List of PJ Electrical Diagrams

[BadNewsBrewery]

Could any of the experts here help me with the drawing below?

I intend to run a twin element Kettle as shown. Each element has it's own 20 amp breaker.

I will also be adding a PID/SSR to control a HLT.

Due to amp loading limitations, I need a selector switch to select between powering the HLT element or the second kettle element. One element on the kettle could always operate so it would be constant.

That way I can start heating the first runnings while doing the first & second batch sparge.

I know that my setup is not ideal but there isn't a practical option for dropping a dedicated 240v 60a circuit in my detached garage. Plus, this is more portable if I ever moved.

Your drawing shows each element with its own power supply, but then you say you need a switch because you can't share power - which is it? Why run 2 power supplies if you can't run both at the same time?

Also, if you have 2 kettles, but only 1 PID, you're going to potentially run into trouble, unless you switch temperature probes between them and only run one in auto mode and run the other in manual only. But even then, if you plan to have both elements on at the same time you'll need two PIDs. One PID can't reliably be used to heat 2 kettles, especially not 2 kettles at the same time.
-Kevin

 

[cantrell00]

2 120V/20A circuits coming into the controller

2 PID controllers

3 Elements. 2 - 5500w/120v on kettle & 1 - 2000w/120v on HLT HERMS

I need the ability to run the following combinations.

2x 5500 watts on kettle - no HERMS (one PID)

1x 5500 watts on kettle + 2000 w on HERMS (two PID's)

See modified drawing. I "think" this will work. Need someone to confirm.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

2 120V/20A circuits coming into the controller

2 PID controllers

3 Elements. 2 - 5500w/120v on kettle & 1 - 2000w/120v on HLT HERMS

I need the ability to run the following combinations.

2x 5500 watts on kettle - no HERMS (one PID)

1x 5500 watts on kettle + 2000 w on HERMS (two PID's)

See modified drawing. I "think" this will work. Need someone to confirm.

So now you have Kettle 1 and Kettle 2 served by the same PID, but from different plugs. So you couldn't have Kettle 1 and Kettle 2 on at the same time, but you could have Kettle 1 and HLT/HERMS on at the same time. And you can't have Kettle 2 and HLT/HERMS on at the same time as they share power. Sooooo.... you can only run kettle 2 by itself. Is that your plan?

 

[cantrell00]

So now you have Kettle 1 and Kettle 2 served by the same PID, but from different plugs. So you couldn't have Kettle 1 and Kettle 2 on at the same time, but you could have Kettle 1 and HLT/HERMS on at the same time. And you can't have Kettle 2 and HLT/HERMS on at the same time as they share power. Sooooo.... you can only run kettle 2 by itself. Is that your plan?

Sorry.. I identified things wrong on the schematic... I can see why it is confusing.

Kettle 1 & Kettle 2 are in reality Kettle element #1 & Kettle element #2.

My brew kettle, when boiling the full volume (7.5 gal) will be 2 - 120v lines coming in from two 20 amp circuits feeding 2 - 5500 watt/120 volt elements controlled by 1 PID. This is the original schematic drawn by P J.

In addition to this, I need to add a PID to control my HERMS/HLT. That will consist of 1 - 120v line feeding a 2000 watt/120 volt element & controlled by the second PID.

To start the boil of the first runnings while batch sparging the mash, I will need to split the two to where one 120 v line coming in has the PID & kettle while the other has the other PID & HLT/HERMS.

Does the modifications I made to P J's drawing accomplish that?

Is there a better way?

I honestly don't know where else you can split those two 120v feeds coming in other than at the output from the two SSR's.

You can't dedicate each leg to each element because 1 PID/element won't maintain a 7.5 gallon boil. I need two.

You can't split them at the PID output level because as you noted, both have to be controlled independently.

The only other option I see as possible is the SSR level.

I'd just feel better if someone with much more experience than me would say - yes, this will work. Or, no it won't. Or, this will.

Never will I need more that two elements running.

2 provided by 2 - 120 volt services on two separate PID's. Or one on each PID.

NEVER 2 on one PID and one on the other.

A dedicated 240v service is not an option.

