Installing wall sockets for two 5500W heating elements

[nicmac888]

Hi guys,

Okay, so I will quickly start by saying that I know the obvious answer to my question would be "Call an electrician; dealing with electricity is serious business". I have limited knowledge of house wiring and such, and my plan is not to start playing with wires and make stupid things.
However, I am very interested in learning throughout this brewing journey, and so I'd like to kinda know what to expect regarding the amount of work needed from an electrician and also getting some parts in advance.

So, on to the question.
I basically just bought two 5500W heating elements for my brew rig, both with NEMA 10 30R plugs as such:

Those are 3-prong dryer outlets and I will order wall sockets that fit.

Now those sockets are non-existent at the moment, so I assume they will need to be powered by my main electrical panel.
So basically, I will have two 240V cables (10-3), because i need one for each element, that run from panel to the wall box with the sockets, right?
Now in this electrical panel, each 10-3 cable needs to have its own 240V breaker? How about the amperage of such breakers? Since my elements are 5500W and they require 240V, it would amount to 22.92A (because P = U*I and science), so do I use 30A breakers?

Now how about I want to insert a switch somewhere, to control those heating elements without plugging and unplugging them during brewing?
It is my understanding that each circuit would need a "240V-rated 2-pole switch". Also rated 30Amps?

Would I then need anything else?

I don't know if this makes any sense. I did some research but I am not sure if I am either starting to understand, or if I'm completely going off-track with this.

Thanks a lot!
Nico

 

[Brettomomyces]

I would strongly suggest building a separate panel as opposed to wall sockets for those. You need some way to control the power output to those elements, because running full blast will be way too much. I built a panel from instructions at www.theelectricbrewery.com, and while you don't need to go as fancy/elaborate as Kal's setup, you will learn a lot by reading his instructions.

 

[nicmac888]

Thanks for the reply!
Well I have to be honest, getting a separate panel (and then controlling, possibly automating everything) is a plan for the future. I just don't really have the money to spend right away.

So now this brings my next question: How do heating elements work regarding power consumption?
I guess I kind of pictured them in my mind as incandescent light bulbs that, while they can be adjusted with a dimmer, can also go full power without much trouble, and that I would just - for now - regulate the temperature manually by turning them on and off.

Is this completely erroneous or would that work (even if it's definitely not optimal)?

 

[nicmac888]

Thanks for the reply!
Well, this is actually what I wanted to do in the long run. I currently do not really have the means to go all-out on this, so I though I'd keep it to a minimum for the time being. However, a more controlled (and possibly automated) setup would definitely be the dream.

I guess this brings me to another question; how do heating elements work regarding power consumption?
I guess I kinda pictured them as incandescent light bulbs in the sense that they can be controlled by a dimmer, but that they could also just run full power and be switched on and off. Is that realistic or will that overload my circuit/do other bad things?

I understand it'll probably be a bit of a PITA to control the temperature by flicking a switch, but is that technically feasible for the time beaing or do I need some kind of regulator right away?

 

[Brettomomyces]

Thanks for the reply!
Well, this is actually what I wanted to do in the long run. I currently do not really have the means to go all-out on this, so I though I'd keep it to a minimum for the time being. However, a more controlled (and possibly automated) setup would definitely be the dream.

I guess this brings me to another question; how do heating elements work regarding power consumption?
I guess I kinda pictured them as incandescent light bulbs in the sense that they can be controlled by a dimmer, but that they could also just run full power and be switched on and off. Is that realistic or will that overload my circuit/do other bad things?

I understand it'll probably be a bit of a PITA to control the temperature by flicking a switch, but is that technically feasible for the time beaing or do I need some kind of regulator right away?

