared very well before bottling it might take a bit longer.

 

[Miraculix]

relax, wait another week and pop another. Most of my bottle conditioned beers take at least 3 weeks. I think Nottingham was the only yeast I used that turned around in 2 weeks consistently.

Especially at lower temps or if the beer cleared very well before bottling it might take a bit longer.

I just tried a notty beer yesterday wich I bottled 5 days ago. Carbonation was almost complete, notty is a beast. The beer is very good btw. best cream ale so far for me.

 

[pocketmon]

Most of my beers seem to be carbonated within a week, except one. I had a few double primed bottles by mistake. They all exploded in 3 days, usually in the second day. However, the carbonated beers within one week tend have a sour tang, which might be caused by acetaldehyde.

The only exception is a Belgian Dark Strong at 1.1 OG with WLP530. Fermentation was done, reached FG, in a week or so. Bottled at 2.5th week after cold crash. After 6 months, the beer was totally flat with sweetness, except one bottle. All except that particular one bottle had nearly zero head space while that carbonated one had one inch head space. What I learn: some oxygen helps stressed yeast. If your yeast is stressed and no new yeast is added, using bottle bucket so that beer can mix with oxygen, or leave some oxygen in head space for the yeast.

 

[Miles_1111]

When I bottle, I also carbonate around 25C. I do not believe the relatively mild refermentation influences flavors. I usually add fresh yeast at bottling as well, especially for higher alcohol beers or those that have aged a while. As a reference, Duvel adds yeast and bottles at 24C, taking 2 weeks to complete conditioning.
https://www.duvel.com/en-us/the-beer/duvel

How do you put fresh yeast at bottling? Liquid yeast or dry? I only access to dry yeast.

 

[davidabcd]

To your original post, your cooler temperature is the reason for the delay. There's nothing at all unusual about it. Just condition within the range of the yeast. As mentioned, being patient is key.
There is no reason to attempt to rouse yeast early in bottle conditioning (a month) at 20°C. For one thing, it's mixing what air is in the headspace into the beer. I even saw a good comparison on HBF (UK) where the beer was noticeably darker from doing so. Second, yeast stays in suspension for a long time and will carbonate the beer when priming.
I had a high-ABV (14%) batch in the fermenter for eight months so I thought adding yeast at bottling might be warranted. I put a little sugar and water with a pack and let it get going. The sugar and water was so it would circulate throughout the batch in the bottling bucket.
Darker, high-ABV beers take at least a month to get going, in my experience.
But even a 9% DIPA? Done in a week or two at 70°F

 

[davidabcd]

@Miraculix
I don't get why low or no headspace would cause bottle bombs. There's no added sugar and the yeast will only ferment the added sugar (provided the added sugar is correctly measured). I would think that less headspace would do the opposite.
You mention "expansion" but I don't get that either.
Thanks.

 

[cire]

Yeast will take up all oxygen in the headspace. If there is fermentation in the beer and the oxygen isn't absorbed almost immediately, there is no yeast and the fermentation is created by some other organism.

Airspace is necessary for bottle conditioning in both commercial and home brewed beers.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix
I don't get why low or no headspace would cause bottle bombs. There's no added sugar and the yeast will only ferment the added sugar (provided the added sugar is correctly measured). I would think that less headspace would do the opposite.
You mention "expansion" but I don't get that either.
Thanks.

When temperatures change, liquids either shrink or expand. If there's sufficient air space, this air just gets a little bit compressed and that's actually no problem. If there's no air gap, or the gap is too small, the expansion still takes place and cracks the bottle. It's what happens if you throw a beer into the freezer, the water freezes and expands and cracks the bottle. Water also expands when heated. It has it's highest density at about 4c.

 

[MikeCo]

How do you put fresh yeast at bottling? Liquid yeast or dry? I only access to dry yeast.

I always use dry yeast, usually CBC-1, but I have also used BE-256 and T58 with with Belgian ales. I re-hydrate 2g to 4g of yeast in about 2 fl. oz. of water so it mixes well in the beer.

 

[davidabcd]

liquids either shrink or expand.

That much I'm familiar with; I guess I don't know where expansion or compression takes place on any significant level in the beer conditioning process. Freezing any beer could be a disaster.
I can see pressure being built from carbonation, of course, but not where the air is going to be needed to act as a safety valve to eliminate bottle bombs. That idea makes it appear that bottling is inherently dangerous.

 

[davidabcd]

To the "yeast at bottling time" question. I would only use the same yeast you used during fermentation. That way, no surprises with the bottling yeast being more effective than what you originally used.

 

[Miraculix]

That much I'm familiar with; I guess I don't know where expansion or compression takes place on any significant level in the beer conditioning process. Freezing any beer could be a disaster.
I can see pressure being built from carbonation, of course, but not where the air is going to be needed to act as a safety valve to eliminate bottle bombs. That idea makes it appear that bottling is inherently dangerous.

Bottling is dangerous but the danger can be managed by providing a sufficient safety buffer which is in this case the minimum amount of headspace. The same amount of liquid (meassured by mass) fills a different amount of volume at different temperatures. If it cannot expand, it will crack the thing that limits it's expansion, which in this case, is the glass. There is a limit of maximum expansion that can take place during our normal temperature range and under atmospheric pressure though, so as long as the headspace can buffer that expansion, no bottlebomb threads from liquid expansion.

