Jungle Cider

[oljimmy]

If I understand it, 'Primary' fermentation refers to the yeast eating the raw, initial sugar until they've had enough. 'Secondary' is more like aging, or allowing other chemical processes to soften and otherwise change the character of the cider (sometimes via a special kind of fermentation where bacteria convert harsher malic acid into softer lactic acid).

So, yes, adding more juice at this stage just means extending the primary fermentation. However, if you add that juice after finding a way to kill or neutralize the yeast (cold crashing, pasteurization or a dose of sorbate and sulfite) then no further primary fermentation will occur and you can transition to secondary.

My ciders taste super gross right out of 2 weeks in primary... people say it a lot but it's true, patience is the major virtue of the cidermaker. Odds are very good that in 2 months you'll have a very palatable drink, providing you keep it sealed away in moderate temperatures.

 

[Rhu]

Two weeks old today...

still gently fizzing, not clearing or throwing any yeast yet...

Getting impatient so have some S-04 and Belle Saison booked on the next flight out of the UK. So I can play with them instead of the bottles I've already got bubbling away.

Can't decide if I want to go straight cider or throw some guava in there...anybody got any thoughts? Ever heard of a Guava cider?

 

[Rhu]

@oljimmy
Hey man,

Hey Rhu,

I, too, have been on a quest to make "proper" English style cider outside of England and I just wanted to warn you against expecting too much from your setup.

Brain just threw this at me last night...what have been your closest successes..I mean I'm very limited with juice, but in terms of yeasts etc. what has been good for you? Are you somewhere ridiculously hot?

 

[Rhu]

1 onth old today,

For those of you still interested I had to change one of the airlocks last week..long story. Took the opportunity to sample, taste, test gravity.

Gravity was at 0.998, (ABV about 9.3) tasted much less acidic but still very 'green', I guess every one calls it..super tart. I figured it actually tastes like there is a bunch of CO2 still dissolved in it..lots of carbonic acid..like the taste of warm soda water.

CAn't remember the last time I saw an airlock bubble although there are super small 'pinprick' bubbles forming in both bottles. the pectinase bottle seems slightly clearer than the other, but neither are clearing appreciably, no yeast cake etc.

Am loath to rack again to a tertiary...I'm not sure how much CO2 is coming off and I don't have the same juice to top up the head space. It seems pretty happy where it is anyway.

Have other projects to keep me occupied now anyway. Just need to play the waiting game I guess.

cheers

R

 

[Rhu]

5 weeks old today...

no real sign of clearing, no yeast cake, occasional slow moving, slightly larger bubbles rise from the depths and bumble their way to the surface..Could MLF start this early in these warmer temps, or is it just the yeasts chewing their way through the very tail end of primary sugars? Can I have MLF if I sulphited the juice before pitching?

Thinking to prime/bottle in another two weeks, then leave it two weeks further before cracking a couple in the company of friends...

EDIT: An old cooler washed up on the beach so I'm thinking to fill it with ice and cold crash for as long as possible before priming/bottling (probably only manage about 18hrs, depending on how many towels I can pile on top to stop the ice melting)...No other reason than to bring some of the yeasts out of suspension, I'm not going to be storaging cold so they'll get active again. Hopefully it'll clear a bit though.

 

[Randzor]

Id try the cooler. Sounds like its going well.

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[Rhu]

It's not going bad...bottle 1 refusing to clear however...does anybody know if pectinase will clear a pectin haze if the original juice has been heat pasteurised?

 

[Rhu]

Paranoia is setting in as I sit and watch bottle #1 bubble away....also has some powdery white 'stuff' on the inner, upper surface of the carboy..I swear it wasn't there before.....

Rationally, I know that it's some yeast that was in suspension that was deposited when drawing a sample and has propagated across the surface..Irrationally I fear it's a virulent infection that's going to ruin everything. The airlock smells of nothing except medical alcohol, so at least it hasn't turned to vinegar...yet...

The above question still stands by the way, anybody out there have any idea?

