Keezer / Fermentation build

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kpr121

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Just got this deep freezer on Craigslist for 75 bucks, it's a whirlpool 9 cf. preliminarily looks like il be able to fit 5 cornies on floor and maybe one on hump.

What I want to do is build something like I've seen on here with a separate chamber for fermenting that is air cooled with vents and pc fans.

Also have thoughts to butt the whole thing up against an internal wall and build a box to put taps on the opposite side, which is our gameroom and possibly future bar.

Lots there I know, this will be a running build thread. Any input would be appreciated!

Here's pic of the future keezer. Dimensions are 23.5 deep, 35 wide and 35 high to the top of lid.View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1421802484.507223.jpg
 
Mock up of how it will look on top of keezer. It's just sitting on top of the freezer now but plan is to move existing door to the top of the ferment chamber. That way I can open it to get a racking came into the fermenters.

For the interface between freezer and chamber I'm thinking of just attaching some foam weather stripping and letting gravity take care of the stability (this thing is going to be heavy). Might attach a 1x1 or something to the bottom of box just so it doesn't have tendency to slide around but I don't want to drill holes or otherwise manipulate the freezer (other than taking the hinges off)

On the top, I'll need to build a frame out of 1x6 or 1x8 to get the dimensions back and allow the freezer door to sit on. (notice the ferm box is bigger than the freezer, this is so I can more easily fit multiple fermenters). Hopefully I can attach the hinges like that, hadn't really put much thought into it until just now.

I also put together the front panel, single sheet of 1/2 ply and attached a door (not pictured yet). Still need to insulate that, thinking I'm just going to use some 3/4 foam board in lieu of those prefab panels to keep weight down (also easier to work with).

A challenge is going to be getting the front door to seal. Right now it will just sit flush with the rest of the front. Might need to trim it out with something either inside or outside the front wall with weather stripping.





View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1422295337.993149.jpg
 
Didn't do a great job with pictures but the two pieces of ply on box bottom are able to be removed to get into the keezer. I glued a piece of the prefab insulated panels to each of them. I've attached a picture showing these pieces from the bottom.

I think I'll usually only need to access the left side, so In the back right corner (directly above compressor hump) I plan to drill the holes for the ducting into and out of the keezer. Pc fan will turn on when the ferm box temp controller tells it to. Will probably have quick connection on the wires so that if need be I can pull the right panel as well. Right now planning only one fan pulling cold air out of the keezer and letting exhaust drop back through the other.

Not 100% sure where I'm going to mount the controller but probably will be on the front face, top right so kiddies can't mess with it. Ordered an stc1000+ from blackboxbrew.com so that I can set ferm profile (ramping, farenheit readout, etc).

Plan to seal up all the gaps with great stuff and silicone caulking. Also use aluminum foil tape over any exposed styrofoam edges since that stuff has a tendancy to get everywhere.

I think that's about it for now. Any questions or comments let me know!
 
I saw your signature link of this thread in another old thread I just read. Check out what I did this summer, very similar to what you are going to do. PM me if you have any questions along the way. I love my setup, it's great way to go if you have limited floor-space.

FYI I just did foam weatherstipping between the ferm base and freezer, i later wished I had thought to use the strip that was on the freezer lid, I think it could easily be stapled onto the wood then it would be a great seal.

Cheers,
Steve
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
I saw your signature link of this thread in another old thread I just read. Check out what I did this summer, very similar to what you are going to do. PM me if you have any questions along the way. I love my setup, it's great way to go if you have limited floor-space.

FYI I just did foam weatherstipping between the ferm base and freezer, i later wished I had thought to use the strip that was on the freezer lid, I think it could easily be stapled onto the wood then it would be a great seal.

Cheers,
Steve
Click to expand...

