Interesting German Brewing PDF

[whovous]

EDIT: buy a set of feeler gauges if you don't have them. Also the idle roller should spin very freely. If not you may have dust built up. I blow mine out with the air compressor immediately after every use and tons of stuff comes out.

You added your edit after my prior reply. I have feeler gauges, but my idle roller does not spin freely. I finished off a can of compressed air on it and some things came out. It will spin for part of a turn and then catch slightly. What else should I be doing here?

EDIT - Never mind. Google really is my friend. I am going to take it apart and use wire brushes to clean the rollers (which look fairly OK to me) and the brass bushings. I will add a drop of veg oil to the bushings and follow the maker's advice and rotate the passive roller 180 degrees when I put it all back together. Pictorials make it all look very easy, but with my mad skills, something will doubtless take longer than it should.

 

[Jwin]

I hate to be that guy, but I know I have been this guy...
Is it spinning the correct direction?

 

[whovous]

Are you asking about the idler roller or the one that is cranked? The idler spins poorly in either direction. The other grinds only in one direction. I'm not that guy, or at least not this time.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Hmmm, never had the mill from Matthias suddenly play up on me. This one is in heavy use for quite a few years.

http://www.mattmill.de/mattmill-kompakt/

But then, Matthias is a properly trained tool-maker by profession. Might be worth looking into for whoever is considering replacing/repairing their equipment.

Comes with a life-time guarantee too.

 

[schematix]

Hmmm, never had the mill from Matthias suddenly play up on me. This one is in heavy use for quite a few years.

http://www.mattmill.de/mattmill-kompakt/

But then, Matthias is a properly trained tool-maker by profession. Might be worth looking into for whoever is considering replacing/repairing their equipment.

Comes with a life-time guarantee too.

I came across that one recently in my search for a new mill. If they had a US supplier i would have one on the way already. The craftsmanship on it looks outstanding.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Is underattenuation a characteristic of something I'm doing wrong with LODO?

I've had two back to back batches finish at 1.018 (English Mild @ 2.6% abv) and 1.028 (Oatmeal Stout @ 4.8 % abv).

With me not wanting to open my fermenter to check on SG, I cant really get a reading until its kegged.

I'm not spunding yet. I'm just letting it finish in the ferm for 10-14 days then doing a CO2 transfer. I have a chamber that starts at 65-66 then I let it rise to 70.

The only thing I can think of is not enough oxygen at pitching. I've recently started using an O2 tank with a diffusion stone. The stone is 2.0 microns as opposed to the 0.5 that is recommended (an error on ordering). I shoot it at 1.0 lpm for 45 seconds (3.25 gal batches).

I'm thinking about switching to 30 seconds, then using my mixer and drill to force some additional O2 in there. I figured that the 30 seconds would take care of the the majority of o2, but with it being easier to overshoot with oxygen tanks, the mixer will add the smaller amount needed to catch up.

 

[schematix]

My attenuation hasn't changed a bit with LoDO.

I am fermenting in kegs and it's easy to sample since I am pressurized at 3.5 psi.

 

[Edelst0ff]

I came across that one recently in my search for a new mill. If they had a US supplier i would have one on the way already. The craftsmanship on it looks outstanding.

It survived my handling for 4 years now... That says a lot hahahaha.

Try going via Katja. Very down to earth and approachable. Home brews as well so it's easy to relate to.

sales(at)kraushaar-exports.de

 

[schematix]

It survived my handling for 4 years now... That says a lot hahahaha.

Try going via Katja. Very down to earth and approachable. Home brews as well so it's easy to relate to.

sales(at)kraushaar-exports.de

Thanks for the info. I'll see what they can do.

 

[schematix]

Alright putting this thread back on topic (by the way i found out there is going to be a US distributor of MattMill in the next few weeks)...

I've been reading a lot of comments by tech and others that LoDO really accentuates crystal malts, to the point that even a 100% pils beer wouldn't be all that great with LoDO.

Was wondering if there was any thought as to why crystal malts pop more than other standard kilned malts. Also is there any relation to the color of crystal (i.e. carapils vs special B) and the "it" factor"?

 

[rabeb25]

Crystal malts don't have any IT factor. The IT factor comes solely from pale malt (pilsner/pale ale). Think about it as non-oxidized flavors not really accentuating flavors. Chew on the kernels, that will give you a really nice idea of what the flavors will bring to the table. 100% pilsner low oxygen is kind of flabby, it pays to add another pale malt into the mix to amp up the flavor. For instance my pilsner grist is 50% barke pils, 50% weyermann pale ale malt. Perfect color, and perfect flavor.

http://www.********************/uncategorized/basemalt-blending/

Don't forget to check my site for all things relating to low oxygen brewing.

www.********************

 

[Kit_B]

I've been reading a lot of comments by tech and others that LoDO really accentuates crystal malts, to the point that even a 100% pils beer wouldn't be all that great with LoDO.

