it still tastes bad

[mychalg9]

OP, I have had similar issues with my latest couple of batches. My extract beers had some kind of off flavor and my two all grain batches have had different off flavors, but possibly they all stem from the same "problem" in my process. Originally I thought my off flavors were from overcooking the liquid extract so I added the extract near the end of the boil instead. Then I thought it was just extract "twang", so I decided to move up to AG, using the BIAB method. After my first AG, which tasted bitter/sour, I did a lot of research and made a lot of changes to my system. I got a chiller, a swamp cooler, and got water from the store instead of using tap water. This last AG batch I did tasted good before going into the fermenter but it A)seems to have stuck at 1.025 when it should finish at ~1.012 and B)Still has the funky off flavor(s). I'm hoping when it ferments out fully that the taste will be gone, but Im not holding my breath. The first AG I did over a year ago and the taste is still there, so it doesnt age out. I get a decent Pale Ale flavor profile immediately upon sipping it, but the finish and aftertaste is really dry and bitter. I've since bought a new fermenting bucket, thinking mine may be infected, and a digital thermometer to make sure my mash temps are accurate. I also suspect that I need to aerate better than I have been, which may be a contributing cause to all 4 batches turning out bad, as well as the fact that I just pitch the dry yeast without rehydrating. This latest batch I did a 2.5 gallon Pale Ale and pitched the packet directly, so I think I should have had enough yeast (I may be wrong though), but possibly didnt aerate well enough.

You may want to look into getting new bottles to use, as well as a new fermenting bucket and hoses in case they are infected. Also maybe look into aerating your wort much better and making sure you pitch the right amount of yeast, or at least rehydrate it.

 

[arch1tect]

How hot is the wort when you pour it in the fermentor?

How do you transfer the fermented beer to be bottled/kegged?

 

[togodoug]

How hot is the wort when you pour it in the fermentor?

How do you transfer the fermented beer to be bottled/kegged?

The wort is in the 80s or 90s when transferred, then I keep cooling it until the 60s before pitching. It easier to cool the fermenter than the brew pot due to it's shape.
I transfer the beer to bottles by siphoning it into a bucket with a spigot on the bottom and just put the spigot into the bottle neck

 

[togodoug]

OP, I have had similar issues with my latest couple of batches. My extract beers had some kind of off flavor and my two all grain batches have had different off flavors, but possibly they all stem from the same "problem" in my process. Originally I thought my off flavors were from overcooking the liquid extract so I added the extract near the end of the boil instead. Then I thought it was just extract "twang", so I decided to move up to AG, using the BIAB method. After my first AG, which tasted bitter/sour, I did a lot of research and made a lot of changes to my system. I got a chiller, a swamp cooler, and got water from the store instead of using tap water. This last AG batch I did tasted good before going into the fermenter but it A)seems to have stuck at 1.025 when it should finish at ~1.012 and B)Still has the funky off flavor(s). I'm hoping when it ferments out fully that the taste will be gone, but Im not holding my breath. The first AG I did over a year ago and the taste is still there, so it doesnt age out. I get a decent Pale Ale flavor profile immediately upon sipping it, but the finish and aftertaste is really dry and bitter. I've since bought a new fermenting bucket, thinking mine may be infected, and a digital thermometer to make sure my mash temps are accurate. I also suspect that I need to aerate better than I have been, which may be a contributing cause to all 4 batches turning out bad, as well as the fact that I just pitch the dry yeast without rehydrating. This latest batch I did a 2.5 gallon Pale Ale and pitched the packet directly, so I think I should have had enough yeast (I may be wrong though), but possibly didnt aerate well enough.

You may want to look into getting new bottles to use, as well as a new fermenting bucket and hoses in case they are infected. Also maybe look into aerating your wort much better and making sure you pitch the right amount of yeast, or at least rehydrate it.

thanks. I stir like crazy for several minutes with a paddle to aerate. I'm getting a new fermeting bucket although mine has only one small scratch, and a filling wand so to by pass a spigot with the thougth it will be easier to clean than a spigot?

 

[togodoug]

Oh man, where do I start? This has got to be one of the most frustrating parts of homebrewing.


