Well, in theory & my own experiences, boling light wort gives better hop utilization than a mere simmer, which seems to me would be a bit below 212F. I gotta measure that someday to get some numbers.
Funny things you've overheard about beer
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kombat
Well-Known Member
At sea-level pressure, water boils at 212° F, no matter how much heat you're applying. You could put a jet engine under your kettle and light the afterburners, and the water in the pot would still only be exactly 212° F. All that would change would be the rate that the water is converted to steam.
A "simmer", to me, means there is still some bubbling action on the surface, which means that water is being converted to steam, which is technically a boil. That means the water must be 212° F. If it were even a degree less, then none of the water would convert to steam, and the surface of the water would be still.
Yeah, maybe. A simmer being lightly bubbling with the heat turned down for less boiling seemed to me to be below 212F. That's why I think I'll measure this just to see for myself...
kombat
Well-Known Member
Go for it, now you've got me interested. I could be mis-remembering my high-school physics, but as I recall, at standard atmospheric pressure, water converts to steam at 100° C (212° F). You cannot have water at standard atmospheric pressure at a temperature higher than 212° F. It will turn into steam. The only way to get water hotter than 212° and remain in a liquid state is to increase the pressure. This is how pressure cookers and pressure canners work. By increasing the pressure to 15 psi, you can heat water up above 250° F without it turning into steam. But if you popped the lid off of that pressure cooker (DO NOT do this, by the way), all of that water would instantly (and quite explosively) turn into steam.
Conversely (and we did this in chemistry class), if you decrease the pressure, you can get water to boil at considerably less than 100° C. In a lab experiment, we actually got water to boil at room temperature by simply removing air from the vessel.
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yes - test it. Kombat is talking about a Canadian boil - not an American boil 
Well, I like to get a good strong boil going at first to ensure a good hot break, but after that I pretty much bring it down to a simmer. I dont see anything wrong with it.
Next time I'm simmering something, I'll toss a floating thermometer in it to check the temp on an average simmer. I just think it'd be a couple degrees below a boil? It'll be interesting to find out.
Hamaki
Well-Known Member
I'd venture a guess that there may be some stratification. At the heat source water could be 212 (or less, depending on altitude) but depending on evaporative cooling near the surface could be a degree or two cooler. Sometimes in clear water before a good boil gets going I can see small bubbles form, lift off the heating element, then disappear before breaking the surface. I haven't checked surface water temp but maybe I'll think of it next time.
beergolf
Well-Known Member
What? A boil is a boil. Hard boil or simmer. Does not matter. That is not that hard to understand.
This^^^^^^
The increased physical movement of the wort may effect the rate of extraction but the temp would be the same from simmer to vigorous boil. It is most likely the reason some report a small loss of utilization using a hop spider vs. free floating the hops. Whether this really makes a measurable difference is up for debate.
There is a reason that most extraction methods use a wrist shaker or some other similar method instead of just allowing your solvent to sit stagnant.
There is a reason that most extraction methods use a wrist shaker or some other similar method instead of just allowing your solvent to sit stagnant.
What I'm saying is if something is on a low simmer, it can't be the same temp as something on a hard rolling boil. If it was, then you couldn't just "simmer".
kombat
Well-Known Member
And what we're saying is, "yes, it is exactly the same temperature." The only difference is the rate at which water is being converted to steam. The water itself is still exactly 212° F in both cases (at least, according to physics).
http://www.cookinglight.com/cooking-101/techniques/cooking-class-boiling-and-simmering said:
Looks like we are confused with the definition of simmering. A simmer is preboil where its just hot. I think what we are referring to has been the difference between a gentle boil and a rolling boil.
TheCADJockey
ALL YOUR BASE
Simmer down now.
kombat
Well-Known Member
Yes. I finally looked up the definition and a simmer is preboil. But I had always thought that a simmer was a very low boil. Learn something every day.
hunter_le five
Sheriff Underscore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simmering
Apparently I have been using the term wrong as well. I too thought "simmer" was just "low boil".
Apparently I have been using the term wrong as well. I too thought "simmer" was just "low boil".
Kirkwooder
Emperor of all things nobody cares about
Epic derail once again!
TheCADJockey
ALL YOUR BASE
I've seen epic'er.
That's what I've been trying to say...I just didn't think to call it "pre-boil". I know from cooking for years that a simmer isn't the same temp as a boil.
kombat
Well-Known Member
I guess I've been doing it wrong too, then. When a recipe says "simmer," I've always just had it at barely-boiling. The more you know!
When a recipe says "simmer," I've always just had it at barely-boiling. The more you know!
Union just made us all better chefs. Thanks Union!
