BWils39 said:
Do they ONLY brew Heady at the brewery or do they brew their Celia Saison there as well? I look at the 71 degree temps as either a good temp for saison yeast or they raise it towards the end of fermentation to help the yeast finish up
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
- Thread starter theveganbrewer
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
Do they ONLY brew Heady at the brewery or do they brew their Celia Saison there as well? I look at the 71 degree temps as either a good temp for saison yeast or they raise it towards the end of fermentation to help the yeast finish up
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
What if we have it backwards? What if they start at 71 to bring out the fruit, then dry-hop/lager/cold-crash at 56? (I live in Houston; 56 is cold here. When I lived in Minneapolis 56 was positively sultry)
Alchemist ONLY brews heady topper and at this time even post expansion they sell out 2x a week. They can beer on Mondays and Wednesdays and are usually sold out by Saturday. They brew on a 15 bbl system and have a bunch of tanks but space is there bottleneck. They will continue to sell out of beer regularly in the near future unless they increase production yet again; point being, they aren't gonna brew any others beers right now.
"What if we have it backwards? What if they start at 71 to bring out the fruit, then dry-hop/lager/cold-crash at 56? (I live in Houston; 56 is cold here. When I lived in Minneapolis 56 was positively sultry)"
If they begin fermentation at 71 and then crash to 56 before the yeast is done they will have a ton of off flavors and the beer will not be good. Plus yeast strip a lot out of the beer through co2 blow off during fermentation so dropping temp before the beer is done would be entirely counterproductive. Most of the finished product is a combo of intense dry hopping before packaging and yeast character. It is possible but unlikely that they have a very convoluted and complex fermentation schedule like Fullers ESB where they ferment at 68 (or 71) and then drop the temp to 62 half way through fermentation before raising it back up to stress the yeast and force them to produce the peachy fruity esters that the beer presents. I doubt this is the case but again it wouldn't hurt to try it. Ultimately starting a beer hot at or around 71 and then crashing is a recipe for stuck fermentation and or diacetyl/DMS. Anyone else please chime in on this topic.
Brian
"What if we have it backwards? What if they start at 71 to bring out the fruit, then dry-hop/lager/cold-crash at 56? (I live in Houston; 56 is cold here. When I lived in Minneapolis 56 was positively sultry)"
If they begin fermentation at 71 and then crash to 56 before the yeast is done they will have a ton of off flavors and the beer will not be good. Plus yeast strip a lot out of the beer through co2 blow off during fermentation so dropping temp before the beer is done would be entirely counterproductive. Most of the finished product is a combo of intense dry hopping before packaging and yeast character. It is possible but unlikely that they have a very convoluted and complex fermentation schedule like Fullers ESB where they ferment at 68 (or 71) and then drop the temp to 62 half way through fermentation before raising it back up to stress the yeast and force them to produce the peachy fruity esters that the beer presents. I doubt this is the case but again it wouldn't hurt to try it. Ultimately starting a beer hot at or around 71 and then crashing is a recipe for stuck fermentation and or diacetyl/DMS. Anyone else please chime in on this topic.
Brian
PseudoChef
Well-Known Member
Commercial cylindroconical fermentors are a much different animal than a homebrewer's 5 gallon carboy or bucket. Head pressure is different depending on the size of the vessel as is the core temperature of the yeast due to the compaction and ensuing thermal mass. There's a chance that The Alchemists 71 is our 65. Semi-related: this is one of the main reasons why commercials brewers do need to worry about autolysis in a shorter time frame than homebrewers.
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
Just to clarify, I said nothing about the beer not being done fermenting. I ferment many of my English and Belgians at 71ish ambient. Since Conan is reputed to be either English or Belgian in origin, I would think it would ferment fine (i.e., fruity but not hot) and finish out at 71. Then you could drop the temp for the reasons I mentioned above and can.
This is all baseless speculation, so feel free to poke holes in my theory. Here, I will start: maybe those numbers are just red herrings and the actual temps are much different.
This is all baseless speculation, so feel free to poke holes in my theory. Here, I will start: maybe those numbers are just red herrings and the actual temps are much different.
TyTanium
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2011
- Messages
- 3,976
- Reaction score
- 611
I get more peaches/stone fruits (as opposed to pungent citrus) dry hopping at lower temps, like the 50s. I can't imagine a commercial brewery would DH cold though (too slow)
I also get peach/stone fruit from Kölsch strains at higher temps, so maybe it's related to that...start low and bump temp to bring out the peaches. I've used WLP029 in a few IPAs with C hops and they were all peachy.
