Interesting German Brewing PDF

[Magnus314]

Where do you buy Brewtan B? I'd like to try some.

And i'll have to look up Cinnamon Verum.

 

[enkamania]

Where do you buy Brewtan B? I'd like to try some.

And i'll have to look up Cinnamon Verum.

I got mine from Australia http://www.ibrew.com.au/products/brewtan-b

 

[Bilsch]

Interesting experiment with brewtan b.

http://forum.germanbrewing.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=531

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I was just reading that last night. It's pretty interesting that whenever they test a LODO mash vs something else you can always tell the difference based on appearance alone. I guess that's not a surprise since staling reactions darken the beer but it's cool the difference is that distinguishable to the eye.

 

[Magnus314]

My LoDO beers are basically see through they're so light and clear.

It's one of the main reasons I decided to work through all the changes in my system - I could SEE that something was significantly different even before the beer was done.

 

[popquizkid]

So did my first LODO ish brew.

Made an altbier and did no sparge. This is what I did:

1. Added yeast / dextrose to water 2 hours before brew
2. Heated water and added SMB (50g / l) added 5.5 g CaCL
2. Conditioned malt and milled into mash cooler
3. Underlet water into cooler and lightly stirred
4. Mashed 70 minutes
5. Drained to kettle
6. Very gentle 90 minute boil (whirfloc added in last 10)

There was a large amount "stuff" floating in the in the wort. Want to say it was sort of flaky, but not sure how to describe it (should have taken a pitcure). Interesting enough it did not all settle to bottom after chilling - wort still had lots of stuff floating in it when I took my gravity reading before transfer to the fermenter.

Never seen this in a brew before. Any ideas?

 

[storunner13]

Hopefully you only added 50 milligrams per liter instead of 50 grams.

Your experience with the hot break in the boil is similar to what I and others have experienced.

 

[TheHairyHop]

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2016/10/low-dissolved-oxygen-do-brewing-lager.html

 

[popquizkid]

Hopefully you only added 50 milligrams per liter instead of 50 grams.

Your experience with the hot break in the boil is similar to what I and others have experienced.

haha yeah - it was 50 mg / l.

Interesting on the hot break - I wonder what it is and why this occurs with LODO? It looks like coagulated proteins or something like that. There is still some floating in the fermenter (since it floats I could not leave it behind).

 

[storunner13]

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2016/10/low-dissolved-oxygen-do-brewing-lager.html

I see Bryan has weighed in. The gloves are already off.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I see Bryan has weighed in. The gloves are already off.

correct me if I'm wrong, but the only topic that brings remotely the same amount of passion to the table is the NEIPA. man, those threads turn into cluster reeaalll quick

 

[Kit_B]

I see Bryan has weighed in. The gloves are already off.

I don't know why, but I am always shocked that folks want to blog about their inability to follow instructions, only to conclude that our method is too complicated or that it doesn't work.

There is nothing complex, in our method...Honestly.
In fact...I don't use a mash cap.
My $250 DO meter rarely gets used, anymore.
By preboiling, using an oxygen scavenger, underletting with a pump, forced co2 transfers to vessels purged of o2 & spunding, you'll likely get the vast majority of what you're after.
It's a lot easier than you think & the results are SO worth the small amount of effort.

Also...
In Mike's replies to Bryan, he touches on one item that we should all keep in mind:
If treated nicely, the second generation of yeast is better than the first.

 

[storunner13]

It frustrates me that new attempts are often compared directly to the recipe outlined in the treatise. While each step is based on sound brewing science, not all are essential to retaining the malt flavor in the final beer.

Mediocre (or worse) results using Low DO processes does not indicate that the brewer used incorrect processes resulting in dissolved oxygen, or that the poor results were due to the Low DO method itself. Lacking malt depth, or bitterness issues could be due to the recipe. In Mike's instance, the mediocre results are likely the high SMB dosage and poor yeast health.