Steve,
Thanks for checking out my thread! Your FrankenKeezer is one of the inspirations for my project! I haven’t done anything with the cooling runs yet, was originally planning on air ducting it but if I did a ‘faux’ glycol run it would take up much less footprint in the ferm chamber. That’s probably a decision I need to make soon. Air cooled would be cheaper (couple pc fans and spare ducting, I think I have all that in the garage now).

A question for you: How much of a pain is it to move the fermenters, false floors, etc. every time you need to change out a keg? (i.e. if floor space were not extremely limited would you still do this type setup?) Right now, I’ve been contemplating that I could probably get away with putting the box on the ground next to the keezer without getting rid of anything currently in the brew room, but I’d like to have the space for expansion. I guess Im struggling with what’s more needed for me in the brewery, floor space or counter/shelf space.

I may be shooting some PMs your way in the future.

Oh, and as far as the seal between freezer and box, I plan on reusing the freezer lid on top of all this so I have the option to open it and get a racking cane in there if needed.
 
kpr121 said:
Steve,
Thanks for checking out my thread! Your FrankenKeezer is one of the inspirations for my project! I haven’t done anything with the cooling runs yet, was originally planning on air ducting it but if I did a ‘faux’ glycol run it would take up much less footprint in the ferm chamber. That’s probably a decision I need to make soon. Air cooled would be cheaper (couple pc fans and spare ducting, I think I have all that in the garage now).

A question for you: How much of a pain is it to move the fermenters, false floors, etc. every time you need to change out a keg? (i.e. if floor space were not extremely limited would you still do this type setup?) Right now, I’ve been contemplating that I could probably get away with putting the box on the ground next to the keezer without getting rid of anything currently in the brew room, but I’d like to have the space for expansion. I guess Im struggling with what’s more needed for me in the brewery, floor space or counter/shelf space.

I may be shooting some PMs your way in the future.

Oh, and as far as the seal between freezer and box, I plan on reusing the freezer lid on top of all this so I have the option to open it and get a racking cane in there if needed.
Click to expand...

I think the faux glycol is the way to go: the limited footprint is really nice. The cost is probably about $50 for a single chamber. The pumps are like $20 on amazon, and the tranny cooler is about $25. I also bought a really small pump for like $5 to kick on in the cooling water reservoir when the freezer kicks on. The key here in my mind for the faux glycol is the limited footprint, i've had times where i didn't have any cooling in there so i could maximize the kegs in the keezer. Lately I just have a 5 gallon homer bucket on the hump filled with water and that also works well.

I would still do this setup even if i didn't have floor space limitations, the wow factor I get when folks see it the first time is priceless! :) But really I dont mind the false floor to get to the kegs. I did find my setup it too high for me to get into with a step stool or something. I have a little 2' folding platform I got at Harbor frieght. I step up on that, push the carboys to the back of the chamber and I can get the front panel out. If i need to open it up more I do need to take the carboys out and remove both panels.

Honestly though at this point i've just been waiting to do my tinkering down in the keezer until the ferm chambers are empty. If a keg kicks i haven't had any problems just leaving the kegs in there for a few weeks, then pulling them for cleaning and rinsing the lines when I have the time. It takes a bit more planning but isn't a big deal, IMO.

Also when I am in there I try my best to move the older kegs to the front so I can swap then out easier with the ferm chambers full if i have to.

let me know if you have any other questions.
 
Well after doing a little more research (and some help from HausBrauerei_Harvey, thanks!) I decided I am going to go the ‘faux glycol’ route:

-5 gallon bucket on the hump, filled with water/coolant.

-fountain pump inside the 5 gallon bucket to recirc the liquid and promote better cooling, set to turn on when the freezer does.

-Small pond pump set on STC-1000+ to send the water through a transmission cooler affixed in the ferm box.

-PC fan pulling air from the tran cooler (set on same STC-1000+).

-Will probably also need a PC fan in the freezer itself just to circulate cold air and minimize moisture buildup.


I originally was thinking that this was going to be an expensive option but I basically have everything I need except for tranny cooler.