 

[cantrell00]

Does P J monitor this thread anymore?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I can't say if PJ monitors any more or not, sorry. I do have a question though - do you happen to know if your two 120v outlets are on the same "phase" in your panel, or are they on opposite phases? If they're opposite, you could look into possible ways to make your kettle 240v instead of 120v.

That being said - what you've got currently shown should work in theory. I'm not sure how the PID will handle running two SSRs in reality, but on paper it looks good to me.
-Kevin

 

[P-J]

P-J is here every day.

My problem now is my version of Windows. The computer I have only supports up to Windows XP and I need to upgrade to a much later PC version to move to a more current version of windows. XP is no longer supported by anyone. I cannot afford the cost of replacing my computer. SO SORRY....

Bottom line -- Getting very old just plainly sucks.

My personal web site no longer supports Windows XP. I can no longer upload diagrams to post on this very important (FOR ME) forum. Basically - The root of my problem in posting info and diagrams.

So sorry to every one. Maya Culpa..

P-J

(Edit) Getting old sucks. I'll be 75 next month. Still pitching & hope I last a liitle more time. Lots of stuff for me to do..

P-J
(/edit)

 

[sweetcell]

ok, whose up for contributing to the "Get P-J a New Computer" fund?

We can get a Windows 7 machine for under $100 (ex: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8925224&CatId=2628). obviously we would work with P-J to ensure we get a suitable machine to him.

a few folks pitch in $5-10 and we're there. who here won't say that P-J's help is worth $5? seems like the least we can do to thank P-J for all the effort he's put in to this forum.

(this is assuming someone doesn't have a machine to give to him... in fact, i need to check if work has some extras)

 

[jammin]

^Im in

 

[cantrell00]

I can't say if PJ monitors any more or not, sorry. I do have a question though - do you happen to know if your two 120v outlets are on the same "phase" in your panel, or are they on opposite phases? If they're opposite, you could look into possible ways to make your kettle 240v instead of 120v.

That being said - what you've got currently shown should work in theory. I'm not sure how the PID will handle running two SSRs in reality, but on paper it looks good to me.
-Kevin

No clue as to which phase they are on but do know that they are on separate 20 amp breakers.

As for the PID, I agree. I had just assumed that it would work when I found the schematic to do it on this site.

That being said, the two SSR's are parallel on the same output of the PID so that would suggest that they are each receiving the exact same signal & you have to think that two identical SSR's will behave the exact same way.

Sorry about P J's computer deal. Yeah, that sucks.

 

[cantrell00]

.

 

[67cougargt]

ok, whose up for contributing to the "Get P-J a New Computer" fund?

We can get a Windows 7 machine for under $100 (ex: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8925224&CatId=2628). obviously we would work with P-J to ensure we get a suitable machine to him.

a few folks pitch in $5-10 and we're there. who here won't say that P-J's help is worth $5? seems like the least we can do to thank P-J for all the effort he's put in to this forum.

(this is assuming someone doesn't have a machine to give to him... in fact, i need to check if work has some extras)

Absolutely! What I was thinking, I'm in.

 

[Clweed]

I just found this thread looking for a diagram for a pid gas system. Those diagrams are awesome and selfless.

I'm in for donating to the fund.

ok, whose up for contributing to the "Get P-J a New Computer" fund?

We can get a Windows 7 machine for under $100 (ex: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8925224&CatId=2628). obviously we would work with P-J to ensure we get a suitable machine to him.

a few folks pitch in $5-10 and we're there. who here won't say that P-J's help is worth $5? seems like the least we can do to thank P-J for all the effort he's put in to this forum.

(this is assuming someone doesn't have a machine to give to him... in fact, i need to check if work has some extras)

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

That being said, the two SSR's are parallel on the same output of the PID so that would suggest that they are each receiving the exact same signal & you have to think that two identical SSR's will behave the exact same way.

Dangerous game to play assuming that two electrical components will behave in the exact same way. I'm guessing it will work, but having not tested it (nor recalling anyone here who has) you take a risk. Electricity, especially DC, takes the path of least resistance back to ground. If one SSR has a lower resistance to activate, it may trip while the higher one doesn't - or they may both trip - I have no idea. Give it a shot - worst case scenario, it doesn't work and we figure out a plan B which wouldn't be too hard.