I'm one of those guys & while I can't speak for all of them, I would tend to somewhat disagree with a portion of this statement.

I think it's kind of obvious that a 100% Pils will be a fairly lame concoction.
So, I agree with that.
But...I believe the point is to go EXTREMELY light on your crystal malts, because they lend too much flavor, in a lodo environment.
The idea is to find a fine balance.

Some guys have found that a nice blend of base malts has basically eliminated their need for crystal malts, in many recipes.
Others want to add some lighter crystal malts, to lend different characteristics.

.....
Ha!
I see Bryan already beat me to the reply.

 

[Bilsch]

Thanks for the info. I'll see what they can do.

With all due respect to our friend from Munich, I have to disagree.

Being of German decent and also a hobby machinist, I totally love the craftsmanship of the German made grain mill. However it is only a two roll mill and no matter how well it's made, will never work as good as a 3 roll mill.
If you want to spend money look at the MM3 pro with the big rollers.
It's simple physics.. all things being equal, crushing in a single pass through a single gap will tear more husk and make more flour. Also single gap mills will not feed as well because the grain has to fit in between a narrower gap first pass.

 

[schematix]

For me the deciding factor will probably be value.

If the MMK is close to the cost of a MM-2 i'd probably go for the MMK. If it's a lot more then i'd probably look to the MM-3.

The MM-3 is going to set me back $400+ with the hopper. I have a bit of a hard on for stainless steel so i'm also tempted to do those add on options, which would put it closer to $500. Lot of coin for a mill.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Off-Topic but look below at a current thread going on about mills. Short version-- I have owned many, and the 3 roller Kegco mill from Beverage Factory for $149 or less, including shipping, is the way to go!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=595027

Back to our regularly scheduled program...

For me the deciding factor will probably be value.

If the MMK is close to the cost of a MM-2 i'd probably go for the MMK. If it's a lot more then i'd probably look to the MM-3.

The MM-3 is going to set me back $400+ with the hopper. I have a bit of a hard on for stainless steel so i'm also tempted to do those add on options, which would put it closer to $500. Lot of coin for a mill.

 

[schematix]

I tried to chase down the MattMill but in the end no one wanted to take my money for one, so I've got an MM-3 Pro on the way.

 

[techbrau]

Alright putting this thread back on topic (by the way i found out there is going to be a US distributor of MattMill in the next few weeks)...

I've been reading a lot of comments by tech and others that LoDO really accentuates crystal malts, to the point that even a 100% pils beer wouldn't be all that great with LoDO.

Was wondering if there was any thought as to why crystal malts pop more than other standard kilned malts. Also is there any relation to the color of crystal (i.e. carapils vs special B) and the "it" factor"?

As my palette has evolved with LoDO brewing I no longer think of a singular "it" flavor. As recently as a year ago I thought Weihenstephaner Original and Ayinger Jahrhundert tasted pretty similar and both had the same "it" flavor, but nowadays they taste like totally different beers to me.

Kind of like a neophyte IPA aficionado who tastes all IPAs as generally "hoppy" evolving into somebody who is able to pick out the distinct and nuanced flavors from each hop variety, after a few low oxygen batches you'll start tasting the unique low oxygen flavor of each different malt.

I prefer to just call it "freshness" instead of "it". Chew on some kernels of malt, that's not quite exactly what its LoDO wort flavor will be but it gives you an idea. Better yet, do a LoDO mini-mash. I find that crystal malts get more intensely flavored in the wort as compared to their raw flavor.

LoDO really just boils down to avoiding damage to the raw ingredients. It's all about preserving their fresh flavors. Once you're brewing on a tight LoDO system, the recipe is all up to you, and there is no "right" or "wrong" way to go about it because the only thing that matters is what tastes good to you.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Being of German decent and also a hobby machinist,

Cheers, but what has nationality got to do with this?

Opinions are opinions. People have different experiences and viewpoints. Since the enlightenment we fought long and hard to ensure we have a society where this is possible.

No need to apologise or water down your experiences.

In the end it's always up to whoever is making the decision to due his/her due diligence and research.

