How sensitive is beer to oxygen?

[njohnsoncs]

I'm wondering, in general, how sensitive beer is to the introduction of oxygen/air bubbles. I ask because I just bottled an IPA and my siphon kept getting clogged with hop debris so I had to keep restarting it which created bubbles in my beer. This happened 5 times. I finished bottling and hope the beer will be fine - RDWHAHB.

 

[processhead]

What you describe shouldn't affect your beer. Long term exposure is what you want to avoid, like in an open brew bucket for extended periods of time or splashing and pouring your beer.

 

[doug293cz]

Commercial brewers target less than 150 ppb (parts per billion) total packaged oxygen (TPO) for IPA's. IPA's are more sensitive to oxidation than less hoppy beers. You have added enough O2 to severely reduce the storage life of your beer. Let it fully condition (carbonate), and then drink them fast.

Brew on

 

[Gravity]

You'll be fine. Oxidation happens more when there is longer periods of exposure or as processhead mentioned splashing it around; think moving it from one container to another.

You should invest in a muslin bag and wrap your auto-siphon tip with it to prevent hop sediment from being picked up. This works well with whole hops and pellets

 

[mongoose33]

This should be a pretty short thread. No differences of opinion about the role of oxygen in brewing.

I had the pleasure of touring Third Space brewery in Milwaukee on Saturday. I had the even better pleasure of the tour guide being the brewmaster.

He is hyper-focused on avoiding oxygen when he cans his beer (yeah, he cans--had a long explanation why that made more sense for him, and it's hard to disagree). He even has a $12,000 device to measure dissolved O2, which I asked if I could borrow. He said, "Yes, if you give me a $12,000 deposit."

One interesting way to think about the role O2 plays in beer spoilage is to think about using a pump to dispense a keg of beer at a party. The keg is in a tub filled with ice, and the beer is pressurized by pumping air.

Two days later--sometimes even the next day--the beer will already have an off flavor as it goes stale.

In my own brewing I take pains to avoid oxygen exposure after fermentation. I'm a little anal about it, but my beers tend to have very good storage life, and I don't get the characteristic stale beer flavor.

The above advice is likely correct--just don't store it for six months. There probably is some consumption of that oxygen as the yeast carbonates the beer. Just drink it with alacrity, something I have a feeling you'll have little difficulty accomplishing.

 

[AMessenger]

I've had the same thing happen multiple times and never noticed an ill effect. That is even in beer that has aged a year or more.

I believe the yeast doing the bottle conditioning provide a bit of a security blanket against oxygen.

 

[processhead]

Not to put too fine a point on the Ops situation, but consider the following:
.Air is only about 19% oxygen.
.During human respiration we exhale primarily CO2, and a lesser quantity of diluted constituents of air, nitrogen, oxygen, argon.
. The OP just might stand a greater chance of lactobacillus infection as oxygenation of his beer by blowing in his racking hose.

 

[eyebrau]

Not to push the thread much further... but as noted above, oxidation takes time to effect beer. It's an IPA, which are meant to drink fresh anyway, so I think you are in good shape. Drink your IPAs fresh because you should, this is just one more excuse to do so.

 

[doug293cz]

Not to put too fine a point on the Ops situation, but consider the following:
.Air is only about 19% oxygen.
.During human respiration we exhale primarily CO2, and a lesser quantity of diluted constituents of air, nitrogen, oxygen, argon.
. The OP just might stand a greater chance of lactobacillus infection as oxygenation of his beer by blowing in his racking hose.

Air is about 21% O2 (by volume.) Inhaled air composition:

• 78% Nitrogen
• 21% Oxygen
• 1% Argon, etc.
• 0.04% Carbon Dioxide

Exhaled air compotion:

• 78% Nitrogen
• 16% Oxygen
• 1% Argon, etc.
• 4% Carbon Dioxide
• 1% Water vapor

Reference: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/GCSE_Science/Breathing_and_Respiration

The 150 ppb TPO limit comes from here: http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf, page 21

"Anything over 150 ppb noticeable on a hoppy beer within 3
weeks of warm storage (65-70 F)"​

Three weeks of warm storage sounds a lot like the conditions for bottle carbonation. IF the yeast can convert enough of the O2 to benign compounds, you could be ok. But, air starts out at 210,000,000 ppb O2, it's a long way from there to 150 ppb. Doesn't take much air to be "too much" O2 for beer.

It's also possible that you are not sensitive to the off flavors due to slight amounts of oxidation. If so, then you can get away with more than someone who is more sensitive.