In the summer, the beer is 10c warmer during storage? No air gap? --> bottle cracked. It has nothing to do with the conditioning process, just with temperature swings.

 

[MikeCo]

To the "yeast at bottling time" question. I would only use the same yeast you used during fermentation. That way, no surprises with the bottling yeast being more effective than what you originally used.

CBC-1 will only ferment simple sugars, i.e priming sugar, so it's very safe to use in bottle conditioning. If using brewer's yeast, I use a similar yeast to the primary yeast, but it doesn't need to be exact in my experience. For example, I wouldn't bottle with a saison yeast if the primary yeast was something with a significantly lower attenuation.

Always use a bottle conditioning calculator and weigh the priming sugar with a reliable scale.

 

[davidabcd]

In the summer, the beer is 10c warmer during storage?

I see where you're coming from now.
From a quick surveillance of expansion of liquids related to temperature, the temperature change of 10c would cause a miniscule increase and he/she has got a mm to work with. I'm not arguing that liquid doesn't expand or contract.

 

[davidabcd]

CBC-1 will only ferment simple sugars

Not that there aren't other options, it's just the safest, easiest to remember route is using the same yeast.

 

[cire]

Beer expands faster than glass, so be careful.

 

[Miraculix]

I see where you're coming from now.
From a quick surveillance of expansion of liquids related to temperature, the temperature change of 10c would cause a miniscule increase and he/she has got a mm to work with. I'm not arguing that liquid doesn't expand or contract.

We actually did practical tests while checking if the minimum headspace actually has a positive impact (which was proven correct) and somebody also tried to go as low as possible with zero to 1mm headspace and he had several bottles break because of this. Thers is not much gained by going down from 5mm to 1 mm but everything to loose, I would not do it.

 

[davidabcd]

5mm to 1 mm

Frankly, I've never tried it and never would. I don't know how it would be accomplished without making it a very slow process plus a drippy, sticky and sugary mess.
I take whatever bottle space my bottling wand gives me which is a little more than an inch.

 

[Miraculix]

Quick check, if you have 500 ml of water at 4C, you will have about 501 ml at 20C and more than 502 ml at 30C. Does the one mm air gap contain that much volume? Also keeping in mind that air cannot be compressed indefinetely, so maybe the effective space is just 50-70% of that air gap.

 

[Miraculix]

Frankly, I've never tried it and never would. I don't know how it would be accomplished without making it a very slow process plus a drippy, sticky and sugary mess.
I take whatever bottle space my bottling wand gives me which is a little more than an inch.

Press the end of the bottling wand to the inside of the neck and gently fill up the neck as well till you reach the 5mm. It really is worth it.

 

[josephort]

I think others are probably right that your slow times are just a function of low-ish temperature...

Firstly, I put around 2.7g of sugar in the bottom of each bottle

...but I have to ask, are you just putting undissolved sugar straight into your bottles? I've always primed using sugar that's dissolved in a small amount of boiling water and then gently stirred into the full volume of beer in the bottling bucket. This way, the sugar is dissolved and evenly distributed throughout the beer. If you've just got granules of sugar sitting at the bottom of each bottle, I would worry that it might take a long time to dissolve, potentially increasing the carbonation time. I would also worry about over or under-priming individual bottles and getting uneven results, but of course this doesn't need to be an issue as long as you measure carefully.

 

[Miraculix]

I think others are probably right that your slow times are just a function of low-ish temperature...

...but I have to ask, are you just putting undissolved sugar straight into your bottles? I've always primed using sugar that's dissolved in a small amount of boiling water and then gently stirred into the full volume of beer in the bottling bucket. This way, the sugar is dissolved and evenly distributed throughout the beer. If you've just got granules of sugar sitting at the bottom of each bottle, I would worry that it might take a long time to dissolve, potentially increasing the carbonation time. I would also worry about over or under-priming individual bottles and getting uneven results, but of course this doesn't need to be an issue as long as you measure carefully.

I'm also priming with granular sugar per bottle, it dissolves quickly enough, that is no problem.

 

[davidabcd]

undissolved sugar straight into your bottles

I basically bottle how you mention but having read enough posts here and on the UK sister site, even carbonation drops dissolve and carbonate without issue and the carb drops are all in one piece.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I dose individual bottles for my small batches.

If you've just got granules of sugar sitting at the bottom of each bottle, I would worry that it might take a long time to dissolve, potentially increasing the carbonation time.

Nothing to worry about.

I would also worry about over or under-priming individual bottles and getting uneven results, but of course this doesn't need to be an issue as long as you measure carefully.

For me, this is not an issue: use a Jewelry scale (+.001 accuracy); weight the sugar to desired weight +/- .005 g.

 

[josephort]

I'm also priming with granular sugar per bottle, it dissolves quickly enough, that is no problem.

Fair enough! I think of sugar as being kinda sluggish to dissolve in cold water and assumed the reason I had been taught to boil it was to ensure dissolution, but I believe your experience.