 

[oregonbrew541]

To be honest if it were me i wouldn't worry about a haze. Though I would bottle soon, carb, prime, and if possible pasteurize. I think your going to be fine.. Relax and enjoy your view

 

[Rhu]

Opened them today to take an sg as am planning on bottling next week.

sg. of both bottles 0.996, topped them both up with little bit of tree top juice as it's all I've got on hand.

Taste was...disappointing really. A lot of the sourness has disappeared, now it's just ...very slightly cidery with a bit of alcohol heat.

Now I know this is going to come as a massive surprise but it tastes like...wait for it....wine....that'll be the champagne yeast I'm guessing.

As far as haze goes, it's actually relatively clear when it's not in a massive carboy, so no worries on that front...I'm debating the carbonation, but will probably stick with original plan, carbonate 5 gallons and leave 5 gallons still.

Now, here's the biggy...Anybody have any idea...and without tasting it and knowing the exact apple blend that went into it I realise it's a complete shot in the dark for anybody that chooses to answer this...is the flavour likely to develop more since the acidity has all but disappeared anyway, or is it more likely to continue tasting like a sugar wine?

Assuming sg is still at 0.996 then it's Cold crash, Prime and bottle in a week and then I'm leaving it alone for another 2 weeks before tasting. If necessary storage can continue. Pasteurising isn't going to happen with this batch, unfortunately.

I thought I'd shoot for about 1.8 for the carb unless somebody can give me good reason not to...such as "if it tastes like a wine carb it like a wine...i.e. somewhere about 3.0..." I do think I'm going to be a litlle worried taking cabonation over 2.5 in these temps in crown cap bottles.

anyway, enough rambling..cheers all.

EDIT: Just been reading about de-gassing...now when I added juice to these a big foam started and then cleared out, leaving it smelling slightly better although I didn't taste again...is de-gassing something that people do with cider? It seems like a very good way to get it oxidised, is oxidation the massive bogeyman that everyone says it is? Will the cider oxidise if I de-gas without splashing too much, am I asking too many questions?

 

[Rhu]

Fermenting like mad, even as far as big lumps of yeast flying around.

I only added between 150-250ml of juice to top up the head space, not enough to even move the gravity 1 point (I checked)...

From the look of it this is going to be down around 0.990 and I don't think I'll be bottling on Thurs/Fri..

I have a feeling this is going to require significant ageing..

 

[aiptasia]

It's not going bad...bottle 1 refusing to clear however...does anybody know if pectinase will clear a pectin haze if the original juice has been heat pasteurised?

It should, although the haze is purely aesthetic. Although, pectin is a great baby laxative.

Opened them today to take an sg as am planning on bottling next week.

Now, here's the biggy...Anybody have any idea...and without tasting it and knowing the exact apple blend that went into it I realise it's a complete shot in the dark for anybody that chooses to answer this...is the flavour likely to develop more since the acidity has all but disappeared anyway, or is it more likely to continue tasting like a sugar wine?

Assuming sg is still at 0.996 then it's Cold crash, Prime and bottle in a week and then I'm leaving it alone for another 2 weeks before tasting. If necessary storage can continue. Pasteurising isn't going to happen with this batch, unfortunately.

EDIT: Just been reading about de-gassing...now when I added juice to these a big foam started and then cleared out, leaving it smelling slightly better although I didn't taste again...is de-gassing something that people do with cider? It seems like a very good way to get it oxidised, is oxidation the massive bogeyman that everyone says it is? Will the cider oxidise if I de-gas without splashing too much, am I asking too many questions?

Letting the cider age will probably help the flavor in the long run. You might consider racking it to a clean container with campden tablets (K Meta) and potassium sorbate to protect it from further fermentation/infection and oxidation and let it bulk age in the coolest, darkest environment you can find for it for a while. You can also back sweeten it with pasteurized juice to improve the flavor after treating it with the metabisulfate for 36 hours or so.

De-gassing is very common and especially important during the early fermentation to no only remove toxic levels of CO2 but also introduce oxygen. During the active fermentation phase, the yeasts require oxygen for cellular respiration so you will see a lot of people de-gas their cider musts for the first few days. Proper staggered small additions of yeast nutrient and yeast energizer during fermentation also reduce yeast stress and improve the overall flavor. You'll also want to make sure it's sufficiently de-gassed prior to bottling unless you want a sparking cider. If you do, you may need to re-pitch a little yeast and sugar to bottle condition it. Mr. Malty has a great priming calculator that takes into account residual CO2 levels already present in solution based on volume and temperature. You might consider referring to this if you're making a sparkling cider and do not wish to de-gas.

 

[Rhu]

Thanks Aiptasia..

I didn't add staggered doses of nutrients..I'm not living in the most sanitary of environments and I wanted to open the carboys as little as possible. They got their 1 tsp/gallon at the start and that was it!

It doesn't taste 'off', it just doesn't taste of very much..I guess the juice was fairly bland to begin with and that is making it's presence felt (or lack of) at the moment.

I guess I'm just surprised at how quickly fermentation has taken off after adding so little extra sugar..we'll see if it keeps going, I'm not particularly worried by it going super dry at this point, in these temps. Apfelwein is probably going to last longer in the bottle than a lower alcohol cider (although that will be coming next, after the last attempt ended up with a higher og than this one...)

If it settles down I'll bottle in a week, if it doesn't I'll leave until it does. When I do bottle I'll probably follow the guidelines for degassing wine for both bottles (5 mins every couple of hours for a day or so) before cold crashing for 18 hours then racking onto priming sugar (which should help degas some more) and then bottling. Having read more I'm not overly concerned about degassing/oxidation..at this point I'm expecting something over 10% which I think should protect against oxidation.

cheers

EDIT: I also only have Na Meta, no K Meta or sorbate and am unlikely to have access to any for another couple of months..

 

[oregonbrew541]

I'm sorry but you can age cider brewed with champagne but it's always gonna taste like wine thats my opinion unless you can wait six months to a year... if you don't want that taste brew with an ale yeast and don't let it ferment out to dryness so much. My brew applekush i use Nottingham and let it sit it sit in primary one week or until 1.010 then transfer and settle for four days or until 1.0040 then i bottle carb prime and enjoy. The finished product is like crispin or like a damn jolly rancher it's so delicious. I personally do not use anything but a yeast with low attenuation for cider or it just eats all the apple flavor away and your left with a cheap white wine like drink. Although I bet after a glass or two you won't give a **** what it taste like. Good luck rhu


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[Rhu]

lol...

yeah, now I figure the champagne ones are always going to taste like wine...that's fine at this point, I've come to terms with the fact that they're not cider...I'm still going to continue and carb one, leave the other and see how they go..

I've got others on the go that I over-sugared, but used an ale yeast so we'll see how that turns out.

Then the next experiment is no sugar, or very small quantities for about an 1.060 starting point and ale yeast..see how that turns out..

Fun, this messing about with cider thing - isn't it...

 

[oregonbrew541]

lol...

yeah, now I figure the champagne ones are always going to taste like wine...that's fine at this point, I've come to terms with the fact that they're not cider...I'm still going to continue and carb one, leave the other and see how they go..

I've got others on the go that I over-sugared, but used an ale yeast so we'll see how that turns out.

Then the next experiment is no sugar, or very small quantities for about an 1.060 starting point and ale yeast..see how that turns out..

Fun, this messing about with cider thing - isn't it...

Dude you don't even know. I'm addicted to brewing. Every night is a brew dream then i wake check my brew maybe make a new one it's all i can do. Haha i can't seem to brew beer though I've become accustomed to cider and my partner and i enjoy it way more. Thanks for keeping me posted man i always enjoy hearing about you batches.


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[Rhu]

I'm not quite there yet...but the first thing I do in the morning is check on the bubbling/not bubbling status..last thing at night as well...

Have decided to de gas them..which I've worked out is quite simple...as they are in better bottle type carboys I just punch them a couple of times whenever I go into the room.

It doesn't do wonders for the clarity, but I figure they're going to have a couple of days sitting in coolers to drop any yeast that's floating about...and they're never going to be glass like anyway.

Ferment seems to be slowing down as well so I may be able to bottle in the next few days, otherwise it'll be two weeks until I next have the time. Not a bad thing...it's just going to try my patience.

 

[ong]

Have you thought about using a small amount of black tea to add tannins? Next time you pull a sample, you could try adding a small amount of very strong brewed black tea drop by drop (to the sample), to see if it improves the taste. Malic acid can also help punch up the apple flavor, if you have a source for that.


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[Rhu]

Yes, considered it..I'd just done the tea experiment with the other batch of jungle cider when I tasted this one so it was very much in my mind..

I decided I'm just going to continue with this one as is and then use it as a base line for any future batches.

 

[Rhu]

Cold crashing in beach cooler with 24kg (48lbs) of ice (or it was when it started the 3hr trip down the road from hell). Wrapped in Tin foil and 10 Mexican blankets.

Sg steady at 0.996, flavour came back after a week of punching the carboys. Still some sourness/acidity/tartness. #1 seems much clearer than #2 when in a glass.

Bottle caps arrived yesterday. Bottling on Friday assuming the ice lasts that long.

Have two names to be unveiled later as well as one for the Jungle Cidery.

chheers

 

[neilpcraven]

Just read through this thread and I'm impressed at your dedication!

As for bottling, wine flavour etc, be aware that most of the apple flavour will go if you do a complete fermentation to dry. You need to add something sweet or apple-y after the fermentation is complete. For the still one, it's easy - just stop the yeast with whatever you have handy (potassium sorbate maybe) then add some some apple juice (Tree top will be fine, since you don't need to worry about preservatives).

For the sparkling one, your choice is back-sweetening with artificial sweetener and bottle priming, or you could try to pasteurise it like described here after priming with some organic juice (I've never tried it, but I'm planning on doing so with the gallon I have on the go when it's ready to bottle in a couple of weeks): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

 

[Rhu]

thankyou..doesn't feel much like dedication..just quite fun...

To be honest a lot of the cider flavour has come back. The cider that I drink back home never tastes particularly of apples per se. I find cider (Hard cider) has a flavour all of it's own usually.

When I tasted it a week ago, it didn't really taste of anything other than a 'wine tang'. After punching it a couple of times a day to knock the gas out - some of the flavour seems to have come back.

I have a coworker from Bath, the West country, Cider homeland..and after a gulp from the sg flask last night she claimed to have drunk worse pints back home. Now, I'm assuming that's just plain not true, but still, it means that a 'proper' cider drinker isn't completely turned off by it.

Mind, a pint of nail polish remover probably counts as drinkable in some of the pubs in the West country.

Pasteurising isn't going to be an option for this batch, I'm working on a solution for the next one. Bottle carbing for one carboy and just plain leaving alone for the other will be fine here. If the flavour keeps developing and changing the way it has been from one week to the next who knows what it will be like in 2 weeks when I crack one open, but I have a hunch/blind faith that after a month or two in the bottle it should be ok.

 

[neilpcraven]

Fair enough! Agree about the west country cider - some of that scrumpy is fit only for stripping paint.
Well it sounds like you've got everything in hand. It's drinkable and it's got alcohol in it, and that's what really counts when stranded in a tropical beach paradise, right?!

 

[oregonbrew541]

Snap a pic or two tomoro while bottling and after if possible.. good luck!!

 

[blueseamonkey]

Glad to hear of another British cider maker in the tropics... I think I read you are a Northerner too? I'm from Sheffield but living now in the Philippines. I'm making cider for myself and selling some as a sideline to the neighbours.

To be honest I haven't gone out for the effort of pressing my own apples or trying to find organic juice - apples here are very expensive and nothing like cider apples anyway. I use a cheapish brand of juice from concentrate, add some brown sugar, a mug of strong tea (in 20L juice,) half a teaspoon each of nutmeg and cinnamon. I have used both cider yeasts (Youngs) and ale yeasts with good success, I haven't tried champagne yeast.

I have found that juice in 1litre tetrapak containers for some reason always makes a better cider than the stuff from plastic bottles. The spices and tea add (or replace) some of the flavours that you get in cider apples but are missing in commercial juices.

With beer brewing temperature control is a big problem here, but I've never even bothered with my cider and it doesn't seem to matter. Ambient temps here are around 28 in the shade, sometimes 30+. I've never noticed any off flavours that I could attribute to high temps.

I ferment right down to about 0.996 - it doesn't taste that great right after finishing but 2 weeks later it is fantastic stuff. I have backsweetened with both apple juice and sugar but personally prefer it dry once it has aged. My neighbours are less fussy and are actually buying it from me while it is still fermenting, but then they are used to drinking tuba (a local coconut wine served straight from the fermenter while still bubbling like crazy.)

Hope your batches turn out well and you can enjoy some good cider. If its expensive to get the juice you bought, you might not go too far wrong with some cheaper stuff next time round.

 

[MindenMan]

I can say from experience, time will put the apple flavor back into your cider. At first I didn't see how that this sharp, fizzy, maybe apple cider, was going to return. It did. I really don't know the where the sweet spot is, time wise, and I am sure every batch is different. I have made more than a few batches of applejack, and I still couldn't believe the older it got, the better/smoother it tasted. I just realized I have a bottle stashed somewhere, and it may need "checking". Brewing beer and making cider have really made me appreciate what it takes to consistently make a great beverage of either type.

 

[Rhu]

OK, thanks all...

Temp in Jungle fridge stayed at a steady 6C (42F) until this morning and it's been climbing steadily since..upto 12C (53F) as we start to bottle.

Taking 28C (82F) as my cider temp to account for CO2 absorption before it went into the Fridge.

Photos coming.

I'm more Northern than you..but not by much. Halifax, West Yorkshire, God's own county...

 

[Rhu]

You shouldn't have asked for photos..this might take two posts....

Bottling went ok..suffered some minor hitches, the biggest being the shape of the bottle necks that I was trying to cap onto. Turns out my "wing' capper will only cap onto a specific shape of bottle neck. Obviously the bottles I had were all different neck shapes..Cue frantic scrabbling around to find more of the 'right' bottles and the eventual decision to bottle the still cider in the bottles that don't cap 'properly' and the sparkling in the ones that do.

The ones that don't cap properly are still water tight (who knows if they are air tight, but water tight is a start) they don't curl all the way around the underside of the flange on the bottle neck, instead they flare out slightly, I'll throw some photos of that up tomorrow, along with the picture of the capper and the two different neck styles, maybe in another thread? Fingers crossed it's not all going to turn into sewage over the next two weeks.

Anyway, other than that all is peachy got four full cases + two 40oz's and four 12oz's on the side. Nice.

Pictures:
#1..Bottling Washing on the beach
#2..The cider Igloo in the corner of the beach hut.
#3..Cider Igloo see the daylight
#4..Compañero moving from 2ndary to Priming bottle
#5..Cider Minions! it's good being the boss sometimes..and hey, if they want to drink the cider they should help to bottle it right?

More to follow..

 

[Rhu]

More pictures then..the finished article..

#1..The final count..sitting out in the Evening sunshine
#2.."Sharkfin" sparkling cider, 9.74% and"Chango León" (Lion Monkey in Mexican Slang), also 9.74%

The first bottling from the "stunted octopus" cidery..

I'll let you know how they taste in two weeks although the final sg samples seem promising. Fingers crossed that the carbonated ones don't explode and the still ones don't turn into vinegar..

and a massive thanks to everyone that helped me get this far.

 

[Rhu]

Actually just realised you can see the problem with the capping in the last photo above. The cap on the bottle on the right isn't crimped all of the way around the neck.

You can see the difference in neck styles as well, the bottle on the left has a hard right angle step for the capper to seat against, whilst the bottle on the left has a rounded ridge that the capper can't seat against. Very frustrating.

 

[oregonbrew541]

Actually just realised you can see the problem with the capping in the last photo above. The cap on the bottle on the right isn't crimped all of the way around the neck.

You can see the difference in neck styles as well, the bottle on the left has a hard right angle step for the capper to seat against, whilst the bottle on the left has a rounded ridge that the capper can't seat against. Very frustrating.

its funny you point out the cap thing because my bottles that used crown caps did the same thing (didn't wrap all the way around) i thought it was normal.. I've never ad any problems and I've stored them for long periods but I'm very anal about sanitation so if you were sanitary i'd say the ones with the odd caps should be perfectly fine!! and props man you did an excellent job and thanks for the pics!!!

 

[Rhu]

Thanks man, I've been pretty anal with sanitation as well, it's impossible to get anything completely clean here, the place is full of damp and sand. I did the best I could though..the bottles were sitting in soapy water for a week to get the labels off, then rinsed in clean fresh water, then soaked in a bleach solution for 48 hours (I know people don't like bleach, but bear with me), then allowed to air dry in the sun before being filled with a colloidal silver sanitiser (we use it for washing veg etc. so have it lying around), left for 10mins then rinsed with boiled, still very hot water, shaken dry and then filled...The caps soaked in the silver solution for about two hours by the time we got around to using them.

Did you carbonate with the dodgy tops?

 

[BigAndo]

People can not like bleach all they want, that's basically what pubs use as line cleaner and what they use to strip the glasses. Works just fine.


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[oregonbrew541]

Bleach is fine as long as u rinse well! Funny caps held carbonation for me but **** i drank them within a week so i can't say how long it'll hold carb especially since its warmer there... But I think u did the right thing leaving those still. Personally i like having still cider occasionally especially for higher abv ciders like yours... You could just have carbed like two or three for tester... Maybe next time! I'm brewing two batches today myself one applekush and a graff. I couldn't sleep, all i could do was think about brewing... Hah


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[Rhu]

I'm a fan of still ciders, essentially I only carbed one of these bottles for s**ts and giggles and it was my first go, so I wanted to try everything...all at once..

Started off two more 5G batches as soon as these were bottled..couldn't wait so I understand your not being able to sleep.

1 batch S04 and one Saison. figured I would wait and see what the other gallons I've got going taste like when I move to bottling and then make 5G each of which two taste the nicer, by adding the appropriate articles at secondary. Very simple, just the juice (tree top), the raw cane sugar I had lying around and then some nutrient, pectolase in case I want to put fruit in in secondary and the yeast. OG 1.053 should give me around 7% ish for each bottle. I was wanting to do lower ABV so hopefully they'l mature a bit faster.

I was a little worried about the yeast, it's been sitting open (but well sealed with tape) in these temps for about a month now. Pitched into a cup of warm apple juice to see if anything would happen. Was trying to climb out after about 10minutes so into the juice it went and this morning it's all bubbling like crazy. The S 04 is sparkling like champagne, the bubbles are jumping 2-3" from the surface of the juice with no krausen/yeast head in sight...

Good thing about living on the base is that I've got about 40 5G better bottles lying around at any one time because it's what we buy our water in.

Good luck with the brews, I would like to try a graff, maybe when I'm somewhere with a bit easier access to supplies.

 

[oregonbrew541]

Nice i like s04 and my lhbs guy knows me as the cider guy and he's been trying to get me to try saison in cider for awhile now but just havnt, I can't wait to hear how that turns out! So of course keep is posted and good luck!

 

[Rhu]

When I tasted the first primary I generally preferred the S04 batches, they hadn't gone quite so low. The Saison's had got to .998 I think and left the ciders feeling a little thin.

After I added the tea however the Saison tasted really good, better than the S04 with tea. I'm excited by both the Saison with tea and the Saison with Guava, I think it may need the tannin to bring out something in the yeast.

Early days yet though...

 

[Rhu]

Just over a week in the bottles and something strange appears to be happening to the clear/carbonated cider (sharkfin)....

I've tried to take pictures but it's not an obvious enough phenomenon to show up unfortunately. The cider appears to be...drum roll please...clearing. In the bottles. I'd pretty much given up any hope of this happening. There appears to be a clear layer in about the top half inch of the bottles with wispy 'smoke-like' cloud underneath..I really never expected it to clear anymore..

Hopefully it'll keep going over the next few days/weeks..I was planning on tasting this weekend, but I'm tempted to leave it another week or two, just to see what happens.

cheers

 

[ong]

It might clear even more after it's carbed up and you chill the bottles for a week or more.


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[Rhu]

Possible, although I'm unlikely to be able to chill the bottles for much longer than a day or so..