Apparent advantages:

-Takes up less floor space in ferment chamber (would have needed to run two ducts through the floor if air cooled)

-I may end up running a separate pump to chill the serving lines that are going to be going through the wall

-I think it will help with moisture. I obviously want to seal up the entire chamber of any air leaks. But with a forced air setup the freezer would be seeing all of the air from both areas (freezer and ferment box) quite often, even when I wasn’t running the ferm box. With the liquid cooling I don’t have to worry too much about opening the ferm box frequently (thinking during racking of beers or when not in use I can just shut the STC-1000+ off and let the ferm box warm up to room temp, the freezer wont be affected).

-Im not sure but I think this will be more efficient (less freezer run time).

-It’s a much ‘cooler’ option (pun intended)

Disadvantages:

-Lose hump space in freezer (not to big of a deal, I will probably end up running CO2 to the outside of box)

-Slightly more upfront costs ($35 for tranny cooler, I think I have everything else I need in spare parts)

-Maybe a little more maintenance, changing of water, pumps, etc. (should be minor)

Here’s the cooler I went with:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000C3F3HK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
 
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Well I re-started this project this weekend…and I quickly didn’t make any progress. Turns out that the brackets (or at least one of them) on those chest freezers have very strong springs in them. And if you aren’t careful they could become unhinged very quickly. And if your face is anywhere near said bracket it will hit you square in the nose. And you will end up in the hospital with a broken nose.

Yep. My keezer gave me a broken nose.

Havent gotten the gusto to finish the project yet. I feel like the music from that crappy DIY show “Renovation Realities” (where the show always ends with the couple sitting in the corner of their unfinished kitchen sobbing) should accompany this thread.
 
Oh No! Wish you a speedy recovery man. Put a pin in the other hinge before taking it off. Wish you were around the corner i'd come help you for a weekend.
 
Well I got it operational today. I ended up going with a "side by side " configuration as it was going to be very tight getting kegs in and out due to the size of freezer, plus I could use the extra counter space in the brewery.

The radiator cooling setup works great it seems, dropped air temp down 5 degrees in less than 10 min and the water bath wasn't even all the way cold, it was around 50 F.

Gonna pretty it up a little bit over the next couple weeks / months/ years/ and I'll get pics up. For now as long as it's working I'm happy.
 
Here's some pics. Like I said it's not pretty but it works... This morning keezer was 40f, chamber sat overnight at 76... Turned it on and it got down to 65 in less than 2 min.. Held within a degree for about an hour.

Still gotta build a door, right now it is just insulated panels snug fit.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471190804.172974.jpg

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View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471190898.269601.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471190919.130110.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471191011.704201.jpg

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1471212505.563872.jpg
 
kpr121 said:
Here's some pics. Like I said it's not pretty but it works... This morning keezer was 40f, chamber sat overnight at 76... Turned it on and it got down to 65 in less than 2 min.. Held within a degree for about an hour.

Still gotta build a door, right now it is just insulated panels snug fit.

View attachment 366215

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Click to expand...

Brilliant! how efficient is this setup? How low in temperature can it go? Is it responding quickly to changes in temperature settings?
 
I haven't given it a real test yet. My hypothesis is it will work well at maintaining temp when sealed up good (still have some work to do).

I imagine it will run quite a bit if I needed to cool 10 gallons by a large temperature delta (say 20 degrees)... But should be very efficient.. There won't be much heat/cold lost due to all the insulation. The fact that water is being transferred from keezer to ferm chamber should keep the entire system pretty consistent but limited by the water buckets temperature.

I've thought about putting another radiator/fan inside the keezer. That would react quicker I would think. And would also free up some space...
 