GrogNerd
mean old man
physics derail has been done, at least this time it related to brewing
but not funny
but not funny
Black Island Brewer
An Ode to Beer
<munching popcorn>
mcspanner
Well-Known Member
Regardless of the semantics ( and anyone who knows me will be surprised at the fact I just wrote that- I love a good semantically charged argument) I have a suspicion our author friend was not suggesting holding hops in a pre-boil state, rather using the word "simmer" incorrectly as a "low boil".
But....unless you're planning on buying a dessertspoon and actually making one of these recipes; does anybody actually care?
But....unless you're planning on buying a dessertspoon and actually making one of these recipes; does anybody actually care?
mcspanner
Well-Known Member
P.s have we run out of funny overheard things?
1977Brewer
Free Dan Hess.
Being dumb about beer is just white noise to me anyway. I've had to explain so many things to so many people it just isn't funny to me anymore.
Yeah, pretty much. But every now & then, I still have to bite my tongue.
Yeah that makes a lot more sense. However I was kind of laughing to myself about his incompetance in not boiling the wort properly to remove DMS and is neatly averted by his incompetance of not using any base malts at all.
That also means he has more IBUs in his beer than I thought as I was counting his "simmer" as some sort of strange archaic whirlpool when it should probably be a more traditional boil.
BUT if instead of boiling the hops, he`s cooking them for an extended period of time at 190 degrees or somesuch what effect would that have on the beer?
Will talk to my father about how all this crazy **** worked out in actual practice. I remember him telling me how important it is to get the beer off thr yeast cake and into a secondary ASAP after fermentation is done to keep it from getting contaminated by dead yeast that the yeast cake is made out of.
ericbw
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Greg1Cruickshank
Well-Known Member
A few months ago I was talking with my friend's father who typically drinks Coors Light.
I was telling him that I made a dry Irish Stout not too long ago that Id enjoy for him to try. He politely explained to me that he probably wouldn't like it, as he really only enjoys ales.
I was telling him that I made a dry Irish Stout not too long ago that Id enjoy for him to try. He politely explained to me that he probably wouldn't like it, as he really only enjoys ales.
If I buy the $200 bubble maker, and then dunk a Beer Enhancing Sachet, did I just make the Best Beer In The world!!!???
only if you make an 8 minute video of your counter top.
We should rename this thread "Amtrak". That wasn't funny either.
fuzzy2133
Well-Known Member
At a tasting while I waited my turn.
I'll have what you got that is not bitter.
Well that leaves our Scottish ale.
Is that dark like guiness?
Um well how bow about between bud and guiness?
Pour it.
(Sniffs and takes a sip)
Wow that tastes so much better can I sample the other beers?
Yes that's why I am here.
I'll have what you got that is not bitter.
Well that leaves our Scottish ale.
Is that dark like guiness?
Um well how bow about between bud and guiness?
Pour it.
(Sniffs and takes a sip)
Wow that tastes so much better can I sample the other beers?
Yes that's why I am here.
Local brewpub yesterday, where I tend to hand around the bar. Most of the folk working there are both nice and knowledgeabel, but this one guy had me a bit baffled, especially cause he has been working the craft beer area for years.
Girl comes up, asks for a recommendation, stating that she likes Pilsners and nothing too bitter and hoppy, as she usually is a wine person. Fair enough I think, and he mentions that they do have a Pilsner on one of the 42 taps, but it is a hoppy one.
Now at this point I´d imagine him pointing to the other Pilsner, which is less hoppy and brewed with a touch of yuzu, or maybe a saison, or perhaps the dryhopped sours which share a lot of white wine and sparkly wine character. Maybe even the great apple cider or mead. Heck, maybe the golden ale.
But no. For some bloody reason that is beyond me he recommends, and sells the poor girl, a stout, and a dry, bitter, american rye stout at that.
I gave her the proper recommendations while he poured it, without commenting on the stout. She thanked me later and told me just what I thought she would. Might even have converted her. =)
Girl comes up, asks for a recommendation, stating that she likes Pilsners and nothing too bitter and hoppy, as she usually is a wine person. Fair enough I think, and he mentions that they do have a Pilsner on one of the 42 taps, but it is a hoppy one.
Now at this point I´d imagine him pointing to the other Pilsner, which is less hoppy and brewed with a touch of yuzu, or maybe a saison, or perhaps the dryhopped sours which share a lot of white wine and sparkly wine character. Maybe even the great apple cider or mead. Heck, maybe the golden ale.
But no. For some bloody reason that is beyond me he recommends, and sells the poor girl, a stout, and a dry, bitter, american rye stout at that.
I gave her the proper recommendations while he poured it, without commenting on the stout. She thanked me later and told me just what I thought she would. Might even have converted her. =)
