Home Brewish Taste

[harding70]

I loved my first batch of beer (probably amazed that I could brew) nearly 6 years ago. Since, I've been increasingly more disappointed in my results. I thought it might be my aluminum brewpot, so I converted a full-sized keg and am brewing in that. I use a carbuoy for both primary and secondary, and use iodophor for sanitization which I consider myself to be pretty strict about.

To sum up, I can't seem to shake this "home brew" taste! Is it just me? Am I being to hard on my own beer?, or is there something more that I can do?

Potential problems: I think I may have been misguided in my attempts to chill and aerate simultaneously by frothing with my immersion chiller. I also think I may have "over-carmelized" my extract by boiling for 60+ minutes. Perhaps my homebrew store has substandard liquid extract.

Strategies: I purchased "Ryans face puncher IPA" recipe from Northern Brewer and plan to incorporate new procedures to fix the above suspected problems. If this batch doesn't taste like it was brewed in my garage and I actually like it, then I will buy the same recipe and try again with my local homebrew store to see if I get the same results.

Anyone else have an imaginary or actual problem like mine?

 

[Pappers_]

I would suggest that you try to more substantially identify and describe the flavor issue you are having. That way, you may be able to identify the cause or at least evaluate your future batches.

 

[harding70]

It is not any one thing I can put my finger on except perhaps a Pumpkiny, overly malty, molassesy, kind of mediocrity that usually leaves me feeling like... WELL THAT WAS A WASTE OF FRICKIN' TIME!

I am really hoping to solve the mystery with this next batch so I can justify progressing into all-grain.

Thanks for any advice you may have.

 

[harding70]

Love the profile pic BTW

 

[Pappers_]

Take your beer and a commercial version of the same style and do a tasting side-by-side. Write down tasting notes. Use descriptive words, like "pumpkin" or ""malty" or "molasses" - really push to identify the flavors in both beers.

If it is a molasses flavor or too malty, that makes me wonder where your final gravity has been landing and/ or if you're having any carmelization in your wort when you boil. Two ideas: try a high attenuating and clean yeast on a batch and also try using a late addition methodof adding extract.

Cheers and good luck!

 

[wendelgee2]

First of all, you need to describe your process. For instance, if you're doing partial boil with your extracts, then maybe you're not getting enough hop utilization/bitterness, thus the "malty" flavor. Or, maybe you're not making an appropriate starter, or don't have adequate temperature control...both can lead to underattenuation and other undesirable flavors. In short: Without describing your process, we can't really help you.

 

[harding70]

Rog,

got a good American Ale from Wyeast and will add the extract per the schedule on the recipe (3# at 60 mins and 6# at 15 mins). Northern's recipe is calculated for a 2.5 gallon boil though, and I plan to start at 5.97 gallons for evaporation and trube. I am hypothesizing that I may end up with better hop utilization and hopefully a less malty outcome. wish me luck and thanks for the help.

 

[jppostKW]

What temps are you fermenting at? might lead to off flavors
edit wendeglee beat me to it

 

[harding70]

OK, as the process goes:

I have historically started with a boil of about 6 gallons in an aluminum pot (until recently gaining a converted keggle). Adding malts and hops at 60 minutes, late addition hops per recipes (they have varied), then cooling to about 90-100 degrees F. I splash whilst racking into the carbuoy followed by brief agitation to aerate, then pitch the yeast which usually kicks off in 4-6 hours and very vigorously at that. I use a blow-off tube rather than an airlock because of such robust fermentation. I place the carbuoy in the shower and the temp varies from 62-72 F.

I am obsessive about sanitization, so I don't think it's contamination, but perhaps under utilized hops due to early malt addition, or over-carmelized malt because of the same.

Hope I can get this figured out.

 

[Pleepleus]

Are you taking starting and ending hydrometer tests??

 

[lamarguy]

then cooling to about 90-100 degrees F. I splash whilst racking into the carboy followed by brief agitation to aerate, then pitch the yeast which usually kicks off in 4-6 hours and very vigorously at that.

If you're pitching yeast in ~90F wort...Stop doing that!

 

[harding70]

Yeah, forgot to add "lower pitch temp" to my procedural fixes, although i've been getting quick starts and very active fermentation.

 

[carnevoodoo]

What are your final gravity readings like? Are you using grain or is it all extract?

 

[DavidSteel]

My little opinion: probably your temps, time you add the extract, and most of all: extract in general (especially/mostly liquid). Go AG and report back.