Looks good! Nice work. Right now i'm only using a 2 gallon bucket on the hump (still haven't made a bigger reservoir from HVAC ducting like I intended), but I agree the system does great at maintaining temps, but it takes a while to bring 10 gallons of wort down 10 degrees. Thus I usually spend a bit more time chilling with my cfc to get within 3-5 degrees of pitching temps. I've also found if I have to chill more than that adding a few blocks of ice to the ferm chamber really helps add some cooling power for the initial cool, after which the water pump is sufficient to keep things rolling at your set temp.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
Looks good! Nice work. Right now i'm only using a 2 gallon bucket on the hump (still haven't made a bigger reservoir from HVAC ducting like I intended), but I agree the system does great at maintaining temps, but it takes a while to bring 10 gallons of wort down 10 degrees. Thus I usually spend a bit more time chilling with my cfc to get within 3-5 degrees of pitching temps. I've also found if I have to chill more than that adding a few blocks of ice to the ferm chamber really helps add some cooling power for the initial cool, after which the water pump is sufficient to keep things rolling at your set temp.
Click to expand...

Well this isn’t going as planned so far. I’ve got 10 gallons of pumpkin ale in the chamber and the system is struggling to keep temps in the low 60s where I usually ferment (last night the beer was at high krausen and was reading almost 70 and the reservoir water was in the 60s).

Some of this is my fault. I put the wort in the chamber at around 69F and expected/hoped it to cool down to pitching temp overnight … after a whole night it only got down to around 66. Not wanted to wait any longer I put a few frozen water bottles in the chamber, two frozen water bottles in the reservoir, pitched the yeast and hoped for the best.

Since fermentation started it hasn’t gotten below 66 yet, the closest I got was when I added four frozen water bottles to the reservoir – after about an hour the temps were down at 66.1 but soon went back up.

A few thoughts on why this isn’t working so well. I would love to hear input/ideas.

1. Pump may be too small (I don’t think this is the culprit. If it were I would expect the reservoir temp to still be cold i.e. the water is not transferring the heat properly).
2. Not enough exchange from the keezer to the reservoir. I have a fan blowing at the corny keg but do not have a separate pump constantly recirculating water (water only recirculates when the ferm chamber is calling for cold). That might help. I already adjusted the recirculating pump so that the input pulled from the bottom of the keg and the output dumped into the top. Didn’t seem to help much.
3. Chamber is not insulated enough or is too big… Ambient temperature (~72F) is not much more than ferment temps since this is in my basement but this could be a possibility. Its 2 inches of polystyrene sandwiched with basically drywall on both sides. Inside dimensions are about 3x3x2 ft (18 cf). I also could seal up some of the very small gaps in the front panel/door but they are very very small.

Does anyone have any other ideas? I think the first/cheapest thing I can do is seal everything up better, and maybe add another skin of insulation to beef up the R-value a little bit.

My mind continues to race back to a thought I had previously… putting a second transmission cooler in the keezer and recirculating through that. This would basically give me close to 100% heat transfer, the keezer temperature controller would probably react quicker to call for the freezer to turn on, and it would take up less room in there. But if my problem is truly not enough insulation or too big of a chamber this wont really help me much.
 
Bummer man!

I have no trouble with just a 2 gallon bucket on the hump an aquarium pump, so my first guess would be sealing, second guess insulation, third guess is chamber size, although I bet my chambers are not much smaller than yours. I have two chambers and they can each fit 4 carboys if I pack it really tight, and the height is just bigger than a cornie keg.

How well did you seal everything during the build? In my build I used 2" of the Home-depot R-max insulation with the silver film on one side, I think the R value on that is 18. different types of insulation have different R-values, thickness isn't everything. I also sealed all the big gaps with great stuff, and caulked every wood seam. My doors are fitted with garage door sealing wrap so I have an extremely good seal. At one point in the build I climbed into the keezer so I could look out the ferm chambers to check for light leaks/sealing tightness, there were zero leaks at all.

I would double-check the specs for your insulation value, make sure everything is sealed really well (including your doors) and let me know.