Low DO brewing can be used to both recreate perfect Bavarian lagers, and bring more malt flavor to your beers. While the initial goal was to attain the former, others are targeting the latter using the same methods, possibly without a classically Bavarian recipe or fermentation schedule.

 

[Kit_B]

It frustrates me that new attempts are often compared directly to the recipe outlined in the treatise. While each step is based on sound brewing science, not all are essential to retaining the malt flavor in the final beer.

That's a fair statement.

Mediocre (or worse) results using Low DO processes does not indicate that the brewer used incorrect processes resulting in dissolved oxygen, or that the poor results were due to the Low DO method itself. Lacking malt depth, or bitterness issues could be due to the recipe. In Mike's instance, the mediocre results are likely the high SMB dosage and poor yeast health.

Indeed.
With the experience some of us have in lodo brewing, we just see the problematic items as glaring beacons & want to shout "No...No...Please, don't do it this way", because we understand that the brewer will be incredibly unhappy with the outcome.
In this instance, the use of only a Barke Pilsner base malt mashed at 152*F, added with the use of saphir at only FWH & a first generation of 34/70 yeast is going to give results that lack depth & create a beer that I would personally dump.

 

[schematix]

About a week ago i put my 3rd LoDO helles keg on tap. The end of the 2nd keg lost the sweet grain flavor and had taken on the same white wine flavor that the 1st keg did. The first several days of pulling glasses off the 3rd keg was quite nice. The sweet grain flavor was intense and delicious... but a week later hooked to my co2 and that flavor is gone already.

The guy at the LHBS says his gas is food grade and comes from the same place everyone else gets their CO2 (which doesn't say much about oxygen content, just that its free of things like hydrocarbons).

I'm scared to let my LoDO IPA anywhere near this CO2 cylinder but i'm not sure what my other options are at this point.

 

[Edelst0ff]

Not a lot to go on with... Can you provide a bit more info? Ferment temps, temperature deltas over time, age?

 

[Bilsch]

The guy at the LHBS says his gas is food grade and comes from the same place everyone else gets their CO2

Sorry to hear about your helles. No other commercial gas suppliers in town? Maybe your guy is selling paintball trash gas grade.
Buying a larger bottle usually gives you an in at the bulk suppliers. The minimum size here for that is 20lb bottle that cost ~$120 and fills are $22. You could always pony up and buy instrument or reagent grade.

 

[TheHairyHop]

A good test would be to keg the beer without the serving CO2, wait for the duration that it would normally stale at and see if it undergoes that same changes. Of course, it's not a full simulation with increasing headspace, but you could make that happen.

 

[schematix]

I made the Helles in early July (about 3.5 months ago). I made about 13.5G split across 3 kegs.

I fermented in 3 corny kegs - each keg had about 4.5G. There were another 3 "serving" kegs. The gas port of the fermenting keg was connected to the liquid port of the serving keg. A spund valve was connected to the gas port of the serving keg. The beer was fermented under about 3psi of pressure. The serving kegs all have shortened "flush" gas dip tubes and were water purged using my regular CO2 was used to push the gas out.

It was fermented at 50F, with temps slowly decreasing down to 46F. It was racked with ~5 SG points remaining. All transfer lines were purged with the serving tank gas prior to transfer. Transfer was done closed loop by placing fermentation kegs above serving kegs, connecting the liquid ports, then burping the serving keg to initiate a siphon. Gas lines were then connected. The beer was then held another week at 46F until SG was reached, at which point i started to drop 2F per day until reaching 37F. It has been stored continuously at 37F since then.

All 3 kegs have had the bright sweet grain flavor in the first few glasses. At about the week mark is when it starts to degrade.

I had a discussion with the LHBS owner about his CO2 supply. He gets it from Airgas in 75lb siphon tanks. The tanks had a sticker on them that said food grade (I watched him fill my last 2 cylinders recently). He seemed to be very familiar with the CO2 supply chain in the area since he is a chemical engineer in the ethanol industry (LHBS is a side gig).