A PID controller will do exactly that, control them as either a dimmer as a percentage duty cycle or full on. You can dial in the temps extremely close with autotuning, and just turn on/off at will.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

 

[nicmac888]

Well, this is exactly what I want, except that buying this unit + an SSR + thermocouplers + etc. will be a couple hundred bucks more expensive than what I can budget right now

 

[watermelon83]

Running these elements off the wall socket is a really bad idea. Everytime you pulg and unplug them you'll be drawing full current. Look up arc flash injury, I bet you'll be willing to wait until you afford the control.

 

[nicmac888]

Everytime you pulg and unplug them you'll be drawing full current.

What would that full current be? 22.92Amps or like, up to 30 in a random fashion? How about reducing the breaker amperage.. would that just make the breaker jump every time?

Can anyone explain how a heating element draws current?

If a regulator is required, is there any way you can help me find a simple analog one (akin to a light dimmer, but for higher currents)?

Look up arc flash injury, I bet you'll be willing to wait until you afford the control.

Looked it up; still searching for a temporary, cheaper solution.

 

[watermelon83]

What would that full current be? 22.92Amps or like, up to 30 in a random fashion? How about reducing the breaker amperage.. would that just make the breaker jump every time? Yes

Can anyone explain how a heating element draws current? The element material is a high resistance, the force it takes to push the electrons through the material create the amperage and heat.

If a regulator is required, is there any way you can help me find a simple analog one (akin to a light dimmer, but for higher currents)?

This, one of these for each element, and one of these gets you going safely and in cost effective manner.

Looked it up; still searching for a temporary, cheaper solution.

Auber has the wiring diagram for wiring two ssr's in parallel, if you want to control each element seperately you'll need a simple low voltage switch on the controller output to operate one ssr or the other.

 

[dyqik]

The StillDragon controller kit will give you the ability to reduce the power to the elements using an SSVR controlled by a simple pot. At $40 for the kit, it shouldn't break the bank. You'd want to add a contactor or rated switch to switch the element on and off, plus a GFCI breaker for the circuit. That would at least get you going with one element, which is enough to brew with to start with.

As ever, you will need to pay more if you aren't confident that you can build these parts yourself.

 

[augiedoggy]

If you are on an extreme budget build or want to keep it very simple to wire up I suggest these I just purschased a set myself for another build... basically $18 shipped and you will have total control of the boil just like with a knob on a stovetop. the stilldragon kit above is also an excellent choice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/140553987088?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[augiedoggy]

Well, this is exactly what I want, except that buying this unit + an SSR + thermocouplers + etc. will be a couple hundred bucks more expensive than what I can budget right now

Not true at all if you avoid buying them form places with high markups...
You can purchase a mypin td4 pid with manual mode,ssr, pt100sensor,and heat sink for under $30 shipped for everything from ebay... I did this myself when building my sub $300 panel below. You can use less expensive military style connectors still rated for 25a like these to save more $ and space since they are half the size.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321514587280?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[GHBWNY]

...I know the obvious answer to my question would be "Call an electrician; dealing with electricity is serious business".

Maybe you want to reconsider this. Whatever the expense, it's worth doing right and so nobody gets zapped/killed.

 

[Hello]

What would that full current be? 22.92Amps or like, up to 30 in a random fashion? How about reducing the breaker amperage.. would that just make the breaker jump every time?

Can anyone explain how a heating element draws current?

If a regulator is required, is there any way you can help me find a simple analog one (akin to a light dimmer, but for higher currents)?


Looked it up; still searching for a temporary, cheaper solution.

I believe heating elements draw current kind of like a toaster or anything else with a heating elements. So the current is drawn from the charge and the current is basically just the movement of electrons (?) through the wire. I believe the force is what causes the heat to be produced. If you plug in a 5500w heating element into an outlet then like others mentioned, you'll draw full power, which is under 30A. If you want to run two side by side at full power, your electrical panel needs to be able to handle that draw.

I'm not well versed in this and hopefully what I am trying to explain is right, but I will tell you that you first need to find out if your panel can handle two 240v 30a breakers. I couldn't effectively explain how to figure that out so I am hiring an electrician to install a 50a breaker with a single outlet.