I also get peach/stone fruit from Kölsch strains at higher temps, so maybe it's related to that...start low and bump temp to bring out the peaches. I've used WLP029 in a few IPAs with C hops and they were all peachy.
There's still a decent amount of citrus in Heady. It's not as apparant as the dank marijuana, but probably on par with the stone fruits. I don't think they use much fruity hops at all (if any) for this beer. Amarillo might be the exception in small amounts. But the majority of perceived fruitiness is coming from Conan.
scottland
Well-Known Member
They very well might be dry hopping at 71*. That could also explain why you've seen 71 on the tanks twice. 56* could be a fermentation temperature, or it could be the temp they drop the yeast out with. I don't know the yeast well enough to tell you.
I'd guess 71* is the dry hop temp. Pure speculation though.
I'd guess 71* is the dry hop temp. Pure speculation though.
Have you brewed a SMASH beer to verify that the fruitiness is coming from Conan?
If this was true then a brewery that used a pilot system for test batches would have no way to know if their finished beer fermented at x degrees in a 6 gallon carboy would be the same when brewed and subsequently fermented in a 30 bbl conical. As you know during fermentation yeast create ETOH and give off heat and CO2 as their byproducts. The thermowells that are imbedded in commercial conical fermenters provide an accurate temperature reading and head pressure only has a significant effect on yeast and trub that has flocculated to the cone of a fermenter. More specifically hydrostatic head pressure functions to supress the formation of esters and allow commercial breweries to produce clean finished beer with minimal negative fermentation byproducts in a much shorter time than we home brewers are able to do. The downside is the higher potential risk of autolysis aka ruptured yeast cells ruining an entire tank of beer. The aforementioned is why commercial brewers cold crash finished beer and dump yeast as soon as the fermenting wort reaches terminal gravity. They don't leave beer sitting on a yeast cake for a week or more due to the possibility of ruined beer. Since we cannot compress a liquid...basic fluid mechanics teaches us that the water/wort molecules are already touching one another and cannot be compressed so the hydrostatic pressure of a large tank of beer can only act on the resting solids (yeast/trub) potentially causing the aforementioned autolysis.
This was stated by the head brewer himself and fellow people who have had conversations with the head brewer and who have used Conan. And yes, I'm brewing with Conan now. It's peachy even when fermenting quite low. You can stop stalking me now
HawksBrewer
Well-Known Member
Hopefully I'll be able to contribute soon. Getting some HT next week that will be cultured and then I will be brewing some batches in an attempt to clone the elusive beast we know as HT. Cheers.
How does everyone feel about a simple pale ale maybe 1.045 hopped to the mid 20's 30's and no hop bursting then split in 2 carboys and fermented cold and hot with Conan to see what it yields? I'd be willing to brew a Pearl/Centennial PA and see what we get. Any other takers for simcoe, cascade, columbus etc??
Bri
If Bobbrews can confirm the fruity peachiness at both cool and warm ferm temps then we'd be beating a dead horse to brew single hop test batches. The peachy/stone fruit is there with the yeast alone. I get a ton of Columbus dank from the aroma and initial flavor of Heady...along the lines of Deviant Dale's IPA so maybe the columbus needs to play a bigger part in the dry hop. Can someone post a current working recipe that we can dig into a little bit and further and analyze.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
I'm going to ferment pretty cold this weekend with my Citra DIPA. It's got some Amarillo it in late, and it's all Citra, but I'm curious if I'll get the added peach note in there when it's colder. Will be a tell tale sign of what it will do.
This was stated by the head brewer himself and fellow people who have had conversations with the head brewer and who have used Conan. And yes, I'm brewing with Conan now. It's peachy even when fermenting quite low. You can stop stalking me now
I'm just happy you provided credible sources. Cheers.
Johnnyhitch1
Well-Known Member
The peachiness is conans characteristic. Ive been able to identify it at 68-69 and just recently i would say a pinch more "tropical/pineapple" with the peach @ 64-65
I used equal parts of citra, simcoe, cenntenial, cascade, amarilo, and galaxy with nugget for bittering and FWH. I absolutely love nugget as a bittering hop and use it on almost all my beers. The galaxy and citra really take center stage with minimal earthy dank pine due to to little cenn and no chinnok i would assume. Amarillo was subdued from the citra i think. Next batch im going to replace citra with chinook, and up the simcoe and cenntennial.