For my part I fail to see the benefit of 3 (unsynchronised) rollers FYI the Matt Mill Klassic's rollers are synchronised.

If one really must mill for higher yield, then we are really looking at a 4 roller setup.

For mere mortals this means adjusting the gaps tighter and milling in a second pass.

I doubt that the 3 roller mill will produce the anticipated result. I also doubt it will provide good value for money.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Also is there any relation to the color of crystal (i.e. carapils vs special B) and the "it" factor"?

Hmmmm, this begs the question... What is the IT factor?

I heard this a lot when people on your side of the Atlantic talk about flavours. It is totally unheard of and not used in Germany or the U.K.

So what is it? It might be a good idea to begin using an increasingly precise vocabulary to describe the rather complex and subtle flavours.

A catch-all like "IT" will never lead towards satisfactory answers and results.

 

[Bassman2003]

The term "it factor" is most commonly used when describing artists or specifically actors who have a certain intangible greatness to their presence or work. It is that something special that sets them apart from other actors that makes you want to concentrate on them when there are other people in the scene etc...

Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Jennifer Lopez have the "It Factor" which is why they are mega stars.

 

[schematix]

I'm in agreement that "IT" is a poor adjective to describe the qualities of the beer we're trying to achieve. You can blame techbrau though - I lifted the phrase from one of his posts on another forum

It's not in any way descriptive of the specific qualities that are different in the beer, but in a general sense it describes something much different than usual, just not what "it" is.

 

[Bilsch]

Cheers, but what has nationality got to do with this?
No need to apologise or water down your experiences.

Nothing except that I appreciate and normally prefer German engineering. However my preference in this case is not based on origin or quality of manufacture but solely on function. If mattmill made a 3 roll mill, one would already be in my garage.

I think you misread my post. There was no apology and If anything I distilled down my experiences with 2 and 3 roll mills. I see no need to get personal. We both offered our opinions based on differing history with the subject. Thats what these forums are about.

 

[schematix]

Anyone ever try a LoDO stout?

This LoDO IPA is unquestionably the best beer I've ever made, and probably one of the top 3 beers I've ever tasted period. I see no reason not to experiment and extend this method to other styles.

 

[TexasWine]

Anyone ever try a LoDO stout?

I have. Just popped it in the keezer a few days ago and pulled the first pint last night. New recipe, so I don't have a direct comparison to anything I've made before.

I think it is really good. However it's hard for me to say it's better than my other stout.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Anyone ever try a LoDO stout?

This LoDO IPA is unquestionably the best beer I've ever made, and probably one of the top 3 beers I've ever tasted period. I see no reason not to experiment and extend this method to other styles.

I imagine that Tree House practices some lodo techniques because their IPAs are through the roof. They do some stouts and they certainly pack a punch. Be careful with roasted malts. Their stouts have too much coffee and roast flavor imo

 

[rabeb25]

Yea low oxygen roast malts are POTENT. So much infact .5% is easily detected. A dunkel with 1% is still to much for me personally.

 

[schematix]

I was thinking about making Yooper's oatmeal stout. I made it HiDO a year ago and it was a session able stout. It uses about 10% roasted malt though. Not sure how you could get the stout color using much less.

What's the flavor difference with roast with LoDO ?

 

[rabeb25]

Super intense for me. I suggest a minimash using various amounts to determine your tolerance/preference. Sinamar is your new friend.

 

[stpug]

All beers I've brewed with low o2 techniques that contain toasted or roasted malts have come out nothing like I've expected - in a not-so-good way. These beers all used ale strains, which compounds the problem with residual sulfur afterwards. I have since stopped using sulfites in these ales with a much more successful (and expected) outcome.

 

[techbrau]

I suggest just adding your roasted malt at mashout or making a cold steeped extract that you add to the boil

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I have a LoDO chocolate RIS on right now that's awesome with nearly 15% roasted malts. I also made a smoked Porter that came out fantastic and was very well received by a lot of people including certified judges and company beer reps. That one had about 10% Fawcett Brown malt and about10% pale chocolate. To me the flavors are cleaner and more discernible. Zero bad experiences with roasted malts here.

 

[mabrungard]

Yea low oxygen roast malts are POTENT. So much infact .5% is easily detected. A dunkel with 1% is still to much for me personally.

Brian, it sounds like you have explored this to some degree. I am aware of the ability to overdose a Dunkel or Schwartz with teeny amounts of roast. But can you expand on LODO effects on roast flavors in typical UK and American styles?