There are a few things it could be if the flavor your describing is the one I think it is. I had a persistent flavor it took years to figure out. You've already possibly ruled out the obvious ones like temperature and sanitation. But they could both still be influencing the flavor.

First question is are brewing all grain or extract?
Second-What is your sanitizer?
Third- What are you starting gravities (average)

so how did you figure it out and what was it??

 

[Ogri]

No. they were good from day 3 to 10 after being in low 70s and in the fridge for 3 to 24 hours depending on the bottle

So, what you're saying is that you've taste-tested beers that have been warm conditioning, at around 70*F, for anywhere between 3 and 10 days and they're tasting good, but you haven't tried chilling them in the fridge, to a considerably lower temp, for a week or more??

so if its bad tasting I chill a good beer gone bad and it will be good again?

Can't guarantee anything but what have you got to lose by trying???

I detected a noticeable difference in flavour, with my inaugural brew, high fermentation temp fusel bomb, nut brown ale, comparing a bottle that had been in the fridge for about 36 hours and another that had been there for close to a week. Seemed to take a little of the edge off a, possibly, yeasty bitterness and rounded out the overall flavour a wee bit.

 

[togodoug]

So, what you're saying is that you've taste-tested beers that have been warm conditioning, at around 70*F, for anywhere between 3 and 10 days and they're tasting good, but you haven't tried chilling them in the fridge, to a considerably lower temp, for a week or more??



Can't guarantee anything but what have you got to lose by trying???

I detected a noticeable difference in flavour, with my inaugural brew, high fermentation temp fusel bomb, nut brown ale, comparing a bottle that had been in the fridge for about 36 hours and another that had been there for close to a week. Seemed to take a little of the edge off a, possibly, yeasty bitterness and rounded out the overall flavour a wee bit.

I'll give it a try to salvage what is left of this batch. But it sure would be nice to have a good beer, and have it stay good.

 

[Ogri]

I'll give it a try to salvage what is left of this batch. But it sure would be nice to have a good beer, and have it stay good.

I'm with you there, mate Tell you what, though. The times I've been to Saipan and Guam, even the commercial beers I've drunk there tasted crap as soon as they warm up any after opening a bottle. The salinity and humidity of the air possibly/probably help catalyse and release oxidation type flavours. The only beer I could actually enjoy was Anchor Steam, iirc, and even then I was downing the last drop within 3-5 minutes of opening.

 

[togodoug]

I'm with you there, mate Tell you what, though. The times I've been to Saipan and Guam, even the commercial beers I've drunk there tasted crap as soon as they warm up any after opening a bottle. The salinity and humidity of the air possibly/probably help catalyse and release oxidation type flavours. The only beer I could actually enjoy was Anchor Steam, iirc, and even then I was downing the last drop within 3-5 minutes of opening.

for 10 days this was the best beer this side of Cairns. I'd love for someone in this thread to taste it. I ferment in a closed swamp cooler in mid 60s, age in a stirophome cooler with a bottle of ice at around 70 degrees.

 

[Aschecte]

The wort is in the 80s or 90s when transferred, then I keep cooling it until the 60s before pitching. It easier to cool the fermenter than the brew pot due to it's shape.
I transfer the beer to bottles by siphoning it into a bucket with a spigot on the bottom and just put the spigot into the bottle neck

ok unless you have not included all the details here...... you should not go from the spigot UNLESS you have bottle racking tube on it that extends to the bottom of the bottle. if you are truely just putting your bottle up to the spigot and filling there is no way to avoid splashing into a oxygen filled bottle and there you have it Oxidation which tastes like stale cardboard.

 

[Pommy]

ok unless you have not included all the details here...... you should not go from the spigot UNLESS you have bottle racking tube on it that extends to the bottom of the bottle. if you are truely just putting your bottle up to the spigot and filling there is no way to avoid splashing into a oxygen filled bottle and there you have it Oxidation which tastes like stale cardboard.

This would make sense but I have a friend who bottles like this (not a craft homebrewer) for his standard coopers kit, ages for two months then a month is the fridge and his beer is pretty fine for kit beet. I dont know if the extended cold aging helps with oxidised beer but that would be the first thing I would be trying. Along with thoroughly cleaning all my equipment.