Also as a side note i used carafoam on both recipes and i cant say ive ever picked it out of another recipe but its very close to headys malty sweetness. Also had my second batch finish @ 1.014 and i can confirm 100% now that this is the FG. I also tested a can @ 1day and @ 10days to disprove my idea about him "conditioning" a point or 2 in the can. Both readings came in @1.014
I'm happy too since it will prevent further debate on how everything in life needs a scientific experiment with lab notes. Sometimes you just have to believe things based on common sense, experience, logic, and what other people report.
I would be extremely reluctant to ferment Heady warm. Is it possible? Maybe. But highly doubtful. I'm thinking 62 F is a good number to start at. The dryhop temp. is surely higher than this. This beer seems extremely Columbus heavy to me. But very different from Deviant Dales. It's more like Pliny the Elder with slightly higher residual sweetness, less citrusy, and more fruity. In both beers, marijuana notes dominate. There is more dank marijuana flavor in Heady, but more dank marijuana aroma in Pliny. I also get way more pine overall from Pliny than Heady.
kingwood-kid
Well-Known Member
I ask out of both curiosity and ignorance. Suppose I brew a heavily dry-hopped beer with Conan, which is obviously the goal of this thread. I can choose to ferment at either 71 or 56 and dry-hop at the other. What are the differences between the two options, with regard to both speed of production and the perceptible differences of the final product?
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
I brewed a beer at 62 with conan and it absolutely reaks of delicious fresh peach juice.
Also, to answer an earlier question, VT has been a major brewing scene for about 30yrs, kimmich got the strain from the late Greg Noonan, a very famous brewer from vermont pub and brewery.
Interestingly, VT has the most breweries per capita and the most beer consumption per capita nationally.
Also, to answer an earlier question, VT has been a major brewing scene for about 30yrs, kimmich got the strain from the late Greg Noonan, a very famous brewer from vermont pub and brewery.
Interestingly, VT has the most breweries per capita and the most beer consumption per capita nationally.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
Just got two Heady's on trade( thanks Mike )!!
lettin' them sit for a couple days to settle, then on to harvesting!!
I'm so close to popin one of these, but have to wait for the yeast to settle out. With only two, can't take the chance.
Has anyone harvested with only one can? I'd like to leave myself a back-up in case something goes wrong.( spill, drop flask, sneeze on it ). I've harvested a number of different yeasts, but always used a 3 or 4 bottles. I know the process, and I know it should work fine, it would just put my mind at ease to know someone has had good luck with only one.
lettin' them sit for a couple days to settle, then on to harvesting!!
I'm so close to popin one of these, but have to wait for the yeast to settle out. With only two, can't take the chance.
Has anyone harvested with only one can? I'd like to leave myself a back-up in case something goes wrong.( spill, drop flask, sneeze on it ). I've harvested a number of different yeasts, but always used a 3 or 4 bottles. I know the process, and I know it should work fine, it would just put my mind at ease to know someone has had good luck with only one.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
I would ferment cool, and dryhop warmer. The early fermentation is when warm yeast can throw off flavors. Once the fermenting is done, warming a bit shouldn't effect the beer, and may actually help a bit(think diacetyl rest) By contrast, the warmer temp allows the hop oils to leach out easier in the dry hop. I wouldn't ferment warm, and dry hop cool though.
Actually, not that many cows here. Definitely not many people either. Have a vial left up for grab btw. The more minds working towards the cloning cause the quicker we'll get there so if anyone wants to claim it lemme know.
motorneuron
Well-Known Member
I also just harvested from a single can. There is plenty of yeast in there. The key thing is just to make sure you are very precise about sanitation, since the small quantity of yeast will have a harder time out-competing other contaminants compared to a normal starter size.
I started with about 2-3 oz of the beer at the bottom, plus a 16oz or so starter, then stepped up to 48oz or so. I understand this is not the ideal procedure--usually you want a two-step starter to have the second step 5-10x the volume of the first (according to Jamil and Mr. White in _Yeast_)--but it is what it is. The starter smelled amazing, and I tasted a small amount of the spent starter (aka no-hop beer) from the first step. It's incredible how flavorful this yeast is. Real peach/apricot profile, at least when fermented at room temperature (70-72F or so).