 

[BigEd]

To sum up, I can't seem to shake this "home brew" taste! Is it just me? Am I being to hard on my own beer?, or is there something more that I can do?

If you are expecting your early homebrews made from extract kits to taste like commercial beers then, yes, you are being too hard on your own beers. Beers made from liquid extracts will tend to be less than fully attenuated leaving a residual caramel/toffee flavor. Also your yeast pitching at the temperatures you described is asking for trouble. The initial fermentation is likely to produce unwanted esters and fusels which will compound that classic "homebrew taste" of unfermented long sugars, phenols and assorted higher alcohols. Get yourself a good homebrewing book, Palmer's "How to Brew" is probably the best choice available. Read about the methods and techniques and check out improved extract procedures like "late addition". Descriptions and testimonials can be found with a search here and other homebrewing forums. Your beer will improve with experience and better technique.

 

[smizak]

You're definitely pitching too hot. The yeast form a lot of the precursors for esters and such during the growth phase, which is happening in your beer at way too high a temperature. I pitch my yeast a couple of degrees cooler than my ferment temp and let it warm up.

 

[jds]

My little opinion: probably your temps, time you add the extract, and most of all: extract in general (especially/mostly liquid). Go AG and report back.

It's completely possible to make great beer from extracts -- AG brewing is not the only solution to OP's particular problem.

My experience with extracts is that the keys to getting the best flavor from them are as follows:

1. Really fresh extract. If you're buying LME, look for a shop that does a lot of business so the bulk extract turns over quickly.
2. Boil the full volume, as OP is already doing.
3. Leave a good portion of the extract out until the last 10 minutes of the boil. This reduces oxidation and excess caramelization of the extract. Google the following for more info: late extract addition site:homebrewtalk.com
4. Pitch your yeast at or near fermenting temperature. Yeast produces most of the esters during the lag (growth) phase. It produces a lot more esters when it's hot. Pitching warm does certainly shorten lag and lead to more vigorous ferments, but IMO it's not worth it, as the flavor suffers.
5. Fermentation control: Keep temperatures below 70, pitch an adequate amount of healthy yeast, and you will be rewarded.

My $.02

 

[harding70]

You guys rock! thanks so much for the timely response and good inputs. I'll definitely pitch lower and incorporate the late addition technique. I'll be sure to post my results when I sample the fruits of my labor. If any one or combination of these fixes helps my enjoyment of my own beer, 'twil be worth it.

Thanks again,

Koby

 

[harding70]

Forgot to add that I've brewed all DME which still has the same effect, but to a lesser degree. I can't wait to get to the bottom of this armed with more ideas. The results will be in after primary, secondary, and conditioning (appx 2.5-3mos) I'll be sure to share my findings. :rockin::rockin:

 

[wyzazz]

I've got a couple of things to re-iterate and possibly add, I'm an extract/partial mash brewer and I make damn good beer if I do say so myself.

1. I don't use LME, I only use DME in my brews.

2. Do an extract batch with Specialty Grains or Partial Mash if possible, you'll get more control over the flavor of the beer.

3. I cool my wort to 65* before pitching and aerate using a venturi tube while chilling through my plate chiller and straight in to the fermenter.

4. I've never used a "kit" so to speak. All my batches from day 1 have been recipes, some from BYO, some from my LHBS guys, quite a few from the Recipe DB here at HBT.

5. Get a brewing program like BeerSmith, once you figure out how to use it you can start punching your recipes in to it and check out things like the IBU's you are getting in a recipe, and you can also guesstimate how much your yeast will attenuate.

This is just what I do, YMMV

 

[wendelgee2]

[*]Leave a good portion of the extract out until the last 10 minutes of the boil. This reduces oxidation and excess caramelization of the extract. Google the following for more info: late extract addition site:homebrewtalk.com

Slightly off topic, but I don't think you need to do a late extract addition if you're doing a full boil. Late extract additions are a way to increase hop utilization for people doing partial boils, so you aren't boiling a viscous 1.100 wort in order to make a 1.050 beer.

 

[Pappers_]

It's also a way to avoid excessive carmelization of the extract, by boiling most of the extract for a shorter time. Whether this is the OP's issue is unclear, but some of the flavors he is describing (molasses, too malty) *could* be due to carmelization.

Slightly off topic, but I don't think you need to do a late extract addition if you're doing a full boil. Late extract additions are a way to increase hop utilization for people doing partial boils, so you aren't boiling a viscous 1.100 wort in order to make a 1.050 beer.