 

[z-bob]

I prime individual bottles with granulated sugar. The sugar dissolves quickly enough, but it stays at the bottoms of the bottles as a dense syrup. The next day I invert the bottles and shake them gently to mix it in; also it rouses any yeast that might have settled out already.

Regarding the minimum headspace, if you use plastic bottles you can fill it until the beer reaches the neck (or even if the last bottle doesn't go that high) then squeeze the bottle until the beer reaches the top, and put on the cap. You now have virtually no air in the bottle. The bottle will expand as CO2 is generated, then the beer will carbonate once the pressure starts building. If that last bottle was only half full, I might add a little extra sugar to account for the CO2 wasted in the headspace. If the last bottle is less than half full, I just drink it

I sometimes have trouble with beer carbonating if I fermented it with Kveik yeast. Probably because I'm conditioning it a lot colder than I fermented it. OTOH, It might be my imagination if I am just being impatient.

 

[Miraculix]

I prime individual bottles with granulated sugar. The sugar dissolves quickly enough, but it stays at the bottoms of the bottles as a dense syrup. The next day I invert the bottles and shake them gently to mix it in; also it rouses any yeast that might have settled out already.

Regarding the minimum headspace, if you use plastic bottles you can fill it until the beer reaches the neck (or even if the last bottle doesn't go that high) then squeeze the bottle until the beer reaches the top, and put on the cap. You now have virtually no air in the bottle. The bottle will expand as CO2 is generated, then the beer will carbonate once the pressure starts building. If that last bottle was only half full, I might add a little extra sugar to account for the CO2 wasted in the headspace. If the last bottle is less than half full, I just drink it

I sometimes have trouble with beer carbonating if I fermented it with Kveik yeast. Probably because I'm conditioning it a lot colder than I fermented it. OTOH, It might be my imagination if I am just being impatient.

I also had Kveik that took months to carbonate, although it being normal medium strength beer. I think it is because of the flocculation, it just sinks to the bottom of the bottle and says "nope, I'm done here Miser! Do that carbing thingy yourself, I want to sleep now.".

 

[bwible]

I take whatever bottle space my bottling wand gives me which is a little more than an inch.

I have a Phil’s Philler somewhere I used to love. I was getting infected batches and thought it might be the cause, as its stainless and I can’t see inside it. I tried pbw and star san, etc. its old and I can see there is some discoloration. I wish they still made these, I would buy another one. It leaves the perfect headspace as opposed to the clear plastic bottling wands which must be bigger and thicker because they leave more space. I find myself tilting the wand and bottle at the end of each fill and trying to press the tip down to get a little more in each bottle. But still leave plenty of space.

Note the amount of headspace in bottles of commercial beer. Thats by design. They don’t fill to 1mm.

 

[bwible]

I think others are probably right that your slow times are just a function of low-ish temperature...

...but I have to ask, are you just putting undissolved sugar straight into your bottles? I've always primed using sugar that's dissolved in a small amount of boiling water and then gently stirred into the full volume of beer in the bottling bucket. This way, the sugar is dissolved and evenly distributed throughout the beer. If you've just got granules of sugar sitting at the bottom of each bottle, I would worry that it might take a long time to dissolve, potentially increasing the carbonation time. I would also worry about over or under-priming individual bottles and getting uneven results, but of course this doesn't need to be an issue as long as you measure carefully.

I do this as well, batch prime in the bottling bucket. The sugar gets boiled in a small amount of water which at least in theory is more sanitary. And I always make sure to stir the bucket with a sanitized spoon after about every 8-10 bottles to redistribute the sugar so its more even. Again, at least in theory,

 

[Miles_1111]

I think others are probably right that your slow times are just a function of low-ish temperature...

...but I have to ask, are you just putting undissolved sugar straight into your bottles? I've always primed using sugar that's dissolved in a small amount of boiling water and then gently stirred into the full volume of beer in the bottling bucket. This way, the sugar is dissolved and evenly distributed throughout the beer. If you've just got granules of sugar sitting at the bottom of each bottle, I would worry that it might take a long time to dissolve, potentially increasing the carbonation time. I would also worry about over or under-priming individual bottles and getting uneven results, but of course this doesn't need to be an issue as long as you measure carefully.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, now I just put undissolved sugar straight into bottles, as I want to keep the procedure as simple as possible. Before I used to rack the beer in the bottling bucket with dissolved sugar mixed with water after boiling in it. Now I chose not to do that because firstly the beer exposes less to oxygen (oxidation was my biggest pain in the ass ) and secondly it saves me the effort to wash another bucket... Like you said, I do measure very carefully to make it even. From now on, I will do like the other post said to put the bottles up side down for a couple of days then put them back, in the environment around 20C, and see how the carbonation time goes. Another concern is that is 2.7g sugar too much for a bottle of 330ml? Because when the carbonation is good enough ( for example after 4 weeks), my beers have great foam, but the beer taste quite sweet.

 

[Miles_1111]

I'm also priming with granular sugar per bottle, it dissolves quickly enough, that is no problem.

How much prime sugar do you put in the bottle of 330ml?