Interesting German Brewing PDF
- Thread starter rabeb25
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Well, I did, and it doesn't mention decoction mashing anywhere (not in a PDF search at least). The paper (more of a collection of observations which is cool) doesn't address it.
I haven't see it anywhere but, no one has mentioned Noonan's book and how he mentions that those really malty flavors are hard to achieve without a decoction. Some things in his book go against low O2 principle such a vigorous boil which is necessary to break down the wort properly in essence. Noonen's book is a few years old, is it no longer valid in some ways?
I haven't see it anywhere but, no one has mentioned Noonan's book and how he mentions that those really malty flavors are hard to achieve without a decoction. Some things in his book go against low O2 principle such a vigorous boil which is necessary to break down the wort properly in essence. Noonen's book is a few years old, is it no longer valid in some ways?
I would not rely on Noonan for information on brewing German lagers. I've been to Vermont Pub & Brewery, and frankly their beer was pretty bad.
If you want to make beer that tastes what the likes of Augustiner, Andechs, Weihenstephaner or Ayinger are making nowadays, you're better off reading the same textbooks that the people who work for those breweries read when they went to university in Germany getting their brewing degrees. You can find the references to those at the end of the PDF. The PDF itself is essentially an extremely condensed version of the key takeaways from those books, adapted for a homebrewing system.
If you want to make beer that tastes what the likes of Augustiner, Andechs, Weihenstephaner or Ayinger are making nowadays, you're better off reading the same textbooks that the people who work for those breweries read when they went to university in Germany getting their brewing degrees. You can find the references to those at the end of the PDF. The PDF itself is essentially an extremely condensed version of the key takeaways from those books, adapted for a homebrewing system.
Ah, thanks a lot Techbrau. Ive always been a bit leary about some of the books that I have purchased since I could really not tell how good the authors credential's really where, and how they became an "authority" of any kind, and why some of their information contradicted one another. A German point of view, vested in formal education is something I have been really struggling to find. Really appreciate the info.
But then are you guys saying none of the traditional German breweries are doing decoction anymore?
That was one question of mine never really answered: several that I talked to in Prague said that all the good Czech breweries are still using decoction. Urquell was one of those mentioned as having that unique malty character, but everyone I talked to there in Prague said they're still doing the decoction even there. Is this just folklore?
Edit: Never mind. Found it on their website:
http://pilsnerurquell.com/se/article/pilsner-urquell-triple-decoction
Seems they're doing quite a lot against the Low O2 brewing, yet they were named as a beer with this defining characteristic.
That was one question of mine never really answered: several that I talked to in Prague said that all the good Czech breweries are still using decoction. Urquell was one of those mentioned as having that unique malty character, but everyone I talked to there in Prague said they're still doing the decoction even there. Is this just folklore?
Edit: Never mind. Found it on their website:
http://pilsnerurquell.com/se/article/pilsner-urquell-triple-decoction
Seems they're doing quite a lot against the Low O2 brewing, yet they were named as a beer with this defining characteristic.
wobdee
Junior Member
I stopped using my spunding valve too. I just rack to the sealed keg with 4 gravity points left and it ends up perfect. I wouldn't recommend that to anyone however unless your process is very predictable and your measurements accurate.
LoDO is pretty mind-blowing, isn't it?
Your talking specific gravity points not Plato correct?
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Yup, specific gravity.
I don't have experience with decoction, but conceptually I don't see the benefit. It made sense before the days of thermometers as boiling is as hot as you can make anything, so it created a simple baseline. But we have highly accurate/repeatable probes and science of enzymes now. I can see a commercial brewery doing it "like they always have", but for novel brews I don't see the sense.
I don't think you can do it in LODO but the pros here will decide that.
I don't think you can do it in LODO but the pros here will decide that.
wobdee
Junior Member
Just about ready to give this spunding thing a try. Ive done quite a few lodo cold ferments and got my refractometer figured out so I can take samples to figure where I'm at without wasting too much beer with hydrometer samples since I do small 2.5 gal batches. Looks like I can get a 1.050 brew fermented, kegged, spunded and lowered down to a 32° lagering temp by day 14. This will free up my fermenting chamber so I can keep my every other week brewing schedule going and not have to buy another fridge.