 

[mctc]

"extract in general" I know much less then anyone else posting here but I agree that almost all beers I made with extract had this "homebrew" flavor that I did not like. It was a malty sort. maybe carmel/toffee is a good description. since I switched to AG I will not go back. not to say a better set of skills could make extract taste better then me but it has really changed things for me.

 

[Revvy]

Slightly off topic, but I don't think you need to do a late extract addition if you're doing a full boil. Late extract additions are a way to increase hop utilization for people doing partial boils, so you aren't boiling a viscous 1.100 wort in order to make a 1.050 beer.

No, it's to prevent further carmelization of the wort, since lme tends to be pretty carmelized all ready and it has a propensity to sink to the bottom of the kettle and further caremelize, AND evaporation during a boil with further thicken/carmelize the wort during a long boil.

It's less crucial with DME, but for ANY beer where LME is used, full boil or not, it isn't a bad idea to do late extract additions.

harding70, how long are you letting your beers stay in primary, and how long are you letting them bottle or keg condition? What you attribute to being a homebrew taste may in effect just that you are drinking green beer. I know plenty of brew pubs, and brewers who use extract, and they don't have a "homebrew taste" they taste just as good as an commercial or even any all grain homebrews.

If you are using the freshest ingredients, doing things like the late extract addition mentioned on here, and giving the beer plenty of time to mature, there should be no difference between your and any other beers.

 

[MultumInParvo]

It could also be your water.

I brewed identical batches, one in Saratoga Springs the other in Ann Arbor. The Saratoga Springs one was pretty good, that Ann Arbor one was certainly better. SS had much harder water and very noticeable chlorine whereas AA tastes much better and is very soft.

I say get a water report. Its free! If something is crazy, like you have calcium at 450 ppm, then you know that could be it.

 

[jds]

Slightly off topic, but I don't think you need to do a late extract addition if you're doing a full boil. Late extract additions are a way to increase hop utilization for people doing partial boils, so you aren't boiling a viscous 1.100 wort in order to make a 1.050 beer.

I have to disagree here. Late additions will certainly reduce kettle caramelization. Why re-boil extract that's already been boiled?

As for hop utilization, I'm not sure about that. Most of that information comes from Palmer, who isn't as convinced as he used to be (based upon a BBR podcast I heard a while back.) that gravity has a strong effect, particularly in extract beers. Turns out, a good portion of the reduced utilization is due to hop oils being carried out of suspension by a vigorous hot break in AG beers.

That hot break is vastly reduced in extract beers, where the hot break has already been carried away, hence, less loss in utilization.

Regardless, late addition of some of the extract is a great way to reduce the "extracty" flavor sometimes associated with LME.

 

[wendelgee2]

I have to disagree here. Late additions will certainly reduce kettle caramelization. Why re-boil extract that's already been boiled?

You folks are a wealth of information.

 

[Awfers]

You might want to think of switching too All Grain (please let me know if I'm wrong, but are you brewing using LME/DME with steeping grains etc?)

I find that the "over-maltiness" (like in Maltesers malted milk balls) comes from using LME / DME. It's a bit like the difference between ice-tea from powder, and that which you make starting with teabags and hot water. They both are fine, just comes down to personal preference.

 

[DavidSteel]

You folks are a wealth of information.

If/when you use liquid extract, add the last 15 minutes of the boil. You can add the DME at the start. It's really better to skip LME in general from what I've heard but I'm sure the late addition could fix a majority of that. Otherwise, just buy a cheap rubbermaid cooler or ask a friend if you could buy their old one off of them and convert it into a mash tun. I did it for only 15 dollars. Mine ended up looking like this: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/just-built-my-mash-tun-pics-151618/. Took me 5 minutes to put together lol.

These threads should prove to be very helpful:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cheap-easy-10-gallon-rubbermaid-mlt-conversion-23008/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-grain-brewing-extract-brewing-equipment-pics-142648/

 

[CoalBrew]

I think Harding 70 is a boob!

I mean seriously... who can't brew drinkable beer???

 

[CoalBrew]

Seriously....

His beer isn't that bad. All this is EXCELLENT info however. I plan to use all the hints on my next attempt.

P.S. Can we discuss more about specifically defining the "off-flavors". Is the beer judging program worth while?

And Harding... I think we need to concentrate especially on the pitching temp and looking into yeast a bit more. Attenuation rates etc. How is attenuatio measured anybody???

