Perhaps, since he's not filtering it, he wants that extra time for stuff to drop out? Or perhaps, like with PTE, he dry hops for a couple of weeks?
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
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Perhaps, since he's not filtering it, he wants that extra time for stuff to drop out? Or perhaps, like with PTE, he dry hops for a couple of weeks?
I agree that it could be a multiple-stage dry hop, and would love it if someone could share more info on the technique beyond "Vinny does it" or "it works for me". For some reason, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this particular idea.
EDIT: Specifically, what's the benefit over a single-stage dry hop?
I believe it's mentioned in For the Love of Hops (I'd have to go look to be sure.). As far as I remember with Vinny it's just splitting the dry hop additions and adding the first batch for x days, and then adding the second batch at x days (and leaving the beer on the hops for y more days).
great thread all.
re: ferm temp, which I didn't see posted elsewhere (although I could have missed it, the thread is 49 pages long ha), in mitch steele's IPA book, they have a recipe for El Jefe.
Fermentation and aging The Alchemist house yeast strain is "conan". Pitch low at 6-7 million cells/ML, and start at 68 degrees F. On day 3, let the temp rise to 72 degrees F. At the end of fermentation, chill to 42 degrees F, hold for 3 days. Remove yeast. Dry hop. Rouse hops 2-3 times with C02 over a week, drop out hops and remaining yeast. Age cold 2 weeks.
Presumably, one would expect ferm temps to be in line for Heady. Dry hop schedule not the same obviously, but don't see why a black ipa vs DIPA would have any big difference in ferm temp. Still doesn't explain the 56 degrees people see on the fermenters though....
re: ferm temp, which I didn't see posted elsewhere (although I could have missed it, the thread is 49 pages long ha), in mitch steele's IPA book, they have a recipe for El Jefe.
Fermentation and aging The Alchemist house yeast strain is "conan". Pitch low at 6-7 million cells/ML, and start at 68 degrees F. On day 3, let the temp rise to 72 degrees F. At the end of fermentation, chill to 42 degrees F, hold for 3 days. Remove yeast. Dry hop. Rouse hops 2-3 times with C02 over a week, drop out hops and remaining yeast. Age cold 2 weeks.
Presumably, one would expect ferm temps to be in line for Heady. Dry hop schedule not the same obviously, but don't see why a black ipa vs DIPA would have any big difference in ferm temp. Still doesn't explain the 56 degrees people see on the fermenters though....
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
Thank you, this. I've been wondering about this for a while and can't find any satisfying answers. Guess it's kind of off topic (but maybe not, depending on what technique Kimmich uses), but I can't figure out why a multi-stage dry-hop would add more aroma than a single-stage, when hop aroma dissipates so quickly. More and more research seems to indicate that maximum dry hop aroma can be extracted in under a day. Seems like you'd want to be done and canned/bottle as quickly as possible, to lock the aroma in, rather than stretching it out over a couple weeks.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Oregon State University, and a number of commercial breweries (including coors and rock bottom) have run tests, and found that they didn't get any more discernible hop aroma or flavor when they added more than .5lb/bbl of dry hops in a single addition. Any more hops than that (~1.3-1.6oz in 5 gallons) were deemed a waste.
Many brewers have found that adding more than one addition of .5lb/bbl does increase hop aroma and flavor. There's really no hard science behind it at this point, as I've yet to hear anyone describe why it works. I can tell you empirically, that it does work though.
If you want to prove it to yourself, Split a batch of beer. Dry hop one fermenter with 4.5oz of hops once. Dry hop the other with 3 1.5oz additions split across two weeks. Then see which has better hop aroma.
That's good to know, though I don't think I said it didn't work?
scottland
Well-Known Member
I hear you. I was quoting you who was quoting abrix.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
hop aroma doesn't completely fade in just a few days so even if the earlier stages of dry hopping are a few to several days old you still will have aroma from those additions as well as stronger aroma from the later additions
i haven't seen much on full extraction in just a day but would love to read up on it if you have and links etc
There's some mentions, of full extraction happening pretty quickly, in the new hops book.
scottland
Well-Known Member
OSU did the research on that. Here's their thesis: http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf?sequence=1
They found that pellets reached maximum extraction in like 2-4 hours, which needless to say, turns our practices on their head. I'm definitely going to do some experiments with this in the future.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I've talked to some people there in the program at length about this study. Very interesting results. Make sure you look into the variables in which they do the study, as far as temps, pressure, rousing with CO2, etc. I have been doing 24 hour dry hops for the last few months and my aromas have never been better. Loose pellets, rouse every few hours with CO2, warm, great aroma.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Ya. It's definitely re-enforced shorter dry hops. Following Firestone Walker's techniques, I've moved to 3-4 day dry hops, and now looking at these numbers, I might even move to shorter ones than that.
I'd be very curious to see how our multiple dry hops factor in. I'll rattle off what's running through my head.
A. If we add .5lb/bbl of hops, and stir, does that generate the same level of aroma as 2lbs/bbl of hops that's stirred.
B. If it does, do 4 additions of .5lb/bbl of hops score higher than a single .5lb addition.
C. If it doesn't how do 4 additions of .5lb/bbl kept passive rate compared to 1 addition that's stirred.
There's definitely some really interesting data here.
What kind of device are you using to rouse with CO2?
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
that article is excellent thank you
just skimming through it for now and noticed the section regarding stripping of aroma by liners to bottles and cans. i wonder if HT deteriorates faster than a bottled beer would due to increased exposure to plastic liner in the can
just skimming through it for now and noticed the section regarding stripping of aroma by liners to bottles and cans. i wonder if HT deteriorates faster than a bottled beer would due to increased exposure to plastic liner in the can
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I guess there's a lot of things in brewing that don't seem to make sense at first; the hard science hasn't quite gotten around to explaining everything yet. I will have to try the split batch test to compare sometime. While people usually cite Vinny as the multi-stage dry-hop master, Kern River does it too for their Citra DIPA, and that beer has possibly the second most intense hop aroma I've encountered behind Heady. Wouldn't be surprised if Kimmich is doing this too.
Do you guys doing the multi-stage dry hop additions remove the hops after each addition? Do you think that makes a difference either way?
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
I'm doing a 3 stage dry hop on the Kern River clone I've got going.
I don't do but a 1, maybe 2 stage dry hop normally. Normally in a keg at room temp, then a final smaller one in the keg at serving temp.
I will for sure be able to notice a difference with this recipe.
I don't do but a 1, maybe 2 stage dry hop normally. Normally in a keg at room temp, then a final smaller one in the keg at serving temp.
I will for sure be able to notice a difference with this recipe.
scottland
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that the epoxy-based can liners are different. They don't need to have the sealing properties that bottle cap liners have, and us are a different chemical makeup. I know Sierra Nevada claims much more shelf stability in the cans.ni can tell you I've had some not-so-fresh cans from them that still tasted fantastic.
I'd actually bet Heady last longer in cans than say Pliny in bottles. Which also possibly explains why people that have had Pliny on tap hold it in much higher regard than those that have had it from the bottle.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I now loose dry hop in corny kegs and shoot a blast or two of CO2 into the diptube every few hours.
One of the goals of the OSU hop study is to reduce brewery costs while getting the same results. What they wanted to do was figure out if breweries could change techniques to use less hops and get the same aroma.
I have done this technique on my heady clone attempts and the aroma is as strong, if not stronger than week-old Heady. Single stage btw.
Kern also dry hops citra under pressure. Kyle said it can get up to 10 psi in their tanks,dry hop, vent dry hop, vent dry hop and so on
Giving this the old College try on Sunday. I have a Conan starter stirring up, and will be doing the following partial mash recipe on a new brewer's equipment.
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Batch size: 5.5 gallon
Partial Mash
IIPA
Est. OG - 1.073
Est. FG: 1.014
SRM: 7
IBUs: 117.0
Est. ABV: 8.0%
Yeast: Harvest Conan
Starter: Yes (1.5L)
Yeast Est. Att: 82%
Brewhouse efficiency: (Est. 80%)
Conversion/Sacch Temp. (Mash-in): 150F @ 60 min.
Ferment temp: ?F
Grain Bill:
%grist Wt. Type Use
38% 4lb 8oz Thomas Fawcett Pearl Mash
26% 3lb Briess DME Golden Light Boil
13% 1lb 8oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) Boil
9% 1lb Briess Sparkling Amber DME Boil
9% 1lb Munich Malt Mash
4% 8oz Briess White Wheat Malt Mash
2% 4oz Thomas Fawcett Caramalt Mash
Hop Schedule:
Use Time Qty(oz.) Type~form AA% » IBU
boil 60 min 2 Magnum ~ leaf 14.0 » 75.8
boil 5 min 1 Amarillo ~ pellet 7.0 » 4.2
boil 5 min 1 Cascade ~ pellet 6.4 » 3.8
boil 5 min 1 Centurion (Centennial Type) ~ pellet 9.7 » 5.8
boil 5 min 1 Columbus ~ pellet 15.4 » 9.1
boil 5 min 1 Simcoe ~ pellet 13.0 » 7.7
boil 5 min 1 Summit ~ pellet 18.0 » 10.7
post 30 min 1 Amarillo ~ pellet 7.0 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Cascade ~ pellet 6.4 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Centurion (Centennial Type) ~ pellet 9.7 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Columbus ~ pellet 15.4 » 0.0
postl 30 min 1 Simcoe ~ pellet 13.0 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Summit ~ pellet 18.0 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 1 Amarillo ~ pellet 7.0 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 1 Cascade ~ leaf 5.0 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 2 Centurion (Centennial Type) ~ pellet 9.7 »
dry hop 3 days 1 Columbus ~ pellet 15.4 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 2 Simcoe ~ pellet 13.0 » 0.0
1oz Irish Moss @ 15 min.
1tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 15 min.
\
Batch size: 5.5 gallon
Partial Mash
IIPA
Est. OG - 1.073
Est. FG: 1.014
SRM: 7
IBUs: 117.0
Est. ABV: 8.0%
Yeast: Harvest Conan
Starter: Yes (1.5L)
Yeast Est. Att: 82%
Brewhouse efficiency: (Est. 80%)
Conversion/Sacch Temp. (Mash-in): 150F @ 60 min.
Ferment temp: ?F
Grain Bill:
%grist Wt. Type Use
38% 4lb 8oz Thomas Fawcett Pearl Mash
26% 3lb Briess DME Golden Light Boil
13% 1lb 8oz Sugar, Table (Sucrose) Boil
9% 1lb Briess Sparkling Amber DME Boil
9% 1lb Munich Malt Mash
4% 8oz Briess White Wheat Malt Mash
2% 4oz Thomas Fawcett Caramalt Mash
Hop Schedule:
Use Time Qty(oz.) Type~form AA% » IBU
boil 60 min 2 Magnum ~ leaf 14.0 » 75.8
boil 5 min 1 Amarillo ~ pellet 7.0 » 4.2
boil 5 min 1 Cascade ~ pellet 6.4 » 3.8
boil 5 min 1 Centurion (Centennial Type) ~ pellet 9.7 » 5.8
boil 5 min 1 Columbus ~ pellet 15.4 » 9.1
boil 5 min 1 Simcoe ~ pellet 13.0 » 7.7
boil 5 min 1 Summit ~ pellet 18.0 » 10.7
post 30 min 1 Amarillo ~ pellet 7.0 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Cascade ~ pellet 6.4 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Centurion (Centennial Type) ~ pellet 9.7 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Columbus ~ pellet 15.4 » 0.0
postl 30 min 1 Simcoe ~ pellet 13.0 » 0.0
post 30 min 1 Summit ~ pellet 18.0 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 1 Amarillo ~ pellet 7.0 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 1 Cascade ~ leaf 5.0 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 2 Centurion (Centennial Type) ~ pellet 9.7 »
dry hop 3 days 1 Columbus ~ pellet 15.4 » 0.0
dry hop 3 days 2 Simcoe ~ pellet 13.0 » 0.0
1oz Irish Moss @ 15 min.
1tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 15 min.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
This is one part of my process I'm trying to get rid of. No venting. A couple months ago I was sitting there venting and the kegerator was full of hop aroma. I stopped and said, why am I doing this? The whole goal is to keep the aroma in there, why would I recklessly let it vent out? So, now it's 1 dry hop addition, no venting, then a sealed transfer keg to serving keg under pressure.
Obviously Kern River is making excellent beer venting, but I'm sticking with no vent, less hops.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
do you use a screen over the diptube to block the hop debris? is that the main reason for the transfer to a new keg?
What I don't get - we initially thought OG 1.070-71 with an FG of 1.010 and no sugar used. This is obtainable with low mashing and the high attenuation of Conan. Why is it that we now are measuring a higher FG (1.014) and we think there is sugar being used in the grist? It makes no sense to me - sugar makes it more fermentable/higher attenuation yet we are seeing the opposite.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I really tried to push the limits on my last attempt and failed. Not that I didn't expect to, but I ended up at 1.018. Basically, mashed at 155, underpitched a bit, and got rid of the dextrose. A more common sense approach would have been to meet somewhere in the middle to get to 1.014, I am now on both sides, 1.010 and 1.018. Half way should do it. I think I will brew again tomorrow, 152 mash temp, 0.5 pounds of Dextrose, fairly normal pitch rate, and ferment at 68.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
Well, it's a 4 or 5 ounce dry hop, so I don't want all that crap in the keg. I don't screen, just swap out the connectors on the keg before you begin, so the liquid out is on the gas line post and the gas is in on the diptube. That way you can easily rouse the hops via the diptube and when ready to transfer, use the liquid out post to do so.
What you'd do when you're read is just put the keg on it's side, with the gas post facing the ground, elevate the top of the keg just an inch, and let sit for 15 minutes. Then connect the gas line to the top connector at 5psi or so, and connect a liquid line to the gas in connector at the bottom. Connect the other side to a 5psi pressure serving keg (diptube side, no reversed connectors). Then vent pressure on serving keg and the beer will transfer under pressure to the new keg, most all the hops are left in the first keg, no screen needed, no clogs.
FATC1TY
Well-Known Member
hopstupid said:
That's what I heard as well. I have a clone of Citra going now with Conan doing the work to it. Should be a nice mash up to try out techniques on a beer that is cloned well enough. I plan to dry hop in the keg and rouse with co2
By the way. This clone while not exact is freakin unreal so far. I kept it all where the clone was except for using pearl malt instead of two row and used Conan as the yeast. Wow the aroma is out of this world in my fermenter. I will use this yeast on all my ipas now.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
Yep....them Conan are frisky buggers. 1 can harvest, second step to 800ml, and the starter's already creamy white with a kreusen.
I'm thinking I'll need a blowoff tube for the 1L step:cross:
I'm thinking I'll need a blowoff tube for the 1L step:cross:
Xpertskir
Well-Known Member
Ive got some conan spinning as we speak and am planning a nugget nectar-esque imp amber for this weekend. I think the peach in the conan will play really well with the nugget peach/herbal qualities.
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I just did a side by side with a Heady and a local IPA here called Boneyard RPM IPA. I only used Heady as an SRM gauge for the other beer, I'm trying to clone that one, and I noticed how Heady's head color is not pure white, it's sort of cream colored, it has some color, unlike Boneyard, which was pure white. Not sure if that means something for us, maybe a certain grain that causes that that someone could know off the top of their head.
Boneyard is a 1.010 beer, and tasting them side by side, Heady was just not right. Heady is much sweeter than I ever thought it was when next to a drier beer.
I can't help but feel I'm stuck between trying to create a beer that I once had and then tasting it side by side with a beer that is different now. The recipe definitely changed sometime late last year.
Boneyard is a 1.010 beer, and tasting them side by side, Heady was just not right. Heady is much sweeter than I ever thought it was when next to a drier beer.
I can't help but feel I'm stuck between trying to create a beer that I once had and then tasting it side by side with a beer that is different now. The recipe definitely changed sometime late last year.
scottland
Well-Known Member
Remember perceived sweetness from certain esters and hops can make things taste very different. Some yeast strains, and hops like Centennial, Amarillo, Citra, etc will lend a sweetness to a beer despite the actual beer tasting dry.
I've never had heady, so this purely conjecture. Just offering a counterpoint before you go change you're whole recipe =)
I've never had heady, so this purely conjecture. Just offering a counterpoint before you go change you're whole recipe =)
LakesideBrewing
Well-Known Member
Are you saying you think Heady is different now?
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
I started a new thread just to discuss Conan so I wouldn't derail the HT clone thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/conan-yeast-experiences-397947/
Would love to hear experiences, details etc for anyone that's been using Conan in HT clones or other beers
I def plan on keeping this strain around and using it in a number of different styles
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/conan-yeast-experiences-397947/
Would love to hear experiences, details etc for anyone that's been using Conan in HT clones or other beers
I def plan on keeping this strain around and using it in a number of different styles
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theveganbrewer
Well-Known Member
I am almost completely convinced it's different now. On the perceived sweetness, it's real, the FG is 1.014, that's high for a dry IPA. Kimmich said that he hates sweetness then brews something that ends at 1.014 on purpose. Doesn't make sense to me. Don't think it was always a 1.014, I believe it was 1.010 at a time. Not sure the reasoning behind the change, maybe they just f'd up a batch when they increased capacity. Don't know. Will have some fresh brews here in a couple days to see if it's still 1.014.
It's also much clearer now. The recent HT I drank had no yeast sediment, resiny hop particles, or floaties. While not crystal clear, it was rather clear and vibrant orange in hue. I think John may be taking real steps to limit the haze; and this makes it harder to harvest Conan as a byproduct.
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
i am currently stepping up a harvest of a single can that was packaged mid feb
immediately noticed how much less debris there was and was a bit concerned about harvesting but i've got a thriving starter going now, more active and foaming more than any other starter i've seen on a stir plate actually had it foam over in my 3000ml flask. steps were 200ml, added 1250ml a few days later, then cold crashed and added around 2800+ml of wort
Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I made a successful starter with it as well. But I was concerned having realized that it looked and tasted a bit different from how I initially remembered it to be. I definitely sensed the slight sweetness and noticed the improved clarity in my most recent HT.
JBCSL
Well-Known Member
I just opened a can last night and it was loaded with chunks. Maybe like home bottling, when they get closer to the end of the tank they get more sediment in the cans?
Since the yeast has a strong effect on the flavor maybe the taste difference you are getting is dependent on how much of the sediment makes it to that particular can. I'm sure there is a marked difference in the amount of sediment from the first case that is canned to the last.
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