Brew on

Edited to fix typo in exhaled N2 percentage

 

[Yooper]

As a beer judge, the most common flaw I pick up is oxidation. It's very common in homebrew actually, and if you have the palate for it you will definitely pick it up in even the most carefully packaged beer in a homebrew setting with some time. Some beers age better than others, as oxidation is even part of the flavor profile (like in a barley wine) but most of the time, it's a flaw.

An IPA or other hoppy beer can deteriorate rapidly. Oh, it may not taste like the oft-touted 'cardboard' flavor, but the hops fade and the beer may pick up a slight sweet "brandy'like flavor. That can happen in just a few days with some oxidation. But if you drink the beer relatively quickly, the flaw may not become all that apparent except for the fading of the hops flavor and aroma.

 

[mongoose33]

As a beer judge, the most common flaw I pick up is oxidation. It's very common in homebrew actually, and if you have the palate for it you will definitely pick it up in even the most carefully packaged beer in a homebrew setting with some time. Some beers age better than others, as oxidation is even part of the flavor profile (like in a barley wine) but most of the time, it's a flaw.

An IPA or other hoppy beer can deteriorate rapidly. Oh, it may not taste like the oft-touted 'cardboard' flavor, but the hops fade and the beer may pick up a slight sweet "brandy'like flavor. That can happen in just a few days with some oxidation. But if you drink the beer relatively quickly, the flaw may not become all that apparent except for the fading of the hops flavor and aroma.

Yooper, in your experience, does that oxidation show up over time or does it tend to be evident quite early in the storage? (Hoppy brews aside).

Brulosophy has had a couple recent exbeeriments testing high vs. normal or low oxidation, and in both cases there really wasn't a detectable difference (neither was significant) and among those who correctly picked the correct sample in the triangle test, they were roughly split in which they preferred.

I just toured Third Space brewery in Milwaukee this weekend, and the tour was conducted by the brewmaster (great tour and great beer by the way). He is very concerned about any oxygen getting in during packaging, very much so. The focus professional brewers place on oxidation tells me I should do everything I can to avoid it.

And yet, exbeeriments like those at Brulosophy suggest it's just not that big a problem. And yet, further, you can detect it and it's a common flaw in beers you judge.

Yooper, is your sense of the results of these exbeeriments simply that some can tell and some can't? One of the issues with brulosophy exbeeriments has always been what the panels of tasters represent. Do you know of any where judges like yourself, who can perceive of oxidation, have tested any of these methods?

 

[Yooper]

I have tasted obvious oxidation in beers where the brewer says things like, "There is no oxidation in my beer- this beer is awesome!" And attributed to "ugly baby syndrome", you know when someone made the beer and don't feel any flaws are in there.

But that doesn't explain Marshall's exbeerments. I only took part in one of them, and it was a warm-fermented lager that was very well received, but I noticed the off one right away and didn't prefer it at all.

I think sometimes people are looking for that "cardboard" flavor that is described, or musty, moldy, or rancid, some really huge off flavor in the beer. An early oxidized beer may just not have the bright aroma it once had, and may have a hint of 'sherry' or 'brandy' notes. It may take longer for the staling reactions to become more pronounced, or it could be that some people don't have sensory training or trained palates.

The thing is, people like what they like. So if they don't mind that madierized note in their beer, or even like it, that's fine. My point is that saying that oxidation doesn't matter may help comfort a brewer who made a mistake in racking, but the truth is that the beer is impacted negatively and may not be scored well in competition. If the brewer loves it anyway, that's great and I'm happy to hear that they do.

I"m going with another moderator from this forum to judge a large competition this weekend, and he's a nationally ranked judge. I'll ask him more about his feelings on this and see what he says.

I was at Redhook last fall and even the rinse water for rinsing the bottling line after cleaning uses oxygen-reduced water even though it doesn't even touch the beer. I think it was like something like <2 ppb or something like that. He had very strong feelings about oxygen and beer, and they took extraneous steps to prevent oxygen contact. It was really interesting.

 

[oujens]

Yooper, in your experience, does that oxidation show up over time or does it tend to be evident quite early in the storage? (Hoppy brews aside).

Brulosophy has had a couple recent exbeeriments testing high vs. normal or low oxidation, and in both cases there really wasn't a detectable difference (neither was significant) and among those who correctly picked the correct sample in the triangle test, they were roughly split in which they preferred.

I just toured Third Space brewery in Milwaukee this weekend, and the tour was conducted by the brewmaster (great tour and great beer by the way). He is very concerned about any oxygen getting in during packaging, very much so. The focus professional brewers place on oxidation tells me I should do everything I can to avoid it.

And yet, exbeeriments like those at Brulosophy suggest it's just not that big a problem. And yet, further, you can detect it and it's a common flaw in beers you judge.

