First Sour.....Over my head?

[BeavStu]

I am considering entering the world of sours, and attempting to brew my first one. I am interested to hear from all of you to see if I am getting in over my head or not. First off a little bit of background...

I have been brewing since February. I have made 5 batches, so far each batch has gotten better and better. Though my two most recent batches one is still bottle conditioning(Barley Wine), the other I'm transferring into the secondary this afternoon (Coffee Porter) so I am yet to see how those have turned out. I have itch to brew again soon but I only have enough bottles to bottle my up and coming Coffee Porter. I just can't get myself to buy empty bottles. Anyways I thought I might try a sour. My wife has been wanting me to brew one (despite the fact that I do not think she understands how long they take), and I've been interested in them as well. I thought I could try a sour because since it will have to age for so long it won't matter if I do not have bottles at the moment. ( I have two fermenting buckets and one carboy, so that is not an issue). I've purchased the book 'American Sour Beers' and plan to read that thoroughly, and have started reading threads here. Only other issue is all my recipes have been extract based. Is it possible to do a sour with extract? Or does it have to be all grain? I've been reading about BIAB procedures for awhile and been considering moving up to that world as a way to 'step my game up' in the world of brewing.

So what do you think? Am I getting in over my head? Or is this a reasonable next step considering my level of experience? Thoughts, suggestions, recommendations for a beginner. All is welcome.

Thanks.

 

[BGBC]

Extract Lambic Recipe

 

[BeavStu]

Haha...coincidence. I just came across this recipe right after I posted the thread. It mentions that the hops were aged 7 years. Is it possible to buy aged hops?

 

[stpug]

A sour beer is no harder than a non-sour beer - you just want to be thoughtful about contamination and santization.

Extract is fine in sour beer brewing - perhaps even helpful to some extent.

A carboy with minimal headspace is ideal for aging - granted you need a vessel WITH headspace for primary fermentation. One possible solution to this is (assuming you don't want a "sour" bucket): brew and ferment a low-IBU clean beer with low attenuating yeast in a bucket, and at day 7 rack to a carboy with minimal headspace where you'll add dregs/bacteria/brett/etc. Then make sure the airlock stays topped up and wait many months before sampling for the first time.

 

[BGBC]

Haha...coincidence. I just came across this recipe right after I posted the thread. It mentions that the hops were aged 7 years. Is it possible to buy aged hops?

You can, and it's more traditional to do so, but it's not required: Lambic Hop Blend

Use a low AA% hop and shoot for ~10 IBU

 

[BeavStu]

A carboy with minimal headspace is ideal for aging - granted you need a vessel WITH headspace for primary fermentation. One possible solution to this is (assuming you don't want a "sour" bucket): brew and ferment a low-IBU clean beer with low attenuating yeast in a bucket, and at day 7 rack to a carboy with minimal headspace where you'll add dregs/bacteria/brett/etc. Then make sure the airlock stays topped up and wait many months before sampling for the first time.

Good advice, thank you. I have a standard 6.5 gallon carboy, so I should be set there. I might need to start collecting dregs. I rarely buy bottles of sour beer, primarily enjoy them at the brewery. That may have to change.

 

[BGBC]

A carboy with minimal headspace is ideal for aging - granted you need a vessel WITH headspace for primary fermentation. One possible solution to this is (assuming you don't want a "sour" bucket): brew and ferment a low-IBU clean beer with low attenuating yeast in a bucket, and at day 7 rack to a carboy with minimal headspace where you'll add dregs/bacteria/brett/etc. Then make sure the airlock stays topped up and wait many months before sampling for the first time.

No right answer here, plenty of different ways to do it. If you read the comments on that TMF recipe, he says he leaves his lambics in the primary fermenter for the duration of the ferment.

For your first sour, I would say pitch all microbes up front (instead of sacch first, then sour bugs).

Where are you located? Dregs are definitely a good option, depending on what you have access to.

 

[sweetcell]

you can make very good long-aged sours with extract. in fact some say that given the massive impact that the bugs will have on the beer, extract vs. all-grain doesn't really matter that much.

i wouldn't use a lambic as my first attempt at all-grain or BIAB... i would brew something that you can taste sooner (and a beer which you can still really taste the malt in!)

yes, you can buy aged hops. freshops, hopsdirect and yakimavalleyhops have them, i'm sure many others do too.

