roncruiser
Well-Known Member
This morning, racked to secondary for dry hopping. Tucked in at a cozy 68F.
Heady Topper- Can you clone it?
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Didn't Kimmich also say in the Chop and Brew video that time from brew day to finish was 21 days? If so, it is likely dry hopping is being done at lower temps.
What's your source for that?
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Are you really John Kimmich? Fess up.
Nope, Stowe is a 4-1/2 hour drive from where I live. To me the Simcoe really hits you in the face when you open the can. Really dank and no other hop comes close. I might do a beer run next year when the new brewery opens.
It's a valid source.
https://youtu.be/amgfgU5-lhs
In the above video, Kimmich states HT is 28 days old when it is released. I assumed it must condition in the can for some period of time (meaning brew to can was about 3 to 3.5 weeks), but maybe not. At max, he clearly states 28 days till release in this video.
Cheers,
Ben
In the above video, Kimmich states HT is 28 days old when it is released. I assumed it must condition in the can for some period of time (meaning brew to can was about 3 to 3.5 weeks), but maybe not. At max, he clearly states 28 days till release in this video.
Cheers,
Ben
Aaaaah, that actually makes sense. Definitely does not dry hop at this temperature as this would occur on days 10 to 14. It is then cold conditioned for two weeks. 28 days total.
So basically 10 day fermentation, with a big 4 day dry hop, then cold conditioned for 14 days,and they are canning on day 28 last day of the 14 day cold condition.
Wonder if he ever thought his interviews would get dissected like we are doing to them lol
Wonder if he ever thought his interviews would get dissected like we are doing to them lol
MadHomebrewer
Well-Known Member
I would think they would can after the dry hop. Let it cold condition in the cans then ship them out. Did you see something saying they can on day 28?
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Let's break it down and compile this information by the following in days:
Fermentation: days?
Dry Hop : 4-5 days
Condition : days?
https://youtu.be/LdfySDN2mF0
Time 43:17: Ph 5.1-5.3 (Taken at mash temp.)
Time:1:01:39: 4-5 days dry hopping
Time:1:01:55: All pellets used. No whole hops.
Time:1:02:21: Does not boil hops. Co2 bittering extract only.
Video notes :
Cans released on 28th day.
Proprietary dry hopping techniques.
During whirlpool, liquid is not pumped. The sheer of the impeller affects the hop oil as it goes through.
Liquid is moved with gas.
Confirmed Ph was taken at mash temp. Stated here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6061974&postcount=55
Kimmich also points out the beer is moved by gas. He mentions the shear of a pump impeller affects the delicate hop oils.
Fermentation: days?
Dry Hop : 4-5 days
Condition : days?
https://youtu.be/LdfySDN2mF0
Time 43:17: Ph 5.1-5.3 (Taken at mash temp.)
Time:1:01:39: 4-5 days dry hopping
Time:1:01:55: All pellets used. No whole hops.
Time:1:02:21: Does not boil hops. Co2 bittering extract only.
Video notes :
Cans released on 28th day.
Proprietary dry hopping techniques.
During whirlpool, liquid is not pumped. The sheer of the impeller affects the hop oil as it goes through.
Liquid is moved with gas.
Confirmed Ph was taken at mash temp. Stated here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=6061974&postcount=55
Kimmich also points out the beer is moved by gas. He mentions the shear of a pump impeller affects the delicate hop oils.
Last edited:
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
I'd say hop the heck out of it during the dry hopping stages.
Bobbrews recipe suggests 2 stages over 8 days because we simply don't have the same dry hopping techniques as The Alchemist. Obviously.
I truly believe the dry hopping schedule is still open for interpretation. If anything, dry hop bigger.
Bobbrews recipe suggests 2 stages over 8 days because we simply don't have the same dry hopping techniques as The Alchemist. Obviously.
I truly believe the dry hopping schedule is still open for interpretation. If anything, dry hop bigger.
I want to point out it was confirmed later that his comments about pH were at mash temps. This was discussed earlier in this thread. I will look and see if I can find the comment number or quote it.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=465320
See above thread, it is believed that Kimmich was referring to mash temperature ph, not room temperature pH which is what we usually talk about.
See above thread, it is believed that Kimmich was referring to mash temperature ph, not room temperature pH which is what we usually talk about.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=477834&page=6
This thread looked into the 750 ppm hardness quote from Kimmich and if you use the info combined with the suspected malt bill, you get a mash pH of 5.4 if you plug it into Brun water or similar water calculation sheet. I found the same thing when I entered the formula into Beersmith and Brun water. Measured pH of mash on brew day with pH meter was 5.0, or 5.3 room temp.
This thread looked into the 750 ppm hardness quote from Kimmich and if you use the info combined with the suspected malt bill, you get a mash pH of 5.4 if you plug it into Brun water or similar water calculation sheet. I found the same thing when I entered the formula into Beersmith and Brun water. Measured pH of mash on brew day with pH meter was 5.0, or 5.3 room temp.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Documented that in my summary post.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
I've attempted 4 HT clones. All using The Yeast Bays Vermont Ale yeast.
I was watching the Chop & Brew video and what caught my attention was when they asked John Kimmich about Conan. His answer got into how many generations they use. I believe he says that after 10 generations "we buy more". That could mean someone is banking it for him, or it could mean that Conan is a standard strain. And then in the next sentence he goes on talking about "other British yeasts from Wyeast". This to me really backs up the rumor that Conan is actually London Ale III. I've used Conan cultured from a can, Omega's Conan strain, and London Ale III, and I have to say, they are all very similar.
