Judge my first NEIPA recipe

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Hi folks,

I'm planning to brew a NEIPA for the first time. I've been reading a lot about it, but there's always some different information out there. I'd like you to judge and suggest some tweaks to my recipe:

Batch volume: 50L
Fermentables: 75% Pilsner Premium, 12,5% Flaked Oats, 12,5% Flaked Wheat
OG: 1065
FG: 1016
IBU: 30
Yeast: 3 pkgs Wyeast 1318
Boil time: 60min.

Hops:

Boil-off (0min): Simcoe @ 2g/l
Hopstand @ 76°C for 45min:
Amarillo, Simcoe and Mosaic 2,2g/l each.
Dry Hop @ Day 2: Amarillo, Simcoe and Mosaic 1,3g/l each.
Dry Hop @ Day 6: Amarillo, Simcoe and Mosaic 1,3g/l each.

Mash profile: 65°C for 60min.
Fermentation profile: 20°C for 14 days.

Some things I'm unsure:

- The amount of flaked oats and flaked wheat compared to Pilsner Malt. Do you think it's high?
- Can I reduce the boil time? I've read the xBmt about it and there was no difference in DMS in a mostly Pilsner Malt boiled for 30min vs 90min, but I also read that a short boil + extended hopstand could lead to more DMS formation.
- Hop amount: 8,6g/l total in hopstand (might change after I receive the hops and calculate exact AA%) 7,8g/l total in dry hop.
- The hopstand time
- The dry hopping schedule

Don't hold on me!

Thanks

 

[skibb]

Doesn't look too bad!

My recommendations: Drop the 0 minute simcoe addition - you will get plenty of bitterness form your late addition hops and DH.

I tend to do a 2/1 DH to Whirlpool ratio - Most breweries I know doing NEIPA tend to throw 2 to 3 times the amount of hops for DH than they put in hotside.

I have never gotten DMS out of Pilsner due to long hop stands and I'm not sure reducing boil time will help protect against DMS.

DH schedule looks good - DH during ferm will promote haze, but with such a large WP addition you should have no problem getting the desired haze and mouthfeel without it. I would say give it a shot for your first NEIPA to get your bearings.

 

[Jag75]

I think my grain bill has 6.3% of each flaked wheat , flaked oats and white wheat.

 

[Tyler B]

I've never brewed a NEIPA but I'm interested in this so I've done a little research. Here are my thoughts.

Why pilsner malt? Not suggesting there is anything wrong with it, but I would have thought pale malt or a blend of the two for base malt. Genuinely curious because I probably just haven't done enough research on this.

Three packs of yeast seems like a lot to me, but I use dry yeast so again, I don't really know. A bit of research suggests that is an excellent yeast choice.

I think you'll be fine with the 75% base malt / 12.5% oats / 12.5% wheat.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

For what it's worth I brew a NEIPA using 91.3% Pale 2 Row Malt and 8.7% Torrified wheat, and use WLP-002 or US-04 to ferment it.

 

[Brian66]

For what it's worth I brew a NEIPA using 91.3% Pale 2 Row Malt and 8.7% Torrified wheat, and use WLP-002 or US-04 to ferment it.

View attachment 688078

How's the aroma and flavor when you use US-04?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeast: 3 pkgs Wyeast 1318

$21-27 in yeast alone... and it only gives you half the cells you'd need, at best (est. 3x 100 billion = 300 billion).
For 50 liters of 1.065 you'd need around 587 billion cells. 450 billion minimum.
Even in ideal situations, where your yeast packs were freshly packed last week, never mishandled or shipped in hot/freezing weather, chances are you'd come up short.
Since you don't know their actual viability and cell count, more reason why you should make yeast starters.

You really should make a starter (or starters) ahead of time. You can use either 1 or 2 packs, depending on your starter equipment and how much time you have before brewing.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator

 

[IslandLizard]

Make sure to familiarize yourself with this thread, it contains good info and various approaches:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/
And just as important, NEIPAs need to be shielded from oxygen exposure during most of their cold side process, all the way down to packaging and storage.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

How's the aroma and flavor when you use US-04?