-Kevin

 

[ajdelange]

..... two 20 amp circuits feeding 2 - 5500 watt/120 volt elements controlled by 1 PID.

5500/120 = 45.8

Are these 5500 watt, 240V heaters being run at 120? In that case the current would be within the breaker's rating (11.5 Amps) but the heat produced would be a piddling 1375 W.

 

[ajdelange]

No clue as to which phase they are on but do know that they are on separate 20 amp breakers.

That's easily determined. Plug an extension cord (3 prong type) of sufficient length into one outlet and take the female end to the other outlet. Now connect an AC voltmeter between the narrow blade slots on the extension cord and the other outlet. If you read 0 volts the outlets are on the same phase. If you read 240 they are on opposite phases.

If the phases are opposite you have 20*240 = 4800W total available to you. If they are the same phase you have 2*20*120 = 4800W total so I don't see how being biphase would help. But then I'm a little foggy this morning.

 

[ajdelange]

Dangerous game to play assuming that two electrical components will behave in the exact same way. I'm guessing it will work, but having not tested it (nor recalling anyone here who has) you take a risk. Electricity, especially DC, takes the path of least resistance back to ground. If one SSR has a lower resistance to activate, it may trip while the higher one doesn't - or they may both trip - I have no idea. Give it a shot - worst case scenario, it doesn't work and we figure out a plan B which wouldn't be too hard.

-Kevin

Two SSR's won't be exactly the same. One may trigger at 2.1 volts and the other at 2.2. That's why we send them a 5V signal. Similarly their 'On' impedances will be slightly different as will their off leakages. There's a bloke on here who is doing a 3ø system using 3 SSR's all triggered by the same controller. As long as the controller has enough fanout to handle three SSR's everything should be fine.

 

[Spellman]

I'm in for the "Get P-J a New Computer" fund. I got $25 with his name on it, we just need someone to figure out how to take care of this. His diagrams taught me a lot about electricity, and it is the very least I could do. If this were like January or February I would have a computer like the one in the link I could just donate, but thats a ways out and I don't think we should have him wait that long.

 

[cantrell00]

5500/120 = 45.8

Are these 5500 watt, 240V heaters being run at 120? In that case the current would be within the breaker's rating (11.5 Amps) but the heat produced would be a piddling 1375 W.

Yes... I agree that it isn't ideal wattage but I am running two & will have a starting heat point of ~150 degrees. I will be able to run 1 while sparging so it should cut out some of the wait time.

A half hour here or there isn't the end of the world, either way...

Thanks for the input..

 

[cantrell00]

Dangerous game to play assuming that two electrical components will behave in the exact same way. I'm guessing it will work, but having not tested it (nor recalling anyone here who has) you take a risk. Electricity, especially DC, takes the path of least resistance back to ground. If one SSR has a lower resistance to activate, it may trip while the higher one doesn't - or they may both trip - I have no idea. Give it a shot - worst case scenario, it doesn't work and we figure out a plan B which wouldn't be too hard.

-Kevin

Yup... Looks like I may have oversimplified but based on ajdelange comments, I should be ok afterall. Fingers crossed.

 

[cantrell00]

That's easily determined. Plug an extension cord (3 prong type) of sufficient length into one outlet and take the female end to the other outlet. Now connect an AC voltmeter between the narrow blade slots on the extension cord and the other outlet. If you read 0 volts the outlets are on the same phase. If you read 240 they are on opposite phases.

If the phases are opposite you have 20*240 = 4800W total available to you. If they are the same phase you have 2*20*120 = 4800W total so I don't see how being biphase would help. But then I'm a little foggy this morning.

20 amps is the limiter in my situation if I am reading you correctly.

So I agree - nothing really gained.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

True, 20amps is 20amps, but then you have to ask what's available. I could only find a 1500w, 120v ULWD element - everything above that got into high-density elements and you risk scorching the wort. 1500w x 2 = 3000w, so you're using about 60% of what you have available to you. You can get a 4500w 240v ULWD element, so you'd only have 1 hole in your kettle, 1 PID, and you'd get the most heating ability out of your available 20 amps.

