lagering on a yeast cake

[Stubbs5150]

My lager has fermented slowly for one month on wyeast 2206 at 50 degrees to a gravity of 1025 then i bumped it up to 60 degrees for a diacetyl rest. my question is do i have to rack off the yeast cake to lager or is it ok to sit on the yeast cake for one more month lagering?

 

[jason.mundy]

Lager on the cake.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/525

Ignore this. It was bad advise.

 

[Yooper]

Lager on the cake.

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/525

that's the first time I've ever heard that one. I've always been a big believer in racking off lagers as soon as the diacetyl rest is completed.

I dont' have an hour to listen to the episode tonight- can you give me the cliff notes behind the science of that? That's the exact opposite of what they say to do for lagers in their book "Brewing Classic Styles" where they say to pitch cold, do a diacetyl rest if needed, and then rack before lagering.

 

[Revvy]

that's the first time I've ever heard that one. I've always been a big believer in racking off lagers as soon as the diacetyl rest is completed.

I dont' have an hour to listen to the episode tonight- can you give me the cliff notes behind the science of that? That's the exact opposite of what they say to do for lagers in their book "Brewing Classic Styles" where they say to pitch cold, do a diacetyl rest if needed, and then rack before lagering.

I agree with yoop....as much as I am not a yeast phobe and advocate long primaries and no secondaries, where lagers are concerned , and since palmer talks about autolysis as an issue for lagers, I believe it is best to lager in secondary, off the yeast cake. A month on a cake is one thing...beyond that....and for something meant to have a clean profile like a lager, where any flaw is perceivable, I wouldn't go beyond the month in primary.

 

[TexLaw]

I've made a lot of lagers and never lagered on the cake. If you are doing a true lager, autolysis is not much of an issue, since you are keeping it so cold. For me, it was a matter of getting the damn beer in the keg and be done with it.

My typical regimen on lagers (other than high gravity ones) is two weeks (or so) in the primary, two weeks (or so) in the secondary, and then keg it for lagering at 34F. As I'm racking to the keg, I take my hydrometer sample that also serves as the tasting sample to let me know if I need a diacetyl rest. If I do, I leave the keg out of the cooler (unde pressure) for a couple days before doing another diacetyl check (which is very easy and sanitary, now that I am in a keg). Since that test has always come out fine, the keg has always gone into the cooler (under pressure) for lagering.


TL

 

[menschmaschine]

The main reason to get lagers off of the primary yeast is to reduce the risk of off-flavors associated with decaying yeast cells (this isn't autolysis, per se) and other components of trub, since lagers are supposed to be "clean".

Since it is reported that lager yeast can excrete proteolytic enzymes (foam killers) when cooled too quickly, I suspect this may be possible to occur naturally on a yeast cake over time as well, but that one is just me postulating, since I can't readily back myself up on it.

 

[Stubbs5150]

thanks everyone, shall be racking soon and lagering....

 

[Malticulous]

I've done it and not noticed any difference form using a secondary, but those were only lagered for a few weeks then bottled (and when lagered I mean crashed to 31F.) If I wanted to lager it longer it was in the bottle. None of those were over four weeks from brew day when I bottled them.

 

[michael.berta]

I think that the healthier your yeast the cleaner your process the less it matters. But having said that I just lager in kegs. So basically after the D-Rest I'll crash cool for a few days and then rack to a keg and lager.

 

[joety]

When you crash cool, do you aim for the original fermentation temp, say 50 degrees F?

 

[jkarp]

Just to throw out an opposing datapoint, I've NEVER done a secondary on lagers, have gone up to 8 weeks at 32 deg on the yeast, and everyone's loved my lager brews. Never had even a hint of off flavors from yeast. I'm far more concerned by oxygen introduction during racking. "Wet cardboard" flavors REALLY stand out in lagers.

 

[michael.berta]

Just to throw out an opposing datapoint, I've NEVER done a secondary on lagers, have gone up to 8 weeks at 32 deg on the yeast, and everyone's loved my lager brews. Never had even a hint of off flavors from yeast. I'm far more concerned by oxygen introduction during racking. "Wet cardboard" flavors REALLY stand out in lagers.

Good point

 

[michael.berta]

When you crash cool, do you aim for the original fermentation temp, say 50 degrees F?

I crash down to about freezing.

 

[joety]

I crash down to about freezing.

Interesting, I've seen others that crash to a higher temp and then lower 1 degree per day until freezing, then lager another month.

 

[Malticulous]

Many of us home brewers have crashed lagers. AFAIK none have had problems from it.

 

[Tonedef131]

I don't think leaving it on the cake or racking off once everything is done will matter either way. It's really only important to leave it long enough to make sure everything else is done, after that I will rack it to a keg and lager it there. Doing a secondary would be pretty silly.