First timer with questions re: still cider

[swedgin]

Hello folks! I'll break this down for you.



The background:

I'm a first time brewer interested in country wines, ciders, sake and meads primarily. I just went out and made a big purchase for all the equipment I thought I'd need, after doing weeks of research.



The Plan:

For my first ever brew, I decided on Ed Wort's Apfelwein, before changing my mind and deciding on Dave's Caramel Apple Cider, as both are fairly simple recipes. I'll be using White Labs Nottingham yeast.


The Concern:

I am somewhat intimidated by bottle bombs like most first time brewers. As such, I would like to do a sweet, still cider first. I'd like to avoid pasteurizing if possible. I have no refrigerator space, so cold crashing is out of the question. I would prefer to use fermentable sugars to back sweeten as opposed to artificial sweeteners or xylitol.


TLDR; The Questions:

-If I want to make a sweet still cider, how do I go about doing this? Do I kill the yeast, back sweeten and then bottle? How? Is this enough or is there still a risk of bottle bombs?

-What kind of bottles should I bottle a sweet, still cider in? Does it even matter? Where possible I'd like to bottle in larger sized bottles (wine sized).

-How/where should I store these bottles after all is said and done? Is a cool, dark place sufficient (garage, closet)?


Thanks you guys. Look forward to hearing what you've got for me and eager to get going on this brew!

 

[AidanSavage]

Hello folks! I'll break this down for you.



The background:

I'm a first time brewer interested in country wines, ciders, sake and meads primarily. I just went out and made a big purchase for all the equipment I thought I'd need, after doing weeks of research.



The Plan:

For my first ever brew, I decided on Ed Wort's Apfelwein, before changing my mind and deciding on Dave's Caramel Apple Cider, as both are fairly simple recipes. I'll be using White Labs Nottingham yeast.


The Concern:

I am somewhat intimidated by bottle bombs like most first time brewers. As such, I would like to do a sweet, still cider first. I'd like to avoid pasteurizing if possible. I have no refrigerator space, so cold crashing is out of the question. I would prefer to use fermentable sugars to back sweeten as opposed to artificial sweeteners or xylitol.


TLDR; The Questions:

-If I want to make a sweet still cider, how do I go about doing this? Do I kill the yeast, back sweeten and then bottle? How? Is this enough or is there still a risk of bottle bombs?

-What kind of bottles should I bottle a sweet, still cider in? Does it even matter? Where possible I'd like to bottle in larger sized bottles (wine sized).

-How/where should I store these bottles after all is said and done? Is a cool, dark place sufficient (garage, closet)?


Thanks you guys. Look forward to hearing what you've got for me and eager to get going on this brew!

If you're doing a still cider, and you want to sweeten it with fermentables, you NEED to pasteurize if you do not have cold storage available. That's the long and short of a sweet still cider. If you do not pasteurize, any yeast remaining in the cider will pick up fermentation inside whatever you bottle with if you do not store at cold temps. Otherwise you're basically making bottle bombs. Pasteurizing immediately after bottling is not a difficult task, as you can do it immediately after bottling if everything's at room temp. No risk of blowing anything either.

If you cannot get champagne bottles, get the 12oz beer bottles. Wine bottles are not meant to be bottled with carbonated liquids, or those that can potentially carbonate, which is the case with unpasteurized "naturally" sweetened cider. Once bottled, a closet or garage is good enough to store in, just move them into the fridge a couple at a time when you drink them. Best served cold.



edit: did...I just break the thread?

 

[swedgin]

Ok, that's what I was afraid of. So champagne bottles... when I pasteurize/bottle with these, should they be capped or corked?

Also, would I need to campden/sorbate the must before back sweetening, and then pasteurize? Or just back sweeten then pasteurize?

Sorry if my questions are totally basic.

 

[swedgin]

I have no idea what happened to the forum.

 

[phug]

If it's a still cider you can do wine bottles. Just make sure it's fully debased. And that fermentation has completely halted prior to bottling and after sweetening. Pasteurizing is only iffy if your product is carbed.

 

[swedgin]

If it's a still cider you can do wine bottles. Just make sure it's fully debased. And that fermentation has completely halted prior to bottling and after sweetening. Pasteurizing is only iffy if your product is carbed.

1. What do you mean 'debased?'

2. Won't fermentation pick back up once I back sweeten?

 

[Lodestone]

I am assuming he meant degassed

 

[phug]

Yes, degassed.

It won't referment if you properly pasteurize or stabilize with campden and potassium sorbate,

 

[swedgin]

Double post

 

[swedgin]

Ok, so if I understand correctly,

Wait for fermentation to end
Degas
Campden/sorbate
Back sweeten
Bottle in wine bottles
Store in cool, dark place


Doing those things in that order will be sufficient and not create glass grenades?