Either method should probably work - just looking at alternatives to help you think through your process.

 

[cantrell00]

True, 20amps is 20amps, but then you have to ask what's available. I could only find a 1500w, 120v ULWD element - everything above that got into high-density elements and you risk scorching the wort. 1500w x 2 = 3000w, so you're using about 60% of what you have available to you. You can get a 4500w 240v ULWD element, so you'd only have 1 hole in your kettle, 1 PID, and you'd get the most heating ability out of your available 20 amps.

Either method should probably work - just looking at alternatives to help you think through your process.

No doubt & certainly appreciated.

My original thinking was that I would need two PID's. One for the HERMS & one for the Kettle.

At 120 or 240 volts - it will very difficult to power any two elements at the same time with only 20 amps available.

UNLESS I were to alternate between a single PID. Hmmm, that may be something that I should consider more.

HERMS/HLT PID MODE

1) Heat mash water to strike.
2) Mash In
3) HERMS recirculation
5) Batch sparge

Switch to Kettle PID MODE

6) Boil

How much time do I lose by not heating the first runnings while doing the batch sparging?

30 minutes?

I will check those two legs & see what I have to work with.. A single 240/20 amp service may be the way to go after all.

Certainly simplifies that controller. Only one PID & SSR to power a single 4500 watt/240 v element that is switched from one pot to the other.

 

[ajdelange]

20 amps is the limiter in my situation if I am reading you correctly.

Yes, you are. However if you are curious as to whether you are on different phases or the same one there is an even simpler test. If the two breakers are right above one another in the panel then they are on opposite phases (unless it's a weird panel).

 

[cantrell00]

Yes, you are. However if you are curious as to whether you are on different phases or the same one there is an even simpler test. If the two breakers are right above one another in the panel then they are on opposite phases (unless it's a weird panel).

I will check it out...

Right above one another on the same side of the panel, right?

Seems obvious but wanted to clarify..

*********NEVERMIND - GOT IT*************

 

[ajdelange]

Yes.

 

[cantrell00]

Well...

My volt meter is shorted so will have to buy another one...

I did remove the cover on my breaker panel... If I am following you, each breaker alternates between A & B phase (or vice versa) as you work down.

As for my setup - both circuits are on the same side of the buss. The first one is the second slot & the last is on the 10th slot, so both are on the same phase, I think.

It looks like I could swap the wires from #9 & #10 though. Would obviously have to swap the labels as well. Both are 20 amp circuits.

Wouldn't that work? I would obviously have to shut off the main but it looks like only one wire is involved & fairly easy to access.

Am I oversimplifying?

 

[j1morse]

Would really appreciate the help! Pretty new to this type of schematic, but think I've got it together, or at least close. Thanks for any help!

First off let me say this is my first post, but I've been scouring this site for a very long time. I've built a brew stand from the wonderful threads on here, and now I'm looking to build my control panel. I've been searching through every thread I could find on wiring control panels and I have seen tons of amazing PJ schematics. Many were very close to what I was trying to do but not exact. I used what parts I could to build what I'm hoping will be my final product and I'm wondering if PJ, you or someone else on this thread could check my work?

I have two Steelhead pumps, a 1500w 120VAC element and a pair of Auberin PID's. I would like one PID to control my element which will be used to maintain temperature in my HLT while I use one pump to flow through my HERMS. The other PID will be used to monitor temperature as I flow out of my MTLT and I may add a 3 way switch to toggle to a boil kettle probe to check status on the boil. as it's ramping up. I threw in a couple indicator lights for system power and element firing. I'm looking to run this from either a 15A or 20A circuit (probably needs to be 20A). Any suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated!

Also attached is a photo of my current brew system minus my HLT. Couldn't have done any of this without the help of this forum!

 

[ajdelange]

I did remove the cover on my breaker panel...

I generally don't recommend that people do that.

If I am following you, each breaker alternates between A & B phase (or vice versa) as you work down.

As you work down a side. This allows an electrician to put in single pole, single unit width breakers down each side distributing the load as he goes or to install a two pole double width breaker in two slots for 240 V circuits.