I recently finished an Am Brown that was brewed LODO and the roast components were too intense for a Brown. And this was a recipe that I've brewed many times. I was going to blame the fault on my switch from Muntons choc malt to Briess dark choc malt, but now have to wonder about the LODO effects.

Can you expand on this?

 

[TexasWine]

To add another data point, I used 4.8% roasted on my chocolate Stout.

 

[rabeb25]

Brian, it sounds like you have explored this to some degree. I am aware of the ability to overdose a Dunkel or Schwartz with teeny amounts of roast. But can you expand on LODO effects on roast flavors in typical UK and American styles?

I recently finished an Am Brown that was brewed LODO and the roast components were too intense for a Brown. And this was a recipe that I've brewed many times. I was going to blame the fault on my switch from Muntons choc malt to Briess dark choc malt, but now have to wonder about the LODO effects.

Can you expand on this?

Sadly all of my exploration has been with those german styles. I have found it to be very intense for me. I am not a coffee drinker, so those types of flavors are very noticeable for me.

 

[TexasWine]

Had a thought. Has anything tried just heating your water to strike temp and adding one of the metabisulphites to see if DO can be eliminated and mitigated without pre boiling?

 

[rabeb25]

Had a thought. Has anything tried just heating your water to strike temp and adding one of the metabisulphites to see if DO can be eliminated and mitigated without pre boiling?

Yes. Your dosage will have to be off the charts high. I think it was like 300ppm or something.

 

[TexasWine]

Yes. Your dosage will have to be off the charts high. I think it was like 300ppm or something.

Appreciate you chiming in on this! Glad to know y’all tried it.

I’m trying and make sense of how the 300 ppm number was arrived at. The solubility of oxygen in water at 65C is about 4.5 ppm. I’m not entirely clear on the reaction of NaMeta with oxygen, but per section 2.4 of the low DO guideline, it takes approximately 5 ppm sulfite to scavenge 1 ppm oxygen. That means I would need to add 5 x 4.5 = 22.5 ppm of sulfite to take care of the initial oxygen. Then, per section 2, doughing in adds between 1 and 3 ppm dissolved oxygen. That’ll add anoter 5 x 3 = 15 ppm sulfite. Total is 37.5 ppm sulfite required to this point.

Now, let’s just assume that after treating your water for oxygen and doughing in you want to maintain the recommended no sparge concentration of 55 ppm. That would bring the total to 55 + 37.5 = 92.5 ppm.

92.5 ppm is a far cry from 300 ppm, but I accept that it’s entirely possible I’m overlooking something. Are there other reactions that are consuming the NaMeta that I’m not taking into consideration?

 

[rabeb25]

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


Tech added 130ppm, and it was not enough.. I think.

 

[TexasWine]

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=353


Tech added 130ppm, and it was not enough.. I think.

Good read. I’d be curious to repeat the linked experiment with a cover on the water, replicating a mash cap. Doing so would hopefully allow us to prove the theory of the sulfite not being able to keep up with O2 ingress. A little plastic wrap should do the trick. I’ve got a DO meter on my Christmas list. Hopefully I’ve been a good boy.

One other thing about the experiment. If you refer to published literature on the solubility of oxygen in water, it’s about 6 mg/l at 115°F. In order to get to the 8 mg/l shown in the pictures of the experiment you’d need to chill the water to about 77°F. This is, of course, at atmospheric pressure. I’m assuming the DO readings shown above weren’t taken in a submarine

Also, any of you fine fellas that own a DO meter, and utilize the pre-boil +chill method, measure your DO concentration at the moment just before dough in? If so, what is it? It seems that method of deaeration would suffer from the same diffusion rate issue as this experiment has potentially proven.

 

[techbrau]

Heating doesn't immediately force DO out. It takes time. That's why you can dissolve more than 8 ppm into wort using a pure o2 wand. Of course if it's not rapidly taken up by yeast, even if you dissolve 20 ppm oxygen into your wort it will gradually evaporate out into the atmosphere until equilibrium is reached.

That's why even though the solubility is 4-5 ppm at mash temps, I have a feeling in practice the actual level is higher for most people when they dough in. Probably 6-10 ppm. My tap water measures 12 ppm out of the faucet.

The little experiment I did doesn't scale perfectly to a 5 gallon system. The couple liters of water I used had a higher SA:V ratio than my normal mash does so ingress will be faster. And of course a mash cap would help like you say. It may be possible to get away with sulfite only for degassing, but I don't know for certain. I like the certainty of preboiling, and I also like how it enables me to keep my no-sparge SMB dose in the 30-40 mg/l range.