I started with about 2-3 oz of the beer at the bottom, plus a 16oz or so starter, then stepped up to 48oz or so. I understand this is not the ideal procedure--usually you want a two-step starter to have the second step 5-10x the volume of the first (according to Jamil and Mr. White in _Yeast_)--but it is what it is. The starter smelled amazing, and I tasted a small amount of the spent starter (aka no-hop beer) from the first step. It's incredible how flavorful this yeast is. Real peach/apricot profile, at least when fermented at room temperature (70-72F or so).
Starter of Conan is bubbling away.....going to brew tomorrow. Will swing by the LHBS to pick up grain tonight.
Questions:
Any tips for setting up hop extract in Beersmith?
No Pearl available around here. Will go with a mix of 2-row and MO or might use all Northwest Pale malt.
Not sure if they have Cara-vienne. Any suggestions for a sub if they don't?
Thanks!
Questions:
Any tips for setting up hop extract in Beersmith?
No Pearl available around here. Will go with a mix of 2-row and MO or might use all Northwest Pale malt.
Not sure if they have Cara-vienne. Any suggestions for a sub if they don't?
Thanks!
Pearl malt can be bought online. IMO, if you want to clone Heady then you really need to start with a Pearl malt base. Everything else in the malt bill is speculation. We don't actually know if there is wheat malt, torrified wheat, munich, vienna, oat malt, golden naked oats, caravienne, carapils, etc. I would imagine if any of these were included in the grist, they would be 5% or less. The final color is looking to be 6.5 to 7 SRM. A very simple pale grist will get you there.
mewithstewpid
Well-Known Member
are you guys sure they dont make the celia saison anymore? you can buy it
http://www.halftimebeverage.com/browse.cfm/alchemist/2,712.html
maybe it is contract brewed or something
http://www.halftimebeverage.com/browse.cfm/alchemist/2,712.html
maybe it is contract brewed or something
I don't get to the bar often these days, but it's still listed as available at Three Penny Taproom, which is about 15 minutes from the brewery.
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
Yes, Celia is in regular production and is technically "brewed" by the Alchemist, but I'm 99.99% sure it's contract brewed. People online say it's brewed in Ipswich, Massachusetts.
I have no hard evidence for this, just common sense and internet chatter. The Alchemist brewery is a "cannery"; there's no bottling line there. Plus, I have seen Celia saison at many, many stores across New York alone. Given their inability to meet demand for Heady Topper, it makes no sense that they could be brewing Celia in the same facility and distributing it so widely across the northeast.
mewithstewpid
Well-Known Member
yeah, the bottles are what lead me to also think it's contracted out
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
Correct, Celia is not brewed at the facility in Vermont.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
Thought Cialas was brewed in a bathtub.........oh wait, different thing.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
I'm gona try it with Weyermann pale ale. No Pearl availlable locally, and I just can't wait. I'm at the hop experiment stage anyway, so I think it will be ok even if it's not exact. I'm going to FWH some magnum since I don't have hop shot, and hit it hard with late additions. The Weyermann adds a nice malt background without additions of other malts. Have Vienna, cara, and honey that I might add one or more of. I'll crack a Heady to harvest on Sunday and decide from there.
FWH is also the wrong choice for this beer. Especially with something as clean and neutral as Magnum. You need the dankness to dominate. It was earlier discussed that a fruity NZ extract may be the bittering addition. But more and more, I am thinking Heady uses something similar to PtE's CTZ hopshot.
I'd be surprised if there truly isn't Pearl available in your area. For example, Munton's Pale Ale Malt is Pearl. IIRC, Kimmich uses Fawcett Pearl, which I've been unable to source, but there are alternatives..
whitehause
Well-Known Member
I have the C from CTZ( I use it for my Pliny clone) so i might just use that as the bittering hop. I've been back and forth between the two, so columbus it is.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
There is no Pearl available within a reasonable drive. I don't have a LHBS that offers pearl. I have 70lb's of Weyermann sitting here, so I'll just use that for this first experiment. I know the pearl they use (I'm the one that posted the picture of the grain bag at the brewery), but I got what I got so I'll run with that at this stage.
Petekiteworld
Well-Known Member
Just had another heady last night and compared it to a columbus smash...
I definitely think we need to put more columbus into the clone.
I definitely think we need to put more columbus into the clone.
Midwest Supplies alway has Pearl if you don't mind mail order. It is pretty key to this clone. As is Hop Shot, I don't believe you'll get the resin-y hops character from FWing with any hop.
Similar threads