 

[Yooper]

Ok, so if I understand correctly,

Wait for fermentation to end
Degas
Campden/sorbate
Back sweeten
Bottle in wine bottles
Store in cool, dark place


Doing those things in that order will be sufficient and not create glass grenades?

Wait for fermentation to end, rack to a new vessel and ensure no new lees fall (sediment). If there is ANY sediment after 60 days, rack again.
No need to degas- it will happen naturally
Sorbate/campden- wait three days
Sweeten to taste
Bottle in whatever you'd like- wine bottles, beer bottles, soda bottles, it doesn't matter
And yes, store in a dark place.

 

[swedgin]

Perfect, thank you.

Not a lot of info I could find out there for sweet still ciders.

 

[swedgin]

A few more questions:

How long can you let a batch sit in primary after it's gone 'dry?'

Can I put the sorbate and campden in before the batch runs completely dry, say, at 1.005 - 1.000, and then rack, back sweeten and bottle?

How many days of unchanging gravity is a good indicator that fermentation has ceased (or is there a better measure of this)?

Thank you!

 

[phug]

Ok, so if I understand correctly,

Wait for fermentation to end
Degas
Campden/sorbate

I think you're supposed to wait 24 hours here?

Back sweeten

Wait to ensure that there are no signs of renewed fermentation

Bottle in wine bottles
Store in cool, dark place


Doing those things in that order will be sufficient and not create glass grenades?

My information is based off of other people's information and not my own experience. You could try wandering over to the winemaking section, or waiting to see what our vintners have to say.

 

[Maylar]

A few more questions:

How long can you let a batch sit in primary after it's gone 'dry?'

Most of us like to rack to secondary before "dry", at about 1005 - 1.010 SG. That can be anywhere from 1 to 4 weeks depending on temperature and yeast. I have had people notice a "yeasty" taste to my cider when I've let it sit in primary too long.

Can I put the sorbate and campden in before the batch runs completely dry, say, at 1.005 - 1.000, and then rack, back sweeten and bottle?

No. You need to let it sit until no more lees are forming.

How many days of unchanging gravity is a good indicator that fermentation has ceased (or is there a better measure of this)?

Depends on what your next step will be. For my process, once at 0.995 for a few days it's done. But I don't use sorbate or age my cider for months so what's done for me might not be done for you.

 

[swedgin]

Is it ok to have a little cider pushed into your airlock, or should it be swapped immediately?

It doesn't look like it's going to push further, the water in the airlock just has a little color.

 

[AidanSavage]

Is it ok to have a little cider pushed into your airlock, or should it be swapped immediately?

It doesn't look like it's going to push further, the water in the airlock just has a little color.

Best to change it asap in my opinion. Less risk of something growing in the airlock and dropping into the cider.

 

[swedgin]

Cool, thanks for the prompt reply. Will change right now.

 

[swedgin]

Switched the water for vodka (all I had was expensive) and it's chugging away at 1+ bubble per second @~64F.

 

[swedgin]

Checked on it again twice. 9pm, looking good. 1am, foam all up in my vodka airlock. Changed airlocks again.


Pictured above, I have the airlock all the way into the stopper; the stem is sticking part way out of the bottom. The stopper is in as far as I could get it.

Do I have too little headspace? Do I have the stopper and/or the airlock too far into the carboy? Should I just go with a 'blow off tube?'

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[MarkKF]

I use the 3 piece style airlock for the first week. There is very little chance of suck back then and it's much easier to clean. I also go with more headspace at first. When it slows I rack to a smaller carboy and use an S style airlock with very little headspace.

 

[phug]

And don't worry about how far in te airlock is as long as the tip hasn't dipped into your cider

 

[swedgin]

Think I'm good. Seems my fermentation just went super aggressive on me for 36 hours, but now it's relaxed a bit.

I think it knows I went and bought a blow off tube.

 

[MindenMan]

Where is the plastic cover that is supposed to be on top of the airlock? It vents the pressure and prevents anything airborne from dropping in.

 

[swedgin]

It's on there; it's just hard to see in the pic.

 

[ericbw]

Next time, use a blow off tube. Run a tube from the stopper into a bottle filled halfway with sanitizer. I use a 1 liter soda bottle. I THINK it's ok to use weak/diluted sanitizer or bleach water.

After a few days, you can change to the airlock. That way you're only messing with it once and avoiding contamination.

We had some 1 gallon batches of cider that needed a blowoff for about 2 weeks. Usually it's a few days or a week at most.

 

[ericbw]

A few more questions:

How long can you let a batch sit in primary after it's gone 'dry?'

Can I put the sorbate and campden in before the batch runs completely dry, say, at 1.005 - 1.000, and then rack, back sweeten and bottle?