As for my setup - both circuits are on the same side of the buss. The first one is the second slot & the last is on the 10th slot, so both are on the same phase, I think.

That's what I would expect but you would need the voltmeter to verify.

It looks like I could swap the wires from #9 & #10 though. Would obviously have to swap the labels as well. Both are 20 amp circuits.

Again I don't recommend that people fiddle in their panels unless qualified or unless under the supervision of a qualified person but yes, a qualified person could swap wires and labels between an adjacent pair of single width breakers and so swap the phases to which they are attached.

Wouldn't that work? I would obviously have to shut off the main but it looks like only one wire is involved & fairly easy to access.

You'd have to move two wires. It may actually be easier to just swap the positions of the breakers.

Am I oversimplifying?

No but the question again arises as to what to do with the two outlets on opposing phases. No doubt that would allow you to construct 240 V circuits in your garage. The question is as to how to do it safely. There are devices that one can buy that can be plugged into two opposite phases outlets that have a 240 V receptacle on the female end. Are these UL approved? I have no idea. What would your insurance company have to say if there were an electrical fire, even one unrelated to these circuits, and they found this stuff in the ashes? Again I don't know and wouldn't want to undertake such a project until I had consulted someone who did.

The appeal of using a pair of 4500 W 240 heaters is clearly great but connecting them to a single circuit, even with an interlock, violates the letter (we could argue about the spirit but how would we do in this argument if it were with an insurance adjuster?) of Secs 210, 220 and 384 of the NEC which state that a breaker must be sized to 100% of the current demand of all intermittent loads on the circuit. One of the most appealing aspects is that one could, with a little additional circuitry (a pair of diodes and switches/contactors) arrange to have either on at full power or both on at half power (2250 W) and still draw less than 20 amps.

 

[ajdelange]

Would really appreciate the help! Pretty new to this type of schematic, but think I've got it together, or at least close. Thanks for any help!

Yes, it is much easier to deduce the 'logic' from a ladder diagram but most here don't seem to be familiar with those and the logic is simple enough in most of these diagrams that you should be able to dope it out.

Not sure what sort of help you are looking for. What you have appears to work but you certainly have lots of bells and whistles. I'm pretty sure the goal here is to have something neat looking (lots of lights) as well as something functional but you could certainly simplify things a lot. You don't need a switch with a pilot light to energize a device (PID controller) that has pilot lights of its own, for example nor do you need to separately power the contactor and the controller. You have a controller that doesn't control anything. I assume that it is a temperature display and as I recall the Auber units are inexpensive enough to justify that.

Final comment on the "element firing" lamp. It only indicates that voltage has been applied to the element, not that it is producing heat. To indicate that it is producing heat (drawing current) take a big washer and pass one of the heater leads through it. Wind several turn of fine (magnet) wire through this washer and hook that up to a led. You will have to experiment a bit with the number of turns of magnet wire. Or buy a current transformer.

 

[cantrell00]

I generally don't recommend that people do that.


As you work down a side. This allows an electrician to put in single pole, single unit width breakers down each side distributing the load as he goes or to install a two pole double width breaker in two slots for 240 V circuits.

That's what I would expect but you would need the voltmeter to verify.

Again I don't recommend that people fiddle in their panels unless qualified or unless under the supervision of a qualified person but yes, a qualified person could swap wires and labels between an adjacent pair of single width breakers and so swap the phases to which they are attached.



You'd have to move two wires. It may actually be easier to just swap the positions of the breakers.




No but the question again arises as to what to do with the two outlets on opposing phases. No doubt that would allow you to construct 240 V circuits in your garage. The question is as to how to do it safely. There are devices that one can buy that can be plugged into two opposite phases outlets that have a 240 V receptacle on the female end. Are these UL approved? I have no idea. What would your insurance company have to say if there were an electrical fire, even one unrelated to these circuits, and they found this stuff in the ashes? Again I don't know and wouldn't want to undertake such a project until I had consulted someone who did.

The appeal of using a pair of 4500 W 240 heaters is clearly great but connecting them to a single circuit, even with an interlock, violates the letter (we could argue about the spirit but how would we do in this argument if it were with an insurance adjuster?) of Secs 210, 220 and 384 of the NEC which state that a breaker must be sized to 100% of the current demand of all intermittent loads on the circuit. One of the most appealing aspects is that one could, with a little additional circuitry (a pair of diodes and switches/contactors) arrange to have either on at full power or both on at half power (2250 W) and still draw less than 20 amps.