Honestly, there's no noticeable difference between the US-04 and the WLP-002, when hopping at a rate of 20 ounces per 10 gallons.

 

[Brian66]

Honestly, there's no noticeable difference between the US-04 and the WLP-002, when hopping at a rate of 20 ounces per 10 gallons.

Do you find this turns out as good as if you used London III or Burlington Ale yeast?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Do you find this turns out as good as if you used London III or Burlington Ale yeast?

I'd have to give those two a try at some point in order to find out.

 

[Brian66]

I'd have to give those two a try at some point in order to find out.

I have one fermenting now with London III. I think I'll try the US-04 next time

 

[IslandLizard]

I have one fermenting now with London III. I think I'll try the US-04 next time

I really like 1318 for NEIPAs, never had good reason to even try another one. I'm still using the same yeast from my first pack I bought about 3 years ago. Mostly from fresh starters, sometimes harvested and reused. Either way it's very dependable and neutral, arguably even enhancing that style.

Before I discovered NEIPAs, a friend and I brewed a 10 gallon Galaxy/Eureka Double IPA batch in which we pitched a large and healthy WY1272 slurry from 2 rounds of starters. That was an awesome beer! We really liked the way that beer came out.

I've used 1272 in regular IPAs before, as it seemed to enhance the citrus aspect in a nice way.

Although I never tried WLP002/WY1968, I have an inkling they're unsuitable for NEIPAs, floccing out too hard, too fast.

 

[wepeeler]

I've used pilsner malt in my neipas before, but I much prefer standard 2 row. You need a good malt backbone for all the hops in a neipa, and I feel as though pilsner is too thin and not sweet enough to balance it all out. Plus it's more fermentable and you want some residual sweetness in a neipa.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Hey folks,

Thanks for the comments. I've made some adjustments to the recipe and tomorrow is brew day.

For the malts, although Pilsner wasn't my first choice, that's what a lot of recipes were using in the research I did. I ended up making a starter instead of using 3 yeast packages. Much better choice.

No hop additions at boil-off, only at hop stand.

I adjusted the dry hop days (@ day 3 and @ day 7 now) and quantity (Amarillo and Mosaic at 1,9g/l each dry hop addition, Simcoe at 2,9g/l). Making it at 6,6g/l total at hopstand and 13,4g/l total in DH.

If it's good, I'll try the same recipe with a Pale/2-row malt next time.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Make sure to familiarize yourself with this thread, it contains good info and various approaches:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/northeast-style-ipa.568046/
And just as important, NEIPAs need to be shielded from oxygen exposure during most of their cold side process, all the way down to packaging and storage.

Yes, that's something I'm concerned. For the DH additions, I'll add some CO2 in the keg before opening it. Anything else I should do?

 

[wepeeler]

Mash higher than 149! I would go to 154-156 for pilsner malt!

 

[IslandLizard]

Mash higher than 149! I would go to 154-156 for pilsner malt!

That! ^
And if you use Pilsner malt, you really need to boil it 90' or you may end up with a DMS bomb.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yes, that's something I'm concerned. For the DH additions, I'll add some CO2 in the keg before opening it. Anything else I should do?

Dry Hops are added to the fermenter. Are you fermenting in a keg?
If so, there's no need to add CO2, as there is plenty of CO2 being generated by the fermentation process.

 

[DVCNick]

I've only done one batch of NEIPA in my life, so take this fwiw, but I did use 1318 and it came out good other than just finishing a few points high around 1.022 I think. So it was about 7% and a little sweet, should have been drier and 8.5, but was still plenty drinkable with a great flavor.
That said, next time I'm going to do everything I can to get it down further: Mash lower, oxygenate the crap out of it, and hit it with a massive starter.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Dry Hops are added to the fermenter. Are you fermenting in a keg?
If so, there's no need to add CO2, as there is plenty of CO2 being generated by the fermentation process.

My bad, I've meant fermenter . I just wanted to ensure no oxygen exposure during DH addition, specially in the active fermentation stage.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

That! ^
And if you use Pilsner malt, you really need to boil it 90' or you may end up with a DMS bomb.