The heating elements will be plugged into the control panel. One element will sit in the HLT, which must be controlled in such a way that I can reduce power as I don't need full throttle on that one. I am going to use a PID. The second element will go into my BK which sometimes people with control panels simply use a infinite dial as you don't technically need to bother with a PID. I am going to use a PID but it is preference and not necessary.

So what you're more or less looking for is an infinite dial, which I believe was linked above. You do not want to simply plug that 5500w element into the wall and let er rip.

You can absolutely have an electric brewery without the automation. That's really what you're looking for and the Still Dragon linked above is perfect for this. If you're unsure about the wiring then yes, you'll pay a bit more for pre-fabercated control panels.

Brumatic is building my panel now. The cost has actually come out less than a DIY from The Electric Brewery and that includes two 5500w heating elements pre-fabercated. The cost is well out of your noted budget and I get that, but I highly recommend e-mailing them (he is a member here as well) and ask him about building a controller that doesn't have all of the automation but keeping it all set up for the eventual upgrade so you're not buying a new box. This may not be possible and you may need a smaller box, but you just have to ask and that is the easy part. In spite of the price tag on my controller and elements, I am still well under the originally assumed budget, which is good because the electrician is working out to be more than I anticipated because I had to go and over-complicate things by wanting a shed too.

If you want to run two 5500w elements together then your outlet will need to be 50a. My electrician will install a 20v 50a dedicated circuit which includes the outlet and of course the romex and breaker. I don't mess with that stuff even if I think I can and in the end, I bet I could do it but I'd feel more comfortable skipping a few nights out on the town and spending the cash having someone else do it.


Sorry for the wall of text.

 

[Maxkling]

Can anyone explain how a heating element draws current?

Your question was kinda answered incorrect...

The heating element is acutally pretty low resistance, not high resistance. The lower the resistance the faster the electrons travel through the load and pull more amperage and result in more heat. A 240V 5500Watt element is around 10.5 Ohms and a 240V 3000Watt element is around 19.2 Ohms. So you can see the lower the resistance the more amperage and higher heat produced by the faster moving electrons. That is why a "short" is so dangerous, there is nothing stopping the flow and will melt and burn the wire.

I can't believe only one person has brought up the GFI issue. There is no cheap route, if you want to just install outlets and no panel then you will need 2 GFI 2 pole breakers for your breaker panel, and that alone will cost you close to 200$ or more just on the breakers. Then 40$ on the outlets, depending how far the run is 50$ on wire, and probably around 250$ for the electrician, and if hes a good electrician hes going to want to pull a permit which will be another $10-$100 depending on your location and total cost of work being performed.

 

[Dog House Brew]

Not true at all if you avoid buying them form places with high markups...
You can purchase a mypin td4 pid with manual mode,ssr, pt100sensor,and heat sink for under $30 shipped for everything from ebay... I did this myself when building my sub $300 panel below. You can use less expensive military style connectors still rated for 25a like these to save more $ and space since they are half the size.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321514587280?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I like your controller. Doesn't have to break the bank to be effective.

 

[IslandLizard]

Your question was kinda answered incorrect...

The heating element is acutally pretty low resistance, not high resistance. The lower the resistance the faster the electrons travel through the load and pull more amperage and result in more heat. A 240V 5500Watt element is around 10.5 Ohms and a 240V 3000Watt element is around 19.2 Ohms. So you can see the lower the resistance the more amperage and higher heat produced by the faster moving electrons. That is why a "short" is so dangerous, there is nothing stopping the flow and will melt and burn the wire.

I can't believe only one person has brought up the GFI issue. There is no cheap route, if you want to just install outlets and no panel then you will need 2 GFI 2 pole breakers for your breaker panel, and that alone will cost you close to 200$ or more just on the breakers. Then 40$ on the outlets, depending how far the run is 50$ on wire, and probably around 250$ for the electrician, and if hes a good electrician hes going to want to pull a permit which will be another $10-$100 depending on your location and total cost of work being performed.