Realized the other day i totally invalidated this experiment. The original recipe calls for Briess Black Barley (500L). I used Thomas Fawcette Roasted Barley (500-700L). Unfortunately it didn't click with me until afterwards that i had gone out of my way to get the 500L stuff last time. I just saw "Roasted Barley" on the recipe and bought that.
My fermentation sample, now at 6 plato (FFT indicated FG of 3.7 plato), has some notes of coffee and dark chocolate. I still think this is going to be good, but i can't call this a true experiment without using an identical recipe. Maybe next year when i make it again i'll do it right....
Perhaps you will still taste a difference in the other 95% of the grain bill?
I do taste a difference. But i don't think its a valid experiment anymore because i taste a difference in the roast character, but one of the major roast malts was different.
In regard to the concern that roasted malt is much amplified in LoDO, i would say there may be some truth to it, but it's not like a beer with 15% roast is all of a sudden only going to need 5% in LoDO. Hard to judge in this case but i can definitely say the roast isn't dramatically over powering the beer as was cautioned.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
I just read a "post ferment oxygenation" ex-beeriment and laughed and laughed.
Whoo! Thanks Marshall, I needed that after family visiting for the Holidays!
Whoo! Thanks Marshall, I needed that after family visiting for the Holidays!
Has anyone noticed any efficiency changes when switching to LoDO?
I've seen a huge drop, coinciding with the change in process, but not sure if its the LoDO or some other part of my system... thought it was my barely crusher but even my monster mill 3 topped out at 80% with a significant sparge.
I've seen a huge drop, coinciding with the change in process, but not sure if its the LoDO or some other part of my system... thought it was my barely crusher but even my monster mill 3 topped out at 80% with a significant sparge.
Not with my recirculated system. I am sitting right around 95-100% conversion efficiency (meaning I get 37-38 P/P/G in my mash). My brewhouse efficiency is a bit over 80% but that's entirely kettle and mash tun deadspace losses. I've heard a few anecdotes from people with non-recirculated systems complaining about the efficiency loss though.
Magnus314
Well-Known Member
84% no sparge and 88% with a sparge. No deadspace since I mash in the kettle.
Could be your Malt hasn't gelatinised sufficiently. This years crop needs a much higher temperature (source: Brauwelt). Try your beta/maltose rest at higher temperatures, such as 64-65C -- which is what some maltsters seem to recommend.
For maximum effect, I do 10'@62, 20'@65 and 10'@68 Celsius. You can adjust your EVG/Vsend by prolonging or shortening the time at 65C.
Happy new year
For maximum effect, I do 10'@62, 20'@65 and 10'@68 Celsius. You can adjust your EVG/Vsend by prolonging or shortening the time at 65C.
Happy new year
My last non-LoDO batch was an english pale ale, and i got 95% efficiency to the kettle. This was very close to what i'd had in my last ~50 batches over several years. I've used that same bag of grain (thomas fawcett floor malted MO) in 2 other LoDO brews that have had the ~80% or less efficiency. All my bulk grain was purchased in 50lb sacks about 6 months ago.
It could be the mash profile. I've been doing this schedule now for all LoDO except the first one (which i followed the PDF exactly).
I've been mashing in at 131F (55C), ramping right to 144F (62C), holding for 40 mins, ramping to 162 (72C), holding for 30 mins, then ramping to 170F (76C) and holding for 10 mins (or whenever my sparge water has finished boiling/SMB resting.
It could be the mash profile. I've been doing this schedule now for all LoDO except the first one (which i followed the PDF exactly).
I've been mashing in at 131F (55C), ramping right to 144F (62C), holding for 40 mins, ramping to 162 (72C), holding for 30 mins, then ramping to 170F (76C) and holding for 10 mins (or whenever my sparge water has finished boiling/SMB resting.
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Are you using best malz? I had horrible luck getting that to gelatinze properly this year and saw high eff hits. 62c will be way to low for that this year. 65c minimum depending on what your lot numbers are like Edelstoff said.
I have used Best Pilsner in 4 of my 7 LoDO batches. I don't think that's the only thing though - in my 7 LoDO beers the highest efficiency, 88%, was 88% Best Pilsner. My worst effiency batch only used it at a rate of 30%.