Yooper, is your sense of the results of these exbeeriments simply that some can tell and some can't? One of the issues with brulosophy exbeeriments has always been what the panels of tasters represent. Do you know of any where judges like yourself, who can perceive of oxidation, have tested any of these methods?

That experiment was interesting. For one, it would have been nice to have a DO reading of the samples. The writer noted his standard process he used was to transfer to a non-purged keg. Gelatin was also added which adds oxygen. Given that, I'm not sure oxygen was really controlled except one may have had more oxygen introduced but was not confirmed with a measurement. We saw it with our eyes, but I'm willing to bet the other sample had a high DO content.

Recently a poster complained of staling flavors in his IPA. He traced it to oxidation even though he thought his process was tight. The DO content on that beer per his reading was .95 ppm, higher than the recommended .15 ppm threshold. He changed his kegging practice on the next attempt to adopt some low oxygen techniques and got a .05 ppm reading the next batch. His IPA was finally intact. Point being that even our best attempts may not be good enough to avoid oxygen and for the most part, we may not understand some of the flavors we identify in our beer is actually from a certain level of oxidation. This has been my experience as well, but YMMV.

 

[oujens]

I think sometimes people are looking for that "cardboard" flavor that is described, or musty, moldy, or rancid, some really huge off flavor in the beer. An early oxidized beer may just not have the bright aroma it once had, and may have a hint of 'sherry' or 'brandy' notes. It may take longer for the staling reactions to become more pronounced, or it could be that some people don't have sensory training or trained palates.

+1 on this. I made beers that met the recommended practices on this board an thought I made my best beer ever, but I could still sense something that wasn't quite right. I don't drink my kegs fast, so they hang around longer and perhaps have more time to show this oxidation characteristics. After reading more on the topic, I changed my practice and that flavor is not there anymore. The flavor is also stable through its life in my keezer.

Just my experience and I know all setups are not created equal, but my experiences have made me really anal about oxygen on the cold side. I'm not recommending anyone to change their practice if they enjoy their beer, but it might be something to review in your cold side process.

 

[mongoose33]

+1 on this. I made beers that met the recommended practices on this board an thought I made my best beer ever, but I could still sense something that wasn't quite right. I don't drink my kegs fast, so they hang around longer and perhaps have more time to show this oxidation characteristics. After reading more on the topic, I changed my practice and that flavor is not there anymore. The flavor is also stable through its life in my keezer.

Just my experience and I know all setups are not created equal, but my experiences have made me really anal about oxygen on the cold side. I'm not recommending anyone to change their practice if they enjoy their beer, but it might be something to review in your cold side process.

What did you do to change your process? Would you explain it here?

I'm pretty focused on avoiding O2 after fermentation, but I can always get better.

 

[oujens]

I know many will roll their eyes at this so please keep an open mind. ******************** contains some good write ups on kegging practices. First, I upgraded from a bucket to a corny keg for fermenting. I then connected it to a purged keg to further purge my serving vessel with co2 from fermentation (this was illustrated by schematix on this board, but not necessary). Once fermentation is around 4-6 gravity points remaining, I pressure transfer to my serving vessel, set my desired carb pressure, add my spunding valve and allow fermentation to consume any oxygen from transfer and to naturally carb the beer. The only issue I have found is timing fermentation, but there is a process outlined to utilize priming sugar to reactivate fermentation prior to transfer to achieve the same results.

The great thing about this process is I only had to spend $40 on a spunding valve since I had a spare keg, and now I have a pressure capable fermenter. I've been very happy with my results. I admit I have been adopting some hot side practices too, but I really think the cold side was my biggest weakness before I changed my practices.

 

[njohnsoncs]

Thanks for all the comments. The last batch was difficult to siphon since I added pellet hops at flameout, didn't strain when dumping the wort into my primary, and then dry hopped pellets without a bag. I knew it would clog the siphon (even with a bag wrapped around it) so, a learning experience.

 

[mongoose33]

I know many will roll their eyes at this so please keep an open mind. ******************** contains some good write ups on kegging practices. First, I upgraded from a bucket to a corny keg for fermenting. I then connected it to a purged keg to further purge my serving vessel with co2 from fermentation (this was illustrated by schematix on this board, but not necessary). Once fermentation is around 4-6 gravity points remaining, I pressure transfer to my serving vessel, set my desired carb pressure, add my spunding valve and allow fermentation to consume any oxygen from transfer and to naturally carb the beer. The only issue I have found is timing fermentation, but there is a process outlined to utilize priming sugar to reactivate fermentation prior to transfer to achieve the same results.