That was one of my original questions. If it wasn't for the Pilsner malt, I'd use a 30min boil, but since it's Pilsner, I'm trying a 60min, even though evidence suggests there's no perceptible difference in a mostly-Pilsner brew (Boil Length: 30 Minutes Vs. 90 Minutes In A Pale Lager | exBEERiment Results!) and lab results shows no difference in DMS levels from a 90min vs 30min boil mostly-Pilsner brew (Update: Lab Data on Pils Malt Boil Length exBEERiment). I was also surprised by this, hence my initial question.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Mash higher than 149! I would go to 154-156 for pilsner malt!

Thanks. What's the reasoning for this? I lowered the mash temp to achieve a lower FG (while still having high fermentability).

 

[wepeeler]

Thanks. What's the reasoning for this? I lowered the mash temp to achieve a lower FG (while still having high fermentability).

Pilsner malt is the most fermentable malt. Higher mash temps result in a less fermentable wort. You want some residual sweetness left over and since Pilsner malt is highly fermentable, you'll end up with a drier, less sweet final product. Neipas are known for their residual sweetness which balances nicely when using so many hops. Plenty of people use Pilsner malt in neipas to keep the color light, but I find it ferments too low for my liking. YMMV.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Pilsner malt is the most fermentable malt. Higher mash temps result in a less fermentable wort. You want some residual sweetness left over and since Pilsner malt is highly fermentable, you'll end up with a drier, less sweet final product. Neipas are known for their residual sweetness which balances nicely when using so many hops. Plenty of people use Pilsner malt in neipas to keep the color light, but I find it ferments too low for my liking. YMMV.

Thank you! I'll make this change. As of now, FG is 1016, with a 67ºC mash temp, Brewfather expects a FG os 1017. NEIPA style says it should be up to 1015. I'm not super concerned about it being slightly off-style, specially if it ends up being less drier. Should I try to make it within FG style?

 

[wepeeler]

Thank you! I'll make this change. As of now, FG is 1016, with a 67ºC mash temp, Brewfather expects a FG os 1017. NEIPA style says it should be up to 1015. I'm not super concerned about it being slightly off-style, specially if it ends up being less drier. Should I try to make it within FG style?

Personally, I like my neipas to fall anywhere between 1.015-1.020. But that all depends on my grain bill and amount of hops. I try to get closer to 1.020 when I'm going hoppier. I would say try your recipe and adjust accordingly the next time. If it's too dry, mash higher. I just know from personal experience that the only time I used Pilsner malt for my neipa it fermented down to 1.012. It was def too dry for my personal taste.

 

[couchsending]

Pilsner malt is the most fermentable malt. Higher mash temps result in a less fermentable wort. You want some residual sweetness left over and since Pilsner malt is highly fermentable, you'll end up with a drier, less sweet final product. Neipas are known for their residual sweetness which balances nicely when using so many hops. Plenty of people use Pilsner malt in neipas to keep the color light, but I find it ferments too low for my liking. YMMV.

Where have you read that Pilsner malt is the most fermentable malt? I’ve honestly never read that and it’s sort of a blanket statement. “Pilsner” malt is very different depending on where it’s grown.

I would think that standard American 2 row, and American Pilsner malt would be pretty similar as far as fermentability goes due to them having pretty similar enzyme profiles just slightly different lovibond.

If using a large percentage of flaked adjuncts, pretty sure 2 Row is your best bet as it has generally higher FAN.

American 2 Row can also have higher protein levels which is what you’re looking for in hazy beer.

Generally the only places you see the good breweries use Pils (and it’s usually NA Pils malt) in IPA is when they want the least amount of malt character. It’s pretty popular with a lot of the new breweries on the West Coast. I know Green Cheek and Highland Park in SoCal use a lot of Canadian Pils cause it just gets out of the way completely and puts focus solely on hops. It seems like they’re using it more in the new style WCIPA and more modern dry hopped Pilsners.

I‘d use NA pils in Double IPAs as well. Alcohol provides enough sweetness on its own you don’t need the extra sweetness from a more “flavorful” malt. I prefer my 8% beers to drink more like 6% beers though. Others might not.

 

[IslandLizard]

I just wanted to ensure no oxygen exposure during DH addition, specially in the active fermentation stage.