Reviewing some of my more recent data i think the maltose rest may be part of the problem. There is a slight correlation between me going to a 144F maltose rest (down from 145-146), and having an efficiency drop. Next time i'll bump it up a couple degrees.
Is the gelatinization issue just for Best, or is it a regional or worldwide issue?
Reviewing some of my more recent data i think the maltose rest may be part of the problem. There is a slight correlation between me going to a 144F maltose rest (down from 145-146), and having an efficiency drop. Next time i'll bump it up a couple degrees.
Is the gelatinization issue just for Best, or is it a regional or worldwide issue?
So I made my first attempt at LODO brewing with an IPA I make quite often so I have a reference with this recipe for any taste improvements, etc..
Ironically, the only LODO things I read up on that I needed to do with my brew day that I was NOT already doing was the pre-boil strike/sparge along with the SMB additions and making sure all stirring/recircing on the hot side was done as quietly as possible. Should be easy right? :fro:
It was a brew day of the good/bad/ugly and a bit of opining for next steps attempting this with my system...
This IPA was basically 2-row with some C60 and Munich 10.
The Mash - Was able to boil the needed strike water without issue for 10 mins in the HLT, add the appropriate amount of SMB (and other water additions as per the desired profile) and x-ferred the strike water to the MLT quietly(and with the MT lid ON.
The sparge water was boiled in the HLT next for 10 mins, SMB was added and during the chilling process and then my nephew who is my brew helper accidentally closed both valves on the HERMS (top and bottom) during sparge chill which caused pressure (water being heated rapidly) in the HERMs coil which lead it to shake and pull one of its ends OUT of the compression fitting..BLOW OUT!
Ended up having to (as quietly as possible) x-ferring the sparge water to boil kettle, fix the HERMS coil and as quietly as possible move the water back to the HLT. I probably introduced a bit more Oxygen than I wanted to with this, but it is what it is.
Mash-in - I used a SS bowl and carefully moved the grain from grain bucket into the MT and made sure I stirred very, very lightly, submerging the grains as soon as they hit the water to reduce trapped oxygen. Doing this ensured zero dough balls so there was honestly minimal stirring needed for mash-in.
I put the recirc hose under the water line of mash and left the lid on the MT on the entire time of the mash.
For the mash (I mashed at 151 for 60 with recirc again, with the recirc hose UNDER the water line), I DID notice that the wort was much clearer and brighter with much less "foam" on the surface than I normally see in it. I have pics of all of this that I will eventually post but Photobucket is acting up so that will come later.
Wort was delicious and malty.
On mash out/sparge to kettle, the wort was very clear..much clearer and was probably the clearest wort I have had to date..Again, I have pics, but will post later.
Boiled at the suggested temp for "simmering" for 60mins at 210/211 (easy to do with my system and I do this anyhow to minimize boilovers) and chilled wort to 65deg, xferred to buckets and pitched a pack and a half of S05 during fill up so it gets aerated/mixed in well.
I hit all my numbers from MT to fermenter on both the PH and gravity side so I did not see any lack in efficiency on my system going LODO at all.
Will have to wait and see how this turns out as I normally x-fer to a purged keg using the out-post for reduced splashing/oxygen introduction even when not brewing LODO and I dont have a spunding setup yet (waiting to see if any of this actually matters before spending more money with this honestly) so x-ferring to a fully purged keg will have to do for now.
Brew Day Notes:
I have high hopes for this IPA even with the sparge mishap. I really think the mash did have some significant improvement over previous batches both from a visual and sensory aspect.
I also need to find a better way to chill the sparge water in the HLT..maybe an additional bag of ice with a cooler to continually push cold water through the HERMS might do the trick but will see how this batch turns out before continuing down this road.
Additional improvements to try on my end:
- Figure out/streamline the sparge chilling issue (again a cooler with ice water getting pushed through the herms coil might work here)
- Replace all transfer hoses (planned to do this anyway this year)
- Clean/service pumps, pump connections and pump heads (planned to do this anyway this year)
All in all, this certainly added significant time to the brew day and I have yet to see an end result with this being my first batch, but if the beer is better, I will continue to move toward this path and invest more time/$$ into it.
More to come with my first LODO go as this beer gets closer to being ready.