Longshot but it could be your pump is too small to do much circulation, do you have a link to the pump used? I can maybe lookup via my amazon account what pump I use, but I know I went bigger is better in that regard. I remember testing this and I think I was getting ~ 1GPM flow though my cooling system.
 
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Looking at your photos again I see two things different with our setups. One is my chamber is actually divided in two smaller chambers, so the volume/transmission cooler is half what you have. So perhaps adding another cooler would help after you have checked the sealing and caulked the seams.

Also i have computer fans mounted to the face of the cooler so it can pull air through the cooler to chill, without that I bet the chilling capacity would be significantly reduced. I ran these by just powering from the same line that turns on the pump when chilling is needed.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
Looking at your photos again I see two things different with our setups. One is my chamber is actually divided in two smaller chambers, so the volume/transmission cooler is half what you have. So perhaps adding another cooler would help after you have checked the sealing and caulked the seams.

Also i have computer fans mounted to the face of the cooler so it can pull air through the cooler to chill, without that I bet the chilling capacity would be significantly reduced. I ran these by just powering from the same line that turns on the pump when chilling is needed.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions.
Click to expand...

Good point regarding the volume, I can definitely see that as being an issue.

I have two computer fans mounted to the cooler, set up the same as you (wonder where I got that idea :D), so circulation isn't the issue.

I definitely think the chamber needs sealed up better. If I could only find the time to get to it... hell I haven't even been able to brew in a couple months!
 
If you've gotten the water reservoir up to the 60's with ambient in the 70's you aren't getting much transfer there anymore. Your limiting factor is the air cooling of the coolant bucket. You could probably increase the effectiveness by adding another water to air heat exchanger in the freezer before the reservoir.

I'm not a big fan of these mutli stage, freezer to air to reservoir to air, coolers because of the efficiency loss. You could throw a window A/C to control the fermentation chamber or do a glycol build for about the same effort and cost.
 
jddevinn said:
If you've gotten the water reservoir up to the 60's with ambient in the 70's you aren't getting much transfer there anymore. Your limiting factor is the air cooling of the coolant bucket. You could probably increase the effectiveness by adding another water to air heat exchanger in the freezer before the reservoir.

I'm not a big fan of these mutli stage, freezer to air to reservoir to air, coolers because of the efficiency loss. You could throw a window A/C to control the fermentation chamber or do a glycol build for about the same effort and cost.
Click to expand...

I am kicking myself for throwing away a perfectly working (albeit ugly) window AC unit when we moved a couple years ago.

Do you think that just adding another heat exchanger (eliminating the reservoir and just having a closed loop system) would work well?

I probably wont need this cooling capacity until next spring. Basement stays around 50 through the winter.
 
I doubt going to a closed loop system and adding another heat exchanger in the keezer would work. I think you need those stored BTUs in your cooling bucket, if you close the system then you'll be more reliant on transfer from freezer air to cooling system water.

Again I would ensure that your chamber sealing is really good, and you have sufficient insulation. I've got R18 on my system. Also when I built mine I figured if I didn't get sufficient cooling with the water setup, i've just made the guts of a system which could run on gycol, I would just need to build the gylcol chiller. You might want to think about this if you continue to have issues with water cooling
 
I think if I continue to have issues with water cooling after getting the box all sealed up, I will probably scrap the whole idea and pick up a used AC unit for $25 on craigslist and mount that to the side of this box.

While I don't agree that that is the more 'efficient' solution, it definitely is easier and more fool proof.
 
kpr121 said:
I think if I continue to have issues with water cooling after getting the box all sealed up, I will probably scrap the whole idea and pick up a used AC unit for $25 on craigslist and mount that to the side of this box.

While I don't agree that that is the more 'efficient' solution, it definitely is easier and more fool proof.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly. Things worked well for me out of the gates, if they hadn't I would have done the same and figured out how to use my chamber with a different cooling method.
 

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