 

[Qhrumphf]

A sour beer is no harder than a non-sour beer - you just want to be thoughtful about contamination and santization.

Extract is fine in sour beer brewing - perhaps even helpful to some extent.

This. Aside from the time it takes, the biggest issue is making sure that the bugs used in your sours beers aren't transferred over to your non-sour beers. Having a separate set of plastic gear is a good start, as it's harder to get clean/sanitary than metal or glass.

You'll find some things with sours are actually easier. Pitching rate, water chemistry, fermentation temperature, are a little bit more forgiving with sours than they are with clean beers.

You just want to make sure you're limiting oxygen access (not aging in a plastic bucket, glass or metal is better, as is a full sized barrel, but a small "homebrew" barrel is worse than a bucket) and making sure the airlock doesn't dry out, which in some cases can happen (I have to top off airlocks maybe a couple times a year).

A carboy with minimal headspace is ideal for aging - granted you need a vessel WITH headspace for primary fermentation. One possible solution to this is (assuming you don't want a "sour" bucket): brew and ferment a low-IBU clean beer with low attenuating yeast in a bucket, and at day 7 rack to a carboy with minimal headspace where you'll add dregs/bacteria/brett/etc. Then make sure the airlock stays topped up and wait many months before sampling for the first time.

This depends on what you're trying to do. The wonderful thing about Brett and bugs (I believe Brett specifically) is that it will deal with autolysing Saccharomyces, so you can leave them in the primary for a very long time without issue. Most of my sours go into a 6-6.5 gallon glass carboy right away, pitch my bugs, and off they go for as much as 3 years, all in primary.

If you're going to be pitching bugs later on, and not right away, then yes, I'd do what he said, ferment clean in a bucket, rack to a smaller glass carboy, pitch bugs, and let it go that way. When you add the bugs in relation to the clean yeast (if you even use a clean yeast) can have a big impact on the character that you get, and the timetable.

 

[m00ps]

Ill sell you my artisanal Kentucky aged hops for a small premium...you can almost taste the racism

 

[stpug]

Good advice, thank you. I have a standard 6.5 gallon carboy, so I should be set there. I might need to start collecting dregs. I rarely buy bottles of sour beer, primarily enjoy them at the brewery. That may have to change.

6.5G carboy may actually be problematic unless you're planning on filling right up to the neck. While it does give you plenty of room for a 5 gallon primary ferment, you're then left with ~2 gallons of headspace after primary is over. Over time, gases will exchange and you'll have some amount of oxygen ingress. How this will affect your beer is unknown but there is the potential for excess acetic acid production.

No right answer here, plenty of different ways to do it. If you read the comments on that TMF recipe, he says he leaves his lambics in the primary fermenter for the duration of the ferment.

For your first sour, I would say pitch all microbes up front (instead of sacch first, then sour bugs).

Where are you located? Dregs are definitely a good option, depending on what you have access to.

Lambics on their lees for the duration seems somewhat common. That's how my two lambic-style beers are currently sitting. Although, I primary in a vessel with headspace and then rack everything over to secondary when the krausen mellows out. It allows me to keep the beer on the lees and have a minimal headspace.

I only suggest the sacc first, bugs second as a way to keep your contamination isolated to the glass carboy but it turns out the carboy is quite large anyway. If you're planning a lambic-style sour beer then pitching them all upfront is preferred.

Lots of ways to brew sour beer - probably more than brewing clean beers

 

[BeavStu]

Where are you located? Dregs are definitely a good option, depending on what you have access to.

I live in Fayetteville, NC. There are a couple good bottle shops in town, but I typically go to Raleigh or make an excuse to drive to Asheville if I want to drink real good beers. Nothing like my real hometown of Portland, OR though.

6.5G carboy may actually be problematic unless you're planning on filling right up to the neck. While it does give you plenty of room for a 5 gallon primary ferment, you're then left with ~2 gallons of headspace after primary is over. Over time, gases will exchange and you'll have some amount of oxygen ingress. How this will affect your beer is unknown but there is the potential for excess acetic acid production.