How many days of unchanging gravity is a good indicator that fermentation has ceased (or is there a better measure of this)?

Thank you!

Btw, campden and sorbate won't stop active fermentation. It won't kill the yeast. So you run the risk of more fermentation unless you wait for the yeast to drop out (months and multiple racking a) OR pasteurizing.

It could work or it could not work. It's not certain, but it's a risk that involves flying shards of glass.

 

[MindenMan]

It could take months for your cider to clear, and until it clears there is a risk of active fermentation happening. I am of the school of post fermentation pasteurizing after adding a fermentable sugar, but I do like my cider slightly fizzy, and slightly sweet; that is when I am not making applejack.

 

[swedgin]

I'd like to make a sweet still cider. I'm told that Campden and Sorbate are enough to avoid bottle bombs and cease fermentation for long term storage. I plan to bottle in wine bottles or grolsch bottles primarily.

You think I should pasteurize? MindenMan?

 

[richlong8020]

All my reading leads towards Camden Tablets (crushed, 1 per gal) will stop fermentation. Allowing to back sweeten. I just did a cider and back sweetened with Zylitol.

Still new to ciders myself ( beer for years tho )

I let mine ferment out then racked it to a secondary. Now added the Zylitol but still can't get rid of the "harsh" taste. Does that ever go away?

 

[Yooper]

All my reading leads towards Camden Tablets (crushed, 1 per gal) will stop fermentation. Allowing to back sweeten. I just did a cider and back sweetened with Zylitol.

Still new to ciders myself ( beer for years tho )

I let mine ferment out then racked it to a secondary. Now added the Zylitol but still can't get rid of the "harsh" taste. Does that ever go away?

Campden will NOT stop fermentation. It's used routinely by winemakers as an antioxidant because ale and wine yeast are very tolerant of sulfites.

I've never used zylitol, but aging does do wonderful things for cider.

 

[Yooper]

I'd like to make a sweet still cider. I'm told that Campden and Sorbate are enough to avoid bottle bombs and cease fermentation for long term storage. I plan to bottle in wine bottles or grolsch bottles primarily.

You think I should pasteurize? MindenMan?

If the cider is finished, and clear, then campden and sorbate will allow you to sweeten the cider. If it's not finished and there are a lot of lees (sediment), it won't do anything.

The way it works is that sorbate does not kill yeast, but it prevents yeast reproduction. So, in an active fermentation when there are hundreds and hundreds of billions of active yeast, it won't do a thing. But once fermentation stops, and the cider clears, and the cider is racked off of the fallen yeast, it can be added to prevent yeast reproducing, thereby not allowing fermentation to begin again (usually). Sorbate works better in the presence of sulfite (campden), so they are generally added together.

However, it will NOT stop an active fermentation and will not work in a cider that is not clear and done fermenting.

 

[richlong8020]

So you have to wait until it is all done fermenting, rack it, wait for it to clear, then add the Camden/sorbate? What if you don't mind a "dirty cider"?

 

[MarkKF]

So you have to wait until it is all done fermenting, rack it, wait for it to clear, then add the Camden/sorbate? What if you don't mind a "dirty cider"?

Unless you cold crash it and racket off the yeast cake first.

 

[richlong8020]

Ahhhh that's an idea. What temp. 40s. Something not freezing.

 

[Yooper]

Ahhhh that's an idea. What temp. 40s. Something not freezing.

Yes, but I'd prefer 33-34 degrees if the goal is to get rid of much of the active yeast. The yeast will start up again once the temperature warms up, unless it's flocculated out and racked off of the yeast.

It's tricky to do, so for new cidermakers it's much easier to let it finish and clear, and then rack into a new vessel but if you think you have the patience to do the cold crashing, and then racking off and making sure it's not dropping any lees before stabilizing and then sweetening, then it's definitely doable!

Bottle bombs are more than a messy inconvenience- they are dangerous. So make sure you are confident of the way to go about it, and not just something someone told you on the internet!

 

[richlong8020]

So what's the time period for cold crashing. I have a fridge that I temp control with so it's doable. The temp is doable too.

 

[Yooper]

So what's the time period for cold crashing. I have a fridge that I temp control with so it's doable. The temp is doable too.

Until the cider is completely clear, like you can read a newspaper through it, and no longer dropping ANY sediment at all. Then it can be racked off of the lees into the sorbate/campden and then sweetened to taste.

 

[helibrewer]

If you are patient you can trial it when you think it's ready. Put cider in a plastic soda bottle, treat with sulfite and sorbate, then back sweeten...use the proportional amounts for the small volume. Check the bottle after a couple weeks and if it's not pressurized you should be good to go with the back sweetening treatment.

 

[swedgin]

How would you bulk age? Leave it in secondary fermentation? Is head space an issue when bulk aging?

Thank you for your time.