 

[BigEd]

I think Harding 70 is a boob!

I mean seriously... who can't brew drinkable beer???

I hate to be the one to clue you in but there's plenty of lousy beer being brewed and it's certainly not all homebrew. If H70 was a boob he wouldn't have recognized that his beer could be better and looked for ways to improve it. Why in the hell does that upset you?

 

[harding70]

I hate to be the one to clue you in but there's plenty of lousy beer being brewed and it's certainly not all homebrew. If H70 was a boob he wouldn't have recognized that his beer could be better and looked for ways to improve it. Why in the hell does that upset you?

Ah, thanks Big Ed, but that's just my brother-in-law and brother-in-beer teasing me! Coalbrew: suck-it, or I'll sick Big Ed on you.

Huge thanks to everyone who has responded. I will see if I can video my attempt to correct these problems and narrarate how I used to cock it up! I'll post it on the page as soon as I figure it out...

 

[wendelgee2]

In other news: all of my beer tasted "like homebrew" before I started making appropriate starters.

 

[harding70]

just leaving the Wyeast out for a day or two isn't sufficient? what does a starter do that the punch pack doesn't?

 

[Pleepleus]

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Check out that page about pitching rates on Jamil's website. I also have noticed a MASSIVE difference in my beers when I went to making starters, following the recommendations on this pitching calculator.

I'm not sure if I missed it in there, but are you taking hydrometer samples before and after fermentation?? Any clues you could give us as to what they were, fermentation temp, etc, would greatly help getting more specific answers. I assure you, you can make excellent beer using extract! Don't be quick to blame it solely on this. Having said that, I didn't start making good beers until I went All Grain. But I have since made great partial mash beers on my stove top in the winter. The difference between before going AG and after, is just in my knowledge and the time that I took in reading before actually attempting my first AG batch.

 

[harding70]

First of all, OUCH! That article just made my head hurt. Now I have that look on my face like I'm trying to divide 4387 by 13! The Wyeast packet states that it's designed to pitch in a 5 gal batch. Will I really gain much by creating a starter? I haven't historically had fermentation trouble.

 

[mezak1gd]

SWITCH TO ALL GRAIN. Seriously your beers turn out way better. Extract brewing is too limiting.

 

[Revvy]

SWITCH TO ALL GRAIN. Seriously your beers turn out way better. Extract brewing is too limiting.

Plenty of great beer both commercial in many more microbreweries than you want to probably acknowlege, and homebrew is made with extract. And plenty of extract recipes have won contests.

Being on here I have seen to many folks who think jumping right to AG is a magic bullet, that doing that means they are going to instantly make "better" beer then the "crap" they feel they made from extract. You know, when they didn't use a hydrometer, racked it to soon, and drank their first bottles 3 days after capping them. And they this end up starting "is my beer ruined threads?" where we STILL have to suggest they take a gravity reading or do some other piece of "homebrewing 101" basic stuff.

If your process sucks as an extract brewer, it's gonna suck making all grain, maybe even more so because there are so many more factors that come into play.

It's not the method that makes better beer, It's the brewer that determines whether or not the beer he makes is crap or excellent.

I wrote a blog about it a couple years back. http://blogs.homebrewtalk.com/Revvy/Why_cant_we_all_get_along/

The fact that the OP wants to learn why his beer has certain tastes prooves that he wants to be a great brewer.

Underpitching yeast (ergo not making a starter) not paying attention to temp control, not using a hydromter, and not leaving the beer long enough in primary to clean up after itself are all brewing skills that can improve ANY batch regardless of whether or not is is AG...and NOT doing so can make for sucky beer REGARDLESS of whether it is extract or AG.

I've choked down, and even made some damn awful AG batches, and enojoyed plenty of great extract batches, from other brewers and myself.

 

[erock2112]

I don't think the problem is the fact that it's extract-based. Maybe try a late addition and see if that does anything, but I'm thinking the problem is coming from the yeast. Try making a good-sized starter (refer to MrMalty) and make sure your fermentation temperatures are good. Remember that the actual temperature of the fermenting wort will be several degrees higher than the ambient temperature. Therefore, if you're on the upper end of your 62-72 range, your wort could be over 75, which is too high. My first few brews were fermented in an ambient temperature of 75, and they were nasty, verging on undrinkable. If you have the cabability, try placing a temperature probe inside the fermentor or use a stick-on strip thermometer to get an idea of where your actual temperatures are.