My hunch is that the CO2 isn't that pure with respect to oxygen because the 3rd keg even at 3 months still tasted perfectly fresh when first tapped. I hit it hard for several days before i started to notice the flavor fading. I'm not sure how i could quantitatively test the oxygen content of the CO2 though.

 

[rabeb25]

If you had a DO meter you could test your beer in the keg, if it is fading in a few days you are probably at or above .1. I would put money it being your co2.

 

[Bassman2003]

I am considering using a bit of lager yeast in every keg to have some sort of oxygen scrubbing going on. Maybe that would help with the CO2 bring O2 in the mix?

Sort of like bottle conditioning but with a keg.

 

[schematix]

For sake of discussion, let's assume my CO2 is <99.9% pure, what could be done to protect the beer? More sulfites? Will the DO content of the beer keep rising the longer its connect to the gas tank?

 

[schematix]

I am considering using a bit of lager yeast in every keg to have some sort of oxygen scrubbing going on. Maybe that would help with the CO2 bring O2 in the mix?

Sort of like bottle conditioning but with a keg.

Yeast only scavenge during active fermentation. So you'd have to have fermentable sugars for it to consume. So i'd say this idea isn't practical.

 

[Bassman2003]

Well, I guess a little sugar would be needed like the bottling process. Seems easy enough.

 

[rabeb25]

For sake of discussion, let's assume my CO2 is <99.9% pure, what could be done to protect the beer? More sulfites? Will the DO content of the beer keep rising the longer its connect to the gas tank?

Try to use a more sulfury German lager strain(never saw what you used) and ferment colder to trap the sulfur.

 

[schematix]

Try to use a more sulfury German lager strain(never saw what you used) and ferment colder to trap the sulfur.

I made the Helles with 2035 (gasp - i know it wasn't what the pdf called for, but it's what i had).... and it was sulfury as hell. Stunk like rotten eggs for a month.

I am going to use 835 for my next several brews. Do you consider this to be a sulfury strain?

 

[rabeb25]

I have never used 835, so I can't comment.

 

[PlinyTheMiddleAged]

So, here's a crazy idea for those that are thinking that CO2 purity may be causing their kegged beers to stale. What if you loaded a canister with oxygen scavenging packets (the food safe kind used for long term storage) and then flowed the CO2 through the canister on its way to the keg?

Here's a link to the O2 absorbers - it's basically instant rust; you add the O2.

Oxy-Sorb Oxygen Absorbers for Food Storage, 100cc, 100-Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0028AG8RO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Thoughts?

 

[Magnus314]

It's easy enough to natural carb in the keg with added sugars or malt extract, but i have never gotten a clear lager this way, even with extended lagering after carbing.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I think that carbing is less of an issue than serving is. is it possible to put a a gallon or two of wort in a keg with yeast and spunding valve set to a high psi, and then use the resulting gas to serve?

 

[schematix]

So, here's a crazy idea for those that are thinking that CO2 purity may be causing their kegged beers to stale. What if you loaded a canister with oxygen scavenging packets (the food safe kind used for long term storage) and then flowed the CO2 through the canister on its way to the keg?

Here's a link to the O2 absorbers - it's basically instant rust; you add the O2.

Oxy-Sorb Oxygen Absorbers for Food Storage, 100cc, 100-Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0028AG8RO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Thoughts?

I don't think the concept here is crazy at all. The question to me is whether or not there is an effective and cost efficient product that can do this. I could definitely envision packing a canister full of whatever compound is in those packets (or whatever else) and putting it inline with the co2 stream. Hopefully more info to come on this idea.

 

[schematix]

I think that carbing is less of an issue than serving is. is it possible to put a a gallon or two of wort in a keg with yeast and spunding valve set to a high psi, and then use the resulting gas to serve?

Agree - it's easy to carbonate and keep the keg LODO... it's the introduction of external (non-pure) CO2 that is the issue.