They are very similar. Regardless, Wyeast does maintain the Alchemist's "private yeast strain."
it means someone is banking it for him.
youreanimpulse
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I've used Gigayeast Conan, Yeast Bay Conan and Conan grown at home from a can. All behaved basically the same. I use London Ale III all the time and it behaves quite differently and the character isn't all that similar IMO. I have liked it better so far, although I'm trying the Imperial Barbarian now, so back to Conan.
I agree - I have found little to no difference in cultured Conan from a can and Gigayeast Conan. I also agree that there is a fairly significant difference to London Ale III...... Flocculation for sure for starters. London Ale III stays in suspension forever.
:beard:
This is the guy you should be asking that to with his mysterious sources.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
So what temperature does John K. dry hop?
VPB-1188 aka Conan yeast was originally brought back from the UK by the late Greg Noonan. He used the yeast at the Vermont Brew Pub. When John Kimmich started the Alchemist, he got permission from Greg to use the yeast.
Start the fermentation at 68deg and raise by one deg per day until you hit 72 deg and then let it finish. A lot of the fruity character in Heady comes from Conan.
Start the fermentation at 68deg and raise by one deg per day until you hit 72 deg and then let it finish. A lot of the fruity character in Heady comes from Conan.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Lots of conflicting statements for starting fermentation temp. I'll try starting at 68F ending with 72F with the next batch. Prior I've started with 64F ending with 70F.
Those fermentation temps are based off of other recipes from Kimmich such as Moose Knuckle and the Black IPA El Jefe.
"The Alchemist house yeast strain is “Conan.” Pitch low at 6–7 million cells/mL, and start at 68° F (20° C)"
As for dry hopping the following should sound familiar, it's directly from the El Jefe recipe published in the IPA book.
"At the end of fermentation, chill to 42° F (6° C) and hold for three days. Remove the yeast and dry hop with fresh Simcoe pellets at a ratio of 0.83 oz./ gal. (1.6 lb./bbl., 6.2 g/L). Rouse hops two to three times with CO2 over a week, then separate the beer from the hops and age cold another two weeks"
From the BYO article Advanced Dry Hopping "you may be surprised to learn that John Kimmich dry hops with under 4 oz. (113 g) per 5 gallons (19 L)" It says just under 4 oz, but 0.083 oz x 5 gallons = 4.15 oz
I have to admit that the Conan cultured from the can had more of the stone fruit (mostly peach) character than either Omega DIPA Ale or London Ale III had.
ultravista
Well-Known Member
Here's what I received today from John K. regarding Dry Hopping.
1. One or two dry hop additions?
A: One
2. How many days per dry hop?
A: More than one, not more than 4.
3. What is the beer temperature during the dry hop stages?
A: 34
For the last question, I will assume that is 34F not 34C (93.2F).
So Heady is dry hopped near freezing temperature. This is contrary to what most brewers do at 68-70F.
With that said, will a dry hop @ 34F produce different results than one @ 68-70F?
1. One or two dry hop additions?
A: One
2. How many days per dry hop?
A: More than one, not more than 4.
3. What is the beer temperature during the dry hop stages?
A: 34
For the last question, I will assume that is 34F not 34C (93.2F).
So Heady is dry hopped near freezing temperature. This is contrary to what most brewers do at 68-70F.
With that said, will a dry hop @ 34F produce different results than one @ 68-70F?
geoffey
Well-Known Member
ultravista
Well-Known Member
I did ask for his reasoning behind 34F. Does it improve results or is a matter of production/process to brighten and infuse at the same time?
something to keep in mind is that Kimmich's temps, hopping ammount, etc produce those results on his system. these results won't necessarily hold at the homebrew level. brewing 5 gallons has different dynamics than 15 barrels. having 15 barrels (or whatever his batch size is) of pressure on top of the yeast cake changes the ester profile. his hop utilization is different than mine- i'm not getting that much aroma at 4 oz/5 gals. he likely exposes his beer to a lot less oxygen than homebrewers do. etc...
instead of worrying about doing X because that's exactly what kimmich does, we should be translating what he is doing to the homebrew scale. for example, if all that pressure is suppressing esters on the commercial scale, then maybe he can get away with starting at 68*F while we should go with 64*F...
blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.
instead of worrying about doing X because that's exactly what kimmich does, we should be translating what he is doing to the homebrew scale. for example, if all that pressure is suppressing esters on the commercial scale, then maybe he can get away with starting at 68*F while we should go with 64*F...
blindly following what a commercial brewer does is rarely going to yield the same result.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Not many know exactly what Kimmich does in his HT dry hopping process. So, really there's no blindly following anything if you don't know important details about the process in the first place. It helps to know and understand what he does in order to begin to translate it to the homebrewing level. Any bit of information helps.
roncruiser
Well-Known Member
Either his dry hop schedule or process has changed, or he's throwing in misdirection. I'm going with the former. In the video he states 4-5 days. My belief is he's getting better with hop utilization. He's gone from 5 days max down to 4 days max.
Maybe, maybe not, but it's a good starting point. The "Can You Brew it" clone episodes followed the recipes from the breweries exactly and they got exact results.
I would dry hop with 1 oz per gallon mainly due to not having ingredients that are as fresh as the Alchemist can get.
Interesting. That's how I've been doing my dry hopping for a while. Near freezing, under pressure and occasionally pumping co2 in the down stem. I did that last part by accident once and figured it wasn't a bad idea
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