Bill
Ironically, the only LODO things I read up on that I needed to do with my brew day that I was NOT already doing was the pre-boil strike/sparge along with the SMB additions and making sure all stirring/recircing on the hot side was done as quietly as possible. Should be easy right? :fro:
It was a brew day of the good/bad/ugly and a bit of opining for next steps attempting this with my system...
This IPA was basically 2-row with some C60 and Munich 10.
The Mash - Was able to boil the needed strike water without issue for 10 mins in the HLT, add the appropriate amount of SMB (and other water additions as per the desired profile) and x-ferred the strike water to the MLT quietly(and with the MT lid ON.
The sparge water was boiled in the HLT next for 10 mins, SMB was added and during the chilling process and then my nephew who is my brew helper accidentally closed both valves on the HERMS (top and bottom) during sparge chill which caused pressure (water being heated rapidly) in the HERMs coil which lead it to shake and pull one of its ends OUT of the compression fitting..BLOW OUT!
Ended up having to (as quietly as possible) x-ferring the sparge water to boil kettle, fix the HERMS coil and as quietly as possible move the water back to the HLT. I probably introduced a bit more Oxygen than I wanted to with this, but it is what it is.
Mash-in - I used a SS bowl and carefully moved the grain from grain bucket into the MT and made sure I stirred very, very lightly, submerging the grains as soon as they hit the water to reduce trapped oxygen. Doing this ensured zero dough balls so there was honestly minimal stirring needed for mash-in.
I put the recirc hose under the water line of mash and left the lid on the MT on the entire time of the mash.
For the mash (I mashed at 151 for 60 with recirc again, with the recirc hose UNDER the water line), I DID notice that the wort was much clearer and brighter with much less "foam" on the surface than I normally see in it. I have pics of all of this that I will eventually post but Photobucket is acting up so that will come later.
Wort was delicious and malty.
On mash out/sparge to kettle, the wort was very clear..much clearer and was probably the clearest wort I have had to date..Again, I have pics, but will post later.
Boiled at the suggested temp for "simmering" for 60mins at 210/211 (easy to do with my system and I do this anyhow to minimize boilovers) and chilled wort to 65deg, xferred to buckets and pitched a pack and a half of S05 during fill up so it gets aerated/mixed in well.
I hit all my numbers from MT to fermenter on both the PH and gravity side so I did not see any lack in efficiency on my system going LODO at all.
Will have to wait and see how this turns out as I normally x-fer to a purged keg using the out-post for reduced splashing/oxygen introduction even when not brewing LODO and I dont have a spunding setup yet (waiting to see if any of this actually matters before spending more money with this honestly) so x-ferring to a fully purged keg will have to do for now.
Brew Day Notes:
I have high hopes for this IPA even with the sparge mishap. I really think the mash did have some significant improvement over previous batches both from a visual and sensory aspect.
I also need to find a better way to chill the sparge water in the HLT..maybe an additional bag of ice with a cooler to continually push cold water through the HERMS might do the trick but will see how this batch turns out before continuing down this road.
Additional improvements to try on my end:
- Figure out/streamline the sparge chilling issue (again a cooler with ice water getting pushed through the herms coil might work here)
- Replace all transfer hoses (planned to do this anyway this year)
- Clean/service pumps, pump connections and pump heads (planned to do this anyway this year)
All in all, this certainly added significant time to the brew day and I have yet to see an end result with this being my first batch, but if the beer is better, I will continue to move toward this path and invest more time/$$ into it.
More to come with my first LODO go as this beer gets closer to being ready.
Bill
Not totally sure of your system but maybe some things to consider. They were changes I've made that LoDo or not I think are worth keeping as they make brew day easier IMO.
-Full volume mashing. Sparging really isn't necessary, takes more time, more gear, more work.
-Have your grain already in the tun and bottom fill the mash water, I use a siphon. Much less O2 ingress compared to stirring the grain in, it's faster, and a lot less work. A couple pump rests accomplishes the same thing as stirring the mash up and eliminates having to worry about splashing. You also get a bit of a window to adjust your mash ph before hitting conversion temps.
-Full volume mashing. Sparging really isn't necessary, takes more time, more gear, more work.