The great thing about this process is I only had to spend $40 on a spunding valve since I had a spare keg, and now I have a pressure capable fermenter. I've been very happy with my results. I admit I have been adopting some hot side practices too, but I really think the cold side was my biggest weakness before I changed my practices.

Do you know any commercial examples of beer brewed using processes like these?

I'm of a mind to try something like this, but if one looks at the lowoxygenbrewing site, there are a TON of places someone should have to reduce oxygen exposure. It looks terribly convoluted at one level, but without some assurance that my beer is going to take a leap in quality and taste, it's hard to commit to something like that.

 

[oujens]

Do you know any commercial examples of beer brewed using processes like these?



I'm of a mind to try something like this, but if one looks at the lowoxygenbrewing site, there are a TON of places someone should have to reduce oxygen exposure. It looks terribly convoluted at one level, but without some assurance that my beer is going to take a leap in quality and taste, it's hard to commit to something like that.

I'm not sure of how many do so, but I do know a local craft brewery in my area who uses a similar process. They specifically describe spunding their beers during tours. Just so happens to be a German brewery.

My recommendation is to read the cold side practices on the low oxygen site. The HSA is its own beast. If you think your beers are losing something during packaging, I recommend spunding. For the hot side I've noticed some changes in my beer too but want a little more experimentation before I give the same recommendation. Positive results so far on that side as well.

 

[mongoose33]

I'm not sure of how many do so, but I do know a local craft brewery in my area who uses a similar process. They specifically describe spunding their beers during tours. Just so happens to be a German brewery.

My recommendation is to read the cold side practices on the low oxygen site. The HSA is its own beast. If you think your beers are losing something during packaging, I recommend spunding. For the hot side I've noticed some changes in my beer too but want a little more experimentation before I give the same recommendation. Positive results so far on that side as well.

Part of what I'm trying to figure out is whether you must do everything perfectly, or whether incremental improvements produce incremental improvements in the beer.

In other words, is there a single point of failure in the process such that if you don't do everything perfectly, it's all (or mostly) for naught?

 

[schematix]

I went low oxygen on all my beer hot side and cold side and it's never been better.

For years I was picking up that winey/brand/sherry note in every beer after a few weeks in the keg. Definitely not cardboard. It got better the tighter I made my fermentation, but force carbing always produced the flavor.

First low oxygen batch this flavor was gone. As I've tightened things up the purity of the grain flavors I am getting is getting even more pronounced.

Long term storage hasn't been an issue. I am still working on a 7 month old yooper oat stout that is phenomenal (I made it high oxygen before and it was good but it developed the oxidized flavors). I've had IPAs maintain their full bright clean hop flavor and aroma for 5+ months.

In some ways it's been more work to do low oxygen brewing, but easier in others. Ultimately I have gone down that path because I prefer the results.

It's going to be virtually impossible to do low oxygen anything with a racking cane though. Bottling is also difficult. You really need to do multiple purges and flushes, followed by capping on foam. The problematic levels are so low that it's really a difficult problem to solve.

 

[The_Bishop]

They specifically describe spunding their beers during tours.

Big breweries spund to save CO2. Why blow it out the blowoff only to replace it?

 

[oujens]

Part of what I'm trying to figure out is whether you must do everything perfectly, or whether incremental improvements produce incremental improvements in the beer.



In other words, is there a single point of failure in the process such that if you don't do everything perfectly, it's all (or mostly) for naught?

We are after the same thing. I would say I have researched exhaustively to improve my beer. Each step has brought an improvement - water, mash ph, measurements, etc. i would take the first drink off of my fully carbed keg and would think I've nailed it, but there would be that hint of something that didn't belong, and I couldn't change it through recipes or any other techniques. I made my first IPA only to be disappointed in the hop presence after a big dry hop. It had to be oxygen. My recent keg has not developed those flavors after 8 weeks. The mouthfeel and everything is different. I would say this process did provide that incremental improvement, but perhaps all I needed was to improve my purging practices. Either way I cannot deny the results.

 

[oujens]

Big breweries spund to save CO2. Why blow it out the blowoff only to replace it?

Correct, but let's not overlook the other benefit of spunded beer. If the beer is fully carbed once fermentation is complete, you greatly reduce the amount of oxygen that can dissolve in your wort.

 

[ArcaneXor]

As a beer judge, the most common flaw I pick up is oxidation.

Totally. Around 1/3 of the beers I have judged in competitions are oxidized. Since active yeast can counteract and even reverse oxidation to some extent, the OP may be okay if they bottle condition.

I do not know the ratio, but I would guess that the majority of oxidized competition beers are fills from kegs without purging the bottles with CO2 first.

 

[AMessenger]

How did this beer turn out?