Excellent observation and a good synopsis!

The exorbitant cost of GFCI panel breakers ($100-200 each) is why putting in a $60-80 Spa panel (50 or 60 Amp) is way more efficient. Yes, you still need a 50/60 Amp breaker in the main panel ($20-30) and a wire to the Spa panel ($20-200, depending on the distance), but then you'll have GFCI protection from the Spa Panel on to put in your "switches" or controller.

By the time you add in your electrician's fees, and permits if so needed, this endeavor will become a small capital investment. Good luck finding an electrician to come over for a $250 job + materials, small jobs don't take priority, unless you know someone who wants to do it on the side during a weekend for cash.

 

[z-bob]

If you want to run two 5500w elements together then your outlet will need to be 50a. My electrician will install a 20v 50a dedicated circuit which includes the outlet and of course the romex and breaker. I don't mess with that stuff even if I think I can and in the end, I bet I could do it but I'd feel more comfortable skipping a few nights out on the town and spending the cash having someone else do it.

Actually, I think if you want to run two 5500W heating elements at full power, you'll need a 60A circuit. Resistance heating loads are supposed to be rated at 80% capacity. (I'm not sure I worded that right) That's why there are no 6500W water heater elements; a 30A circuit is assumed.

(5500W / 230V) * 1.20 = 28.7 amps.

 

[dyqik]

Actually, I think if you want to run two 5500W heating elements at full power, you'll need a 60A circuit. Resistance heating loads are supposed to be rated at 80% capacity. (I'm not sure I worded that right) That's why there are no 6500W water heater elements; a 30A circuit is assumed.

(5500W / 230V) * 1.20 = 28.7 amps.

The 80% capacity rule is for running longer than 3 hours. Possible with a domestic water heater, but unlikely with an HLT and Kettle together in a normal brewing application, even with back-to-back brews.

 

[IslandLizard]

Actually, I think if you want to run two 5500W heating elements at full power, you'll need a 60A circuit. Resistance heating loads are supposed to be rated at 80% capacity. [...]

That 80% rule is for continuous loads lasting 3 hour or more, IIRC. We brewers don't quite go that long, firing both elements.

If you have 2 5500W elements, 11000 Watts / 240V = ~46A. So a 50 Amp circuit should be OK, but I agree 60A builds in a cushy safety margin.

 

[augiedoggy]

Actually, I think if you want to run two 5500W heating elements at full power, you'll need a 60A circuit. Resistance heating loads are supposed to be rated at 80% capacity. (I'm not sure I worded that right) That's why there are no 6500W water heater elements; a 30A circuit is assumed.

(5500W / 230V) * 1.20 = 28.7 amps.

I see this misinterpretation quoted and used all to often here like others stated this is for a hardwired permanent application where a device is drawing 100% of its rated amperage for over 3 hours continuously where in a brewing application its more likely 30 minutes or less at 100%.
And I Want to add that in reality it depends on whatever voltage is at the elements disposal... my voltage goes from 237 to 243v depending on whatever else is running in my house.... my 4500w elements draw between 17.4 and 19 amp depending on which one im using and voltage im assuming...
most 5500w elements draw close to 23a max at 240v this is measured and checked with my volt/amp meter and fluke multimeter... they are almost always rated at a higher wattage than they actually draw.
I have seen 6000w and 6500w elements but I dont remember their intended applications.

 

[z-bob]

I see this misinterpretation quoted and used all to often here like others stated this is for a hardwired permanent application where a device is drawing 100% of its rated amperage for over 3 hours continuously where in a brewing application its more likely 30 minutes or less at 100%.

All the time? I thought I was bringing something new to the table You're right about the 3 hours, so the derating doesn't really apply here. Sorry about that. 50A is fine, but there's no headroom.