I follow... These two receptacles will require a drop from each receptacle to my controller box... So the only time it would be ran this way is when I would be brewing.

And just to clarify, combining the two 120 outlets would result in a single 20A/4500V element, not two.

Thanks a ton for taking the time to write all of this in such detail.

I will consult with my electrician friend and have him make the modifications assuming I choose to go that route.

 

[jeffmeh]

Final comment on the "element firing" lamp. It only indicates that voltage has been applied to the element, not that it is producing heat. To indicate that it is producing heat (drawing current) take a big washer and pass one of the heater leads through it. Wind several turn of fine (magnet) wire through this washer and hook that up to a led. You will have to experiment a bit with the number of turns of magnet wire. Or buy a current transformer.

I'm a bit confused here. Is it not easier to just wire an LED at the appropriate voltage (240v or 120v) in parallel with the element?

 

[ajdelange]

And just to clarify, combining the two 120 outlets would result in a single 20A/4500V element, not two.

O.K. I thought you were trying to run an HLT or mashtun and a kettle. In that case my suggestion would have allowed you to run the HLT at 4500W as long as the kettle is off or the kettle at 4500W as long as the HLT is off or the mash tun and the kettle at 2250W each.

Thanks a ton for taking the time to write all of this in such detail.

No problem.

I will consult with my electrician friend and have him make the modifications assuming I choose to go that route.

That's the ticket.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm a bit confused here. Is it not easier to just wire an LED at the appropriate voltage (240v or 120v) in parallel with the element?

Well yes but as the quote says all that does is tell you that voltage is being applied to the element. It does not tell you that the element is drawing current. In the drawing in the referencing post he would get a green light with the voltage connection even if the element were not plugged in. The current sense indicator verifies that the heater is indeed producing heat (as long as the heater and not some other load is plugged into the heater outlet).

 

[cantrell00]

O.K. I thought you were trying to run an HLT or mashtun and a kettle. In that case my suggestion would have allowed you to run the HLT at 4500W as long as the kettle is off or the kettle at 4500W as long as the HLT is off or the mash tun and the kettle at 2250W each.

The 240 volt changed everything. Originally it was going to be a 120 volt circuit on the BK & one on the HLT.

I lose some flexibility alternating between the BK & HLT with a single PID & SSR but the 4500 watts more than makes up for any time loss (& then some).

The controller is obviously much more simple & significantly less expensive.

I just need to heat enough water in my HLT for the strike + the batch sparge while running the HERMS.

Get all the wort in the kettle & switch over the plug.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Would really appreciate the help! Pretty new to this type of schematic, but think I've got it together, or at least close. Thanks for any help!

Everything you show as drawn should work fine. Maybe a bit excessive as some have said, but if that's what you want - it'll work.
-Kevin

 

[cantrell00]

 

[Sleepyemt]

Hey all, I have a pic of the diagram for a RIMS controlled to keep mash temps steady. Would buying the RIMS Rocket and plugging it into the diagram work instead of building one?

Appreciate it

 

[bigtex52]

As long as you are using correct voltage and amperage device(s) for the design, I don't see why not.

 

[67cougargt]

P-J is here every day.

My problem now is my version of Windows. The computer I have only supports up to Windows XP and I need to upgrade to a much later PC version to move to a more current version of windows. XP is no longer supported by anyone. I cannot afford the cost of replacing my computer. SO SORRY....

Bottom line -- Getting very old just plainly sucks.

My personal web site no longer supports Windows XP. I can no longer upload diagrams to post on this very important (FOR ME) forum. Basically - The root of my problem in posting info and diagrams.

So sorry to every one. Maya Culpa..

P-J

(Edit) Getting old sucks. I'll be 75 next month. Still pitching & hope I last a liitle more time. Lots of stuff for me to do..

P-J
(/edit)

Are you still in need of a computer? I would look like to post a new thread and see if we can find one for you. You have given so much to this community.