Good to know. Theoretically though couldn't I just bump by batch up a little bit to make it a 6 gallon batch to reduce headspace that way?

Overall, I love the responses. Thanks. I am encouraged about the prospects of attacking a sour beer. Can't wait till my copy of 'American Sour Beers' shows up in the mail! Thanks again!

 

[stpug]

Good to know. Theoretically though couldn't I just bump by batch up a little bit to make it a 6 gallon batch to reduce headspace that way?

Absolutely, and TBT, lots of folks will keep a sour beer in a carboy with lots of headspace for the aging timeframe and I think most work out. The goal is to simply minimize oxygen contact while the beer ages. However this is accomplished is an effective solution.

 

[LakesideBrewing]

Great thread here on an extract brewed lambic:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=322168

 

[NTexBrewer]

Here is a thread that detailed my first sour. It turned out great with little effort and stress. Still enjoying this beer as I'm stingy and don't like to share this one.

This was a recipe from BYO magazine for a Russian River Temptation clone. I did the extract recipe to keep things simple.

This recipe also adds the Lacto, Peddio and Brett after primary fermentation so you are only contaminating your secondary vessel.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=500143&highlight=russian+river+temptation

 

[BeavStu]

Looks interesting, I may have to consider that recipe. Though hop quantities were not listed, just the AAU values. Were these aged hops?

 

[madscientist451]

Don't worry about the aged hops. A good way to achieve a sour beer is use a regular "clean" yeast for primary and when its done, rack to a carboy and add bottle dregs you have cultured or other yeast/bug mixtures you can buy. Start now by mixing up some wort made from extract and try to make a sour starter from dregs. I had good luck with dregs from Petrus:
http://petrussourbeer.com/en but be patient and don't worry if your starter get a film on the surface. I got real good souring in the starter after 4-6 months, don't know how long the beer will take to sour. Look for a Flanders red recipe for the base beer and look for Jamil's podcast about Flander's red on the brewing network:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/post1707/

 

[stpug]

Looks interesting, I may have to consider that recipe. Though hop quantities were not listed, just the AAU values. Were these aged hops?

Aged hops are a novelty and not necessary. My first couple sours simply used low AA hops to get the low IBUs I wanted. The beers worked out very well.

The only time I've used "aged" hops was in a lambic-style/wild ale, and the resulting wort turned out MUCH more bitter than I had hoped. Aged hops are not all they're cracked up to be.

I've got some nice 1-2% AA strisselspalt and serebrianka that have worked well. Basically any european hop that's in the 1-2% AA range should serve the purpose.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Aged hops are a novelty and not necessary. My first couple sours simply used low AA hops to get the low IBUs I wanted. The beers worked out very well.

The only time I've used "aged" hops was in a lambic-style/wild ale, and the resulting wort turned out MUCH more bitter than I had hoped. Aged hops are not all they're cracked up to be.

I've got some nice 1-2% AA strisselspalt and serebrianka that have worked well. Basically any european hop that's in the 1-2% AA range should serve the purpose.

This. Plus no risk of cheesiness. I use 2.7% AA Hallertauer in my Lamebic, and only boil for maybe 20-30 minutes (the tail end of a 3-4 hour boil). Same for Berliner Weisse and kin. Maybe 5 IBUs. Other sours maybe a little more hopped, maybe 15-20 IBUs.

 

[atmfuge]

If you really want to learn a bunch about brewing sours before doing it I suggest listening to The Brewing Network's SOUR HOUR podcast put on by Jay Goodwin from The Rare Barrel. It is an awesome and super informative show. I have learned a ton just from listening to it over the last year on my way to and from work. There is even an episode that focuses heavily on making sours with extract.

 

[BeavStu]

Awesome, thanks for the heads up. I'll be checking it out.

 

[NTexBrewer]

Looks interesting, I may have to consider that recipe. Though hop quantities were not listed, just the AAU values. Were these aged hops?

AAU = Alpha Acid Units

This unit is used in BYO since the Alpha Acid % of hops varies from crop to crop

AAU = (Alpha Acid of Hops AA%) x (Weight of hops in oz.)

AAU = AA% x oz.

Turn it around to calculate the oz. of hops needed

oz. = AAU / AA%