-Have your grain already in the tun and bottom fill the mash water, I use a siphon. Much less O2 ingress compared to stirring the grain in, it's faster, and a lot less work. A couple pump rests accomplishes the same thing as stirring the mash up and eliminates having to worry about splashing. You also get a bit of a window to adjust your mash ph before hitting conversion temps.
Unfortunately I dont have the gear for a full volume mash at this time..
On the second note, sounds like an idea, but would the water from the bottom-up method turn that grain into a giant doughball which would require stirring?
Never tried it but figured I would ask..It would also mean I would need to bring the strike water to mash-in temps coming out of the HLT from boiling which still has the issue of cooling the strike/sparge water.
This batch, I x-ferred the water over to the MT and from there, equalized it with a recirc to the HLT HERMS water for getting it to mashing temp (what I would do in a non-LODO situation).
Good ideas..just need to continue to think through the chilling method a bit more..The idea of triple chilling sounds like quite a bit of water/ice to go through for this but again, if the beer is that much better..
Full volume mashing doesn't take extra gear but you do need a big enough MT to be able to pull it off. Also I should have pointed out on the second thing I noted... I'm using the yeast/dextrose method for my water in my old HLT cooler. This eliminates needing to cool strike/mash water. If your boiling your water then obviously the same approach won't quite work.
It's weather dependent. I only have the data for German malts.
So it's nationwide.
Next harvest might be different.
Learn something new everyday..I had no idea this yeast/dextrose was an option..I absolutely have space to do this overnight in my old igloo MT cooler that I have a quick disconnect on already to move the sparge water back to the HLT after striking in.
I could use the HLT as the holding tank for the strike water to do the yeast/Dextrose DO method.
When doing this in your cooler, how are you moving it back to heat up the water to strike temp?
Also what's your ratio of dextrose/yeast per gal of water and what sort of yeast are you using for this? Just bread yeast or something else?
Many thanks as this method is completely new to me and will certainly keep the brew day boiling/chilling to a minimum.
😎
I treat my water overnight with 1 tbsp dry yeast and 1 tbsp white sugar. I don't remember the exact number of grams they used, its posted somewhere, just that I measured it and it was about a tbsp so Ive been rolling with that. When Im ready to mash in I pop the lid off the cooler and use my siphon to rack it to the kettle. Between this and the full volume mashing I was able to drastically cut back my SMB use and make brewday that much lazier
For yeast Ive been using Red Star. Cost like a few bucks for a 500g brick. Its been my only investment in making the move to LoDo.
**Edit - Want to throw out there that some seem to feel that the boiling method holds the fresh grain flavors longer than the yeast/dextrose method. I haven't tried them both to have an opinion but figured I'd throw that out there.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
If I brew my normal Dunkel with this method, will it be too intense or should I cut some of the Munich II with Pils, Pale, Vienna or Munich I? Normal Dunkel is 98% Weyermann Munich II and 2% Carafa Special II.
ParanoidAndroid
Well-Known Member
I treat my water overnight with 1 tbsp dry yeast and 1 tbsp white sugar. I don't remember the exact number of grams they used, its posted somewhere, just that I measured it and it was about a tbsp so Ive been rolling with that. When Im ready to mash in I pop the lid off the cooler and use my siphon to rack it to the kettle. Between this and the full volume mashing I was able to drastically cut back my SMB use and make brewday that much lazier
For yeast Ive been using Red Star. Cost like a few bucks for a 500g brick. Its been my only investment in making the move to LoDo.
**Edit - Want to throw out there that some seem to feel that the boiling method holds the fresh grain flavors longer than the yeast/dextrose method. I haven't tried them both to have an opinion but figured I'd throw that out there.
The ratio is 1.6 g/gal yeast to 0.8 g/gal dextrose.
I too leave it either overnight or during the workday. It depends on whether I am brewing in the morning or afternoon. Its about 8-10 hours either way.
I wish I had a DO meter to see what the minimal dose of each is to get the DO down to 0.
Interesting footnote..wonder if somehow boiling the water provides some other additional protection barrier (full bacterial boil-off maybe?) that helps with LODO..
I did notice you mentioned you treat your water overnight..Have you tried just treating it an hour or 2 before striking in and seeing any difference in DO or final result?
Also are you measuring your water DO with any meters? I dont have one yet as I am really waiting to see if this actually helps the beer or not before dropping another $150 for a meter so it would be good to see your numbers if you are pulling them with a meter prior to heating up your water..
Great info and sounds like I need to brew 2 batches of my award winning blonde (pilsner) using the boil method for one and yeast/dextrose with the other to see how they both turn out for a side by side (or triangle test with some willing drinkers) test.
Paranoid, this is good info and it sounds like you are doing the overnight soak as well..have you tried the boil method to see if there is anything to the boil method being preferred to the yeast/dext method?
I also wish I had a DO meter..damn things are expensive and I am really not wanting to drop another $150/$200 on anything else gear-wise unless this method really is a game changer for my beer and its quality..especially the german beers I love to brew and drink.
:fro:
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Having tested both methods, I am one of the "claimers" of the flavor. First and foremost I have to say hats of to bilsch for the method.. its ingenious. It has helped countless people out and needs to be noted. That said,
I find it to not be as "clean" as the preboil. Maybe its the mixture, maybe it's the yeast decomposing in the mash/boil, but its something. My best descriptor is "muddy". I have never actually side by side tested them, just going off memory from previous batches. Having brewed about 230+ low oxygen batches with preboil, and about 10-15 with the yeast method. Its probably splitting hairs, but its noticeable to me and I strive to make the best beer humanly possible. So, with that said... Don't let me try and turn anyone off from the method, as its brilliant and some folks may not be after that last % or 3.
I find it to not be as "clean" as the preboil. Maybe its the mixture, maybe it's the yeast decomposing in the mash/boil, but its something. My best descriptor is "muddy". I have never actually side by side tested them, just going off memory from previous batches. Having brewed about 230+ low oxygen batches with preboil, and about 10-15 with the yeast method. Its probably splitting hairs, but its noticeable to me and I strive to make the best beer humanly possible. So, with that said... Don't let me try and turn anyone off from the method, as its brilliant and some folks may not be after that last % or 3.
With the yeast method I think you need a DO meter to verify that it actually worked. Sometimes the yeast is stale and doesn't work, some strains have been found to work slower than others, etc.
The biggest advantage of the preboil method is that you don't need a DO meter. When you see it boiling, you know it's degassed.
The biggest advantage of the preboil method is that you don't need a DO meter. When you see it boiling, you know it's degassed.
have you done a side by side test? I was considering doing a triangle test with the mini mash.
OP
OP
rabeb25
HE of who can not be spoken of.
Good point on the yeast viability and time to degass using this method..
I think I might stick with the preboil option for now until I can get that DO meter if this becomes something I continue to roll with.
On the boiling option, how do you chill your water once its degassed? I worry the longer it takes to chill and use, the more exposure to oxygen you will have with it.
I have a HERMS system so I can pump cold water through the HERMS coil to get it to temp, but just not sure if there is better way to chill the water or not.
After some thought, I am thinking of using my BK as a cold water holding tank to pump through the HERMS and back into the BK through the whirlpool port to chill the strike and sparge water down as needed as its the perfect vessel to use for this without having to lug a cold water cooler around.
Again, the concern w/me is with the amount of additional water and ice needed to bring the strike/sparge to usable temps though..I am guessing about 2 additional bags of ice mixed in with about 2/3 of cold ground water in the 15.5 BK I have would get both to temp as needed.
Odorless mash is a dead giveaway IMO and the color difference is also pretty noticeable. But your right there is no arguing the fact that boiling leaves no guessing room without the meter.
I've treated my water an hour or so ahead while I prep but I've never done taste tests to compare. The numbers support the idea that the extra time will help bring the DO damn low so I figure it's a safer bet to do the night before.
LoDO Oat Stout is on tap, naturally carbonated and cold conditioned at 17 days from grain.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1483669041.061713.jpg
Flavor is a little crisper and cleaner than the non LoDO version. Even with the roasted barley malt mix up (used UK 500-700L instead of briess 500L) I would say in this recipe the roast was not really amplified as was cautioned.
I'd do it again as-is.
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1483669041.061713.jpg
Flavor is a little crisper and cleaner than the non LoDO version. Even with the roasted barley malt mix up (used UK 500-700L instead of briess 500L) I would say in this recipe the roast was not really amplified as was cautioned.
I'd do it again as-is.