 

[togodoug]

ok unless you have not included all the details here...... you should not go from the spigot UNLESS you have bottle racking tube on it that extends to the bottom of the bottle. if you are truely just putting your bottle up to the spigot and filling there is no way to avoid splashing into a oxygen filled bottle and there you have it Oxidation which tastes like stale cardboard.

That is how I've done it, no tube. But the taste is not cardboard, more bitter or sour, strong back teas or something.

 

[Aschecte]

That really sounds like tannin extraction which can either be from steeping your grains to hot or too long or from your water chemistry.

 

[togodoug]

That really sounds like tannin extraction which can either be from steeping your grains to hot or too long or from your water chemistry.

wouldn't that show up after fermentaion right at bottling?. Why would it be good at bottling and for the following 10 days? I steep at 165 deg. for 25 min.

 

[Pommy]

that certainly does sound like tannins, not wanting to insult your intelligence but you do remove the grains after steeping them? Try steeping them only up to 150F max just in case your thermometer is off. Sorry but I dont know if these are partial mash kits (need to be steeped/mashed at the correct temp) or extract plus specialty grains (no mash needed)

 

[Pommy]

wouldn't that show up after fermentaion right at bottling?. Why would it be good at bottling and for the following 10 days? I steep at 165 deg. for 25 min.

that is what i would have thought but carbonation may bring them to the fore, not had problems with tannins so not too sure, have you tasted one once its gone flat again to compare?

 

[togodoug]

that is what i would have thought but carbonation may bring them to the fore, not had problems with tannins so not too sure, have you tasted one once its gone flat again to compare?

letting it go flat has not removed the off flavor.

 

[jgln]

There is a joke here you know.......

 

[mychalg9]

I was killing time at the library yesterday and picked up "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil and was reading the section on water. One passage stuck out at me, and that was something along the lines of "if the acidity of your wort is too high, it could cause off flavors such as x(not relevant), y(not relevant), and extremely bitter off-flavors (or something to that extent)." That last part really stuck out at me, as I havent seen too much mention of it on the forums here. The last 2 AG beers I've made have had very bitter flavors. I'm not sure if this pertains your situation, OP, but I thought I would bring it up.

Another issue that I personally need to address is the possibility of DMS, because I have had the lid partially on my kettle for at least part of my last two boils. I dont know if this has an effect on extract kits, but since I am doing AG it is certainly something I need to fix on my next beer.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I would ditch the sponge. I can't remember if I saw this or read it in an article, but it said something to the effect of sanitizing isn't the same as disinfecting. Disinfecting kills virtually all micro organisms where as sanitizing kills most. The sponge, to me, is the only place in your sanitization process that raises any concerns. If you stay on top of cleaning your equipment and bottles right after use, then you shouldn't need to use a sponge. Just a little elbow grease if anything.

As for oxidation, splashing it into an oxygen filled bottle will over time oxidize your beer, but from what I've read, that should take a lot longer than 10+ days where you say it pretty much goes bad from there. So, IMHO, I'd say it's sanitization.

 

[mychalg9]

Here is also a bit of interesting info I found on the Homebrewtalk Wiki page regarding Mash pH:

Palmer suggests the following ranges for Ca, Mg, SO4 and Cl in brewing water [Palmer, 2005]:

Calcium: 50 - 150 ppm
Magnesium: 10 - 30 ppm (high levels taste sour/bitter)
Sulfate: 50 - 150 ppm (accentuates hop bitterness, but high concentrations (>400) it is harsh and unpleasant)
Chloride: 0 - 2500 ppm (Excessive concentrations can lead to chlorophenol off-flavors)
The effect of the Sulfates on hop bitterness are one reason why many brewers prefer calcium chloride (CaCl) additions over gypsum (calcium sulfate, CaSO4) additions for mash acidification.

 

[MazdaMatt]

When you described your bottling-day sanitization process you said that you fill, soak and dump iodaphore solution from the bottles... but you never said anything about washing them.

Next time you are going to bottle, put a dash (1/4 tsp?) of OxyClean into each bottle and fill them all with super hot water. Let it sit for 1 hour. Dump them out, rinse them twice and scrub them with a bottle brush while full and rinse again, THEN fill them with iodaphore solution. Also, use a bottle tree so nothing floating in the wind can enter your bottle. Spray the ones that are drying on the tree with iodaphore solution as you go so they can't dry out (iodaphore only protects when wet).

Good luck.

 

[togodoug]

I was killing time at the library yesterday and picked up "Brewing Classic Styles" by Jamil and was reading the section on water. One passage stuck out at me, and that was something along the lines of "if the acidity of your wort is too high, it could cause off flavors such as x(not relevant), y(not relevant), and extremely bitter off-flavors (or something to that extent)." That last part really stuck out at me, as I havent seen too much mention of it on the forums here. The last 2 AG beers I've made have had very bitter flavors. I'm not sure if this pertains your situation, OP, but I thought I would bring it up.

Another issue that I personally need to address is the possibility of DMS, because I have had the lid partially on my kettle for at least part of my last two boils. I dont know if this has an effect on extract kits, but since I am doing AG it is certainly something I need to fix on my next beer.

I brew with the lid on as much as possible to retain heat. Never thought of DMS. But from what I read the off taste is not DMS. How great would that be if this is the issue? It's a sour / bitter , not corn or cabbage taste.

 

[mychalg9]

I am also getting a sour/bitter taste, and I also think it is unlikely to be DMS in my situation, but I think if it is something as simple as keeping the lid off, I will try it next time I brew. I dont know if DMS is a factor if you are extract brewing (or if it is, how much of a factor is it?), but since I am doing All Grain I was worried about it after my first batch because not only did I have the lid on for part of the boil, but I also didnt have a wort chiller and it took a long time to cool. The second batch I used a wort chiller but still had the lid on for part of the boil, so this next time I will try no lid throughout the boil. If that still fails it may be the water I am using, but this last batch I also tried store bought gallons of drinking water. Are those safe enough to use? Could I be getting acidity in the wort due to the water? Or doing something wrong when mashing and throwing the balance way off?

 

[togodoug]

AIR in the siphon line at bottling. How would this effecet outcome/ taste? How to eliminate it?

 

[Pommy]

wouldnt do much tbh. how does the air get into the siphon? That wont be the problem causing the off flavours.

 

[Ogri]

wouldnt do much tbh. how does the air get into the siphon? That wont be the problem causing the off flavours.

Unless you've got a leak in your syphoning equipment somewhere between primary and secondary/bottling, the bubbles you are seeing come down the bottling tube would be CO2, wouldn't they??

 

[togodoug]

I use an auto siphon which is lke a two foot long hard plastic tube in a sleve. The hard plastic tube has a curve at the end. At the curve I attach tubing. Its at this joint where air comes in. I have it jammed on aboiut 3 inches worth, but still a small stream of air bubbles is coming in.
But from what you both are saying, this is not my problem.

 

[Ogri]

Its at this joint where air comes in. I have it jammed on aboiut 3 inches worth, but still a small stream of air bubbles is coming in.

Well, that seems to be a leak, somewhere between primary and bottling/secondary then, doesn't it? Is there any way you could get that fully sealed/airtight and then strike that variable off your checklist for possible causes of your flavour problem?

My bottling wand is attached to a tube that is connected to the spigot on my primary. I could see bubbles coming down through the spigot into the tubing, so I knew they weren't originating at the connection point, therefore I assumed these were just CO2 bubbles and that this might be what you were seeing. From your description I'd have to say that's not the case.

 

[BOBrob]

A small screw camp over the tubing on your auto siphon connection will seal it. There should be little gas left in the brew, clear with a slight carbonation started running down the tube. Cheers

 

[stratslinger]

Another tip, or at least an observation, on siphon use:

I've found that if the container I'm siphoning into (secondary, keg, etc) is too far below the container I'm siphoning out of, I get some really fine bubbles in my siphon and racking tube. But, if I lift up the container I'm siphoning into, those bubbles disappear. For instance, if I put my fermenter on a work table and my keg directly on the floor, I can guarantee that I'll have bubbles in my siphon. But if I stand the keg on an upside-down 5 gallon bucket on the floor (or leave it where it is and move the fermenter to said 5 gallon bucket instead of the table top), the bubbles will cease.