During active fermentation unintended O2 exposure is generally minimal or nill as a ton of CO2 is being generated and pushed out through the airlock. Some brewers completely purge their kegs with it, to be filled when the beer is ready. It's when fermentation has come to an end, air (O2) ingress becomes an issue, that can lead to oxidation. That's when you need to pay attention to minimize or better, circumvent it.

Dry hopping at the height of fermentation is counterproductive as much of the hop aroma is being driven off by the CO2 produced. Dry hopping toward the end of fermentation, with a few points left to go, can be beneficial and may reduce O2 exposure.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Brew day: so far, so good. Reached target pre-boil gravity. Doing a 60min boil now. I brew in a place where I rent a brewslot with the equipments. I used to do it here and it was never a problem to book bottling time, bit they have reduced quite a lot the number of slots due to Covid-19, and the only available slot for bottling is now on August 30th. So, which adjustments should I make? I'm thinking to keep first DH addition on the 3rd fermentation day (this Wednesday) for biotransformation, but it's better to postpone the second DH addition, right? How would you change it?

 

[IslandLizard]

the only available slot for bottling is now on August 30th

After brew day, are you taking the fermenter home with you to ferment it? Or does it sit in their facility for 30 days?
If you take it home, why not bottle or keg at home?

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

It stays in the facility in temperature controlled environment. That's the main reason (besides being able to make lather batches) that I don't brew at home: I don't have an environment to control fermentation temperature.

btw, not sure if it changes anything: I'll bottle with CO2 and not sugar.

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

@IslandLizard Thanks for you time helping out.

Dry hopping at the height of fermentation is counterproductive as much of the hop aroma is being driven off by the CO2 produced.

What about biotransformation?

 

[IslandLizard]

What about biotransformation?

Well, that's a discussion topic in itself.

For NEIPAs I add first charge of dry hops at the tail end of fermentation, around 75-80% done. It's often hard to catch it exactly. But bubbling certainly has slowed down quite a bit. I've missed that point as often as I've hit it.
Then the 2nd dryhop charge 3 days before cold crashing and subsequent kegging.

Generally the essence is to dry hop 3-5 days (7 days max) before packaging. Dry hop too early, you may lose much of the in your face aroma.

 

[IslandLizard]

btw, not sure if it changes anything: I'll bottle with CO2 and not sugar.

I'm afraid to ask how that's implemented...

In the past, has your bottled beer been sufficiently carbonated using that method?

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

I'm afraid to ask how that's implemented...

Ain't that a common thing? It's called counter pressure filling and it's pretty common where I come from (Brazil) and where I'm brewing now (Germany).

In the past, has your bottled beer been sufficiently carbonated using that method?

Yes. Much better control ofCO2 than with sugar. I prefer bottling over keg, as I brew with other friends and it's way easier to share (I'd say I drink around only 50% of the bottles I bring home).

 

[IslandLizard]

Ain't that a common thing? It's called counter pressure filling [...]

Well, yes, but that means the beer needs to be carbonated first, before filling bottles or cans. Where does that happen in your process?

 

[Mer-man]

I've used pilsner malt in my neipas before, but I much prefer standard 2 row. You need a good malt backbone for all the hops in a neipa, and I feel as though pilsner is too thin and not sweet enough to balance it all out. Plus it's more fermentable and you want some residual sweetness in a neipa.

What? Dude.

North American 2-row is a low-flavor enzyme bomb that will dry out far beyond a reasonable Pilsner malt, due to the higher Diastatic Power. 2-row usually has like double the enzyme content of continental Pilsner.

Furthermore, residual sweetness, if you mean unfermented sugar, would depend on the yeast.


If you are talking about some 2-row that is kilned to a "Pilsner" profile, sure. But there's so much sideways here . . . .

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

Well, yes, but that means the beer needs to be carbonated first, before filling bottles or cans. Where does that happen in your process?

Yes. Beer is carbonated in the fermenter before bottling time.

 

[couchsending]

Yes. Beer is carbonated in the fermenter before bottling time.

what are you fermenting in?

 

[ImGeekAndILikeBeer]

what are you fermenting in?

One of those conical stainless steel fermenter.