I thought about exactly the situation that you describe but i think to capture a sufficient volume of gas would require a lot of pressure, and probably more than the yeast would be able to handle (>50 psi). I think you could probably spund to like 40 psi and then regulate down, but that keg couldn't be chilled and even though you might get to push 1 or two kegs with it. That's a lot of extra kegs hanging around just for serving gas.

 

[rabeb25]

Can you source somewhere else? I have no problems with my co2 (I get mine from a local gas supplier).

 

[schematix]

Can you source somewhere else? I have no problems with my co2 (I get mine from a local gas supplier).

I could, but how would I know it's not from the same root source that I'm already getting?

 

[Bassman2003]

It's easy enough to natural carb in the keg with added sugars or malt extract, but i have never gotten a clear lager this way, even with extended lagering after carbing.

Good point as the keg is the final stage. Tough problem at the homebrew level.

 

[techbrau]

With the right yeast and fermentation schedule you can get clear lager via spunding. The trick is to choose a strain that attenuates well and then flocculates nicely once the sugar is all gone. Wlp835 and WY2206 are good choices.

It's also a good idea to carry as little yeast as possible into the lagering keg. I ferment at 48-50F nowadays until I have about 2% fermentable extract left. Then I drop by 1-2 f per day until I hit about 45f and there's 1% fermentable extract left. The temp drop will knock a lot of yeast out of suspension and you can rack relatively clear beer into the lager keg. Let the remaining yeast in the lager keg ferment to FG with a spunding valve attached (you'll need slightly higher pressure than 0.8 bar at 45 f) then move to a keezer at 38-42f. You should have clear beer in another 2ish weeks, putting the whole process 4-5 weeks grain to glass.

 

[Bilsch]

I'm not sure how i could quantitatively test the oxygen content of the CO2 though.

This what I would do if you had a DO meter. Prepare via boiling a 5 gal batch of DO water. When cool enough ~180f gently transfer to purged keg. Seal, purge again and seat the cap with a few pounds CO2. Cool keg to room temp and afix a picnic tap. Run a sample out and test for DO content. Record this value. Now chill keg to just above freezing and force carbonate it. Then along the way pull more samples looking for the uptake in O2 if any.

 

[Edelst0ff]

The beer was then held another week at 46F until SG was reached, at which point i started to drop 2F per day until reaching 37F.

Reading this reminds me of my bad experiences where I dropped the temperature too fast during the conditioning phase. There is a high likelihood of thermal shock on the now fragile yeast.

My experience was that it eventually recovered, but then I use a strain that produces a lot of Sulphur: Wissenschaftliche Station 838 (for e.g. WLP 838)

Going on a witch-hunt with CO2 may be futile and time-consuming. Maybe a more careful secondary fermentation would be the remedy?

I cannot guarantee it, but it is something to look into and far less labour intensive than chasing CO2 supplies. (FYI you could consider a 60/40 mix instead of pure CO2 - which is how good pubs push lager out).

Attached are a picture with a sample conditioning schedule from Narziss, Abriss der Bierbrauerei, where you can see the very slow temperature as the beer matures.

The other is how Augustiner serves the Oktoberfest bier from the old barrels with Bavarian "Anstich" (tap?). No gas involved - but then the barrel is emptied the same day.

In my online notes there is is also a example
of the conditioning schedule which illustrates the gradual slow drop.

Hope this helps you with your woes.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Someone did all the math on this ITT within the last couple months based on the purity that's reported from the supplier IIRC. I believe the conclusion was force carbing could possibly raise levels over the proposed threshold.
However at the temperature the beer is at during that phase those reactions should take longer than a week. I don't have it at the moment but there's been info from studies posted covering the time it takes for the beer to get oxidized at different temps. You have a bit of a grace period but I think when that clock starts depends when you surpass certain levels. Either way something here isn't clicking to me.

 

[schematix]

I cannot guarantee it, but it is something to look into and far less labour intensive than chasing CO2 supplies. (FYI you could consider a 60/40 mix instead of pure CO2 - which is how good pubs push lager out).

Is there something about a 60/40 blend that is inherently more pure than standard CO2?