 

[Aschecte]

Another tip, or at least an observation, on siphon use:

I've found that if the container I'm siphoning into (secondary, keg, etc) is too far below the container I'm siphoning out of, I get some really fine bubbles in my siphon and racking tube. But, if I lift up the container I'm siphoning into, those bubbles disappear. For instance, if I put my fermenter on a work table and my keg directly on the floor, I can guarantee that I'll have bubbles in my siphon. But if I stand the keg on an upside-down 5 gallon bucket on the floor (or leave it where it is and move the fermenter to said 5 gallon bucket instead of the table top), the bubbles will cease.

I've expierenced this too. What causes this ? I would think if the siphon is in the beer and the tubing is tight on the racking tubing no air should be infusing.... unless the seals are not good on the auto-siphon and in is coming in through the rubber gasket on the plunger or the tubing is ot tight... I just don't know why this happens.

 

[BOBrob]

Gravity. A siphon work because of gravity, but air will fill the void between the upper and lower level; or try to and you get little bubbles. Look at a waterfalls, its a giant water bubble. Cheers

 

[togodoug]

Just to recap.
I brew several batches with the same off / bitter/ astringent after taste. The only batch that was a great pale ale, which went to tasting similar to the others after 10 days in the bottle. Then I brewed a batch of an IPA that was good. Among the many suggestions was to refrigerate what was left of the great-batch-gone-bad to see if it would "come back". I did and it did.
QUESTIONS.
1 Why did the great batch that had gone off get better after a few weeks in the fridg.?
2What is "Extract twang", could that be what I have and is there a cure without going all grain?
3 I've used LME. If I use DME will that be better? That is the only ingredient common to all batches.
4 Is it just not possible to get a really good beer with extract? I think I've had some, in fact made one but as I said it turned in 10 days.
Thanks

 

[Ogri]

1 Why did the great batch that had gone off get better after a few weeks in the fridg.?

Can't be absolutely certain but one possibility might be that the longer fridge time helps the yeast drop out of suspension to a greater extent, solidify on the bottom of the bottle and you are getting less of the yeast flavour when you're drinking than before.

2What is "Extract twang", could that be what I have and is there a cure without going all grain?

Can't say as I've never experienced extract twang on any/all of the all extract brews I've done. I am of the understanding that it can be caused by extract being past its sell by date, but have seen threads with posts stating that that might not be the case, or if you add extract, boil and then scorch your brew kettle.

3 I've used LME. If I use DME will that be better? That is the only ingredient common to all batches.

Supposedly DME, if stored properly, won't be prone to flavour change with time stored in the same way LME is. But again, see above

4 Is it just not possible to get a really good beer with extract? I think I've had some, in fact made one but as I said it turned in 10 days.
Thanks

It seems there are a lot of brewers who're getting great results with extract. There has to be something with your process or environmental conditions that is hindering your progress.

Glad to hear that the extended fridge time worked a bit of magic

 

[nasmeyer]

AIR in the siphon line at bottling. How would this effecet outcome/ taste? How to eliminate it?

I have had this happen from time to time, and solved it by simply wrapping some teflon tape around the tubing where the tube meets the auto siphon. The air leak will be gone, and it can be easily removed to clean when done racking.

 

[Ogri]

Here's a thread, on a somewhat related topic, that you might glean some insight from reading;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/unhappy-extract-brewer-284266/

 

[togodoug]

I just thought I'd share an update. My last two batches, a porter and very hoppy pale ale, turned out fine. I do'nt know why; I may have inadvertantly sanatized correctly, it could be because I finally got the air out of my syphone line using a hose clamp, or maybe because I stopped covering the boil. (I made all three changes at the same time). Anyway, thanks for the help.

 

[TheSlash]

Thanks togodoug. My last 2 have been much better, I really think it is coming down to sanitation. My Starsan was so cloudy, I don't think it was working great either. Plus I started covering my chilling, I had let them sit open air before!!! ack. But a serious soak in oxy for my fermenters, proper star san usage, all added up to better beer.

Not great beer.... but getting better.

Going back to all grain shortly and will crush less and just plan for lower efficiency as I had way too much powder before. Will update.

 

[jIM_Ohio]

I would also ask how do you clean before you sanitize? With soap? Is the soap rinsed (if you fill pot or bucket with hot water, does it foam up? Is the bucket dry before you add wort?

Are you using hops bags, or adding the hops to the wort? At what part of the boil are you adding hops (list the recipe).