I'm not so sure about the "hardwired permanent installation" part (which is moot because of the 3 hours thing) because the wiring in the wall between the breaker and the receptacle is permanent. The cord from the receptacle to the load does not have to be derated, just don't be stupid about it, running marginally-sized wires for hours at a time while covered with dried straw and leaves.
ETA: My code book is 20 years old, and not handy, so I can't look up the permanent installation rules right now.

 

[augiedoggy]

All the time? I thought I was bringing something new to the table You're right about the 3 hours, so the derating doesn't really apply here. Sorry about that. 50A is fine, but there's no headroom.

I'm not so sure about the "hardwired permanent installation" part (which is moot because of the 3 hours thing) because the wiring in the wall between the breaker and the receptacle is permanent. The cord from the receptacle to the load does not have to be derated, just don't be stupid about it, running marginally-sized wires for hours at a time while covered with dried straw and leaves.
ETA: My code book is 20 years old, and not handy, so I can't look up the permanent installation rules right now.

yeah your right... I'm thinking of a recent debate I had because I used 600v 25a rated soow between my 4500w elements and my panel where others strongly feel 30a cable is needed... I feel its overkill especially for a 6ft cable length (even if I had used 5500w elements)

 

[Hello]

Actually, I think if you want to run two 5500W heating elements at full power, you'll need a 60A circuit. Resistance heating loads are supposed to be rated at 80% capacity. (I'm not sure I worded that right) That's why there are no 6500W water heater elements; a 30A circuit is assumed.

(5500W / 230V) * 1.20 = 28.7 amps.

The 80% capacity rule is for running longer than 3 hours. Possible with a domestic water heater, but unlikely with an HLT and Kettle together in a normal brewing application, even with back-to-back brews.

Interesting. I had not even stumbled on that information myself. I did inform the electrician that I was going to run two 5500 watt elements at the same time, they said 50a was fine. I also told them it was for brewing and whether they know what that entails or not is beyond me. I will confirm before the work is scheduled that 50a is perfect and 60a isn't necessary. I am nearly out of room in my panel. The 120v I am having installed at the same time will pretty much be the last I can add. I will likely remove the 20a NEMA from the kitchen though, which frees up space.

I didn't mean to hijack a thread but thanks for the info guys.

 

[z-bob]

If you're at all concerned about it, just make sure the electrician uses 60A wire or cable up to the outlet. The stuff he's using for 50A is probably rated for 60A anyway, but it might not be. (8 gauge copper THHN, for example) http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/nec ampacities.pdf
You can still use 50A breakers, plugs, outlets, flexible cord, etc.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Well, this is exactly what I want, except that buying this unit + an SSR + thermocouplers + etc. will be a couple hundred bucks more expensive than what I can budget right now

Then wait until you have the money. You'll just be throwing money away due to your impatience.

 

[thekraken]

Look up arc flash injury

Wish I hadn't done that!

 

[Swab]

You're going to spend quite a lot of money to have 2 30a 240v runs, one of which will be redundant when you upgrade to a panel. Might as redirect the money for the 2nd run to a panel. Probably not much cost difference, if you do then panel cheaply.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Don't forget the GFCI breaker. For the PID, SSR and heat sink and sensor you are at maybe $60.00 - plugging and unplugging is a royal pain and you don't need two circuits for the elements. I would rethink this if your paying an electrician.

 

[processhead]

Are you certain you will need to operate both elements at the same time in your brewing application?

If you can live with only one element on at a time, it greatly simplifies the complexity/cost for your panel, and the circuit feeding it.

I have a similar brewing arrangement, but chose to build it where I only operate one element at a time, i.e. heating strike water OR heating the BK, but never at the same time.

I have to physically unplug one kettle and plug in the other, so there is no possibility to overload any part of the panel or circuit feeding it.

Never have felt handicapped by this setup during real-world brewing.

 

[nicmac888]

Thanks everyone for the input!
Okay so yeah, I guess it makes way more sense to have a single socket and only one element running at a time. I will not need both my HLT and BK heating up at the same time.
So here is what I think I need so far: