first sour beer - quick ferment?

[daggers_nz]

Hi friends

I've never dabbled with sour beers, I understand there are a few ways to go about it.. sour mash, lambic ferment (year long) but I was wondering if you could achieve good results with using something like WLP655 (Belgian Sour Mix) with a 2-3 week ferment.

I have a few questions

1) Glass, silicon and stainless steel are safe? Throw away plastic (bottling bucket, bottling wand) after bottling?
2) Full boil or 15 min boil? I don't really know if I'm intentionally souring it through bad hygiene or just using sour yeast

my recipe was probably going to be 80% pilsner, 20% flaked unmalted wheat, ¬15IBU from something noble like Tettnang or Hallertau. OG around 1.048.

any help would be rad thanks. I know there is a lot of info out there on the internet but I thought i'd get more specific answers here.

 

[jgourd]

The Belgian Sour Mix won't sour the beer in 2-3 weeks. You'll get fermentation due to the Saccharomyces in the yeast mix; however, it takes longer for the other bugs to sour the beer. In fact, I would say on the order of at least four to six months just to get some small level of sourness from my experience. A year or more is typical. A sour mash is the way to go to get quick souring, plus you usually boil the sour wort which kills the souring bacteria (thereby making it safe to use with regular beer equipment, beer lines, etc).

1) Yes and no. Don't throw away anything. I've had luck using PBW to clean (leave it overnight or two) and Starsan to sanitize.
2) Depends. A Berliner Weisse style, for example, calls for a 15 min-ish boil. Most sours don't mix well with the bitterness from hops, so a longer boil means adjusting hops accordingly.

 

[TravelingLight]

If you want something sour in that short a timeframe, I'd consider a kettle sour.

 

[Morrey]

What kind of beer would you like? Gose and Berliner Weiss are nice sours that can be done quickly with lacto. I also have a no boil recipe from extract that is awesome. If you'd like a copy of my directions, send me a pm and I'll email it to you.

I typically do 50/50 wheat/2 row with a traditional boil, but this no boil is really neat.

 

[daggers_nz]

thanks for your replies. It seems both kettle and mash souring won't be possible as I'm not able to maintain my mash temp for 2-3 days as required - I mash inside a giant gatorade cooler, void of any heating source.

Back to square one I guess.

What kind of beer would you like? Gose and Berliner Weiss are nice sours that can be done quickly with lacto.

I'm guessing more along the lines of the BW.

 

[daggers_nz]

hmm, after doing some reading, it seems like a Brett yeast might achieve what I am after

edit - or not

 

[rossi46]

Brett does not sour. Brett does not produce significant acid, only funky esters. While acid is produced primarily from bacteria (lactobacillus and pediococcus) for souring.

 

[IslandLizard]

thanks for your replies. It seems both kettle and mash souring won't be possible as I'm not able to maintain my mash temp for 2-3 days as required - I mash inside a giant gatorade cooler, void of any heating source.

Back to square one I guess.

I'm guessing more along the lines of the BW.

If you have a fermentation fridge/chamber, use a small heater (optionally with fan) inside and set your controller to retain your 100-120F temp. Just make sure the heater is safe and won't melt things or set anything on fire.

Try to prevent air reaching the mash/wort. Use a cover laid directly on the mash or wort made from plastic wrap or make a floating lid (e.g., styrofoam cut to size in a plastic bag). Flush the headspace with CO2, etc.

 

[TravelingLight]

thanks for your replies. It seems both kettle and mash souring won't be possible as I'm not able to maintain my mash temp for 2-3 days as required - I mash inside a giant gatorade cooler, void of any heating source.

Back to square one I guess.



I'm guessing more along the lines of the BW.

There are plenty of lacto cultures available that sour at lower temps without the need for an external heat source.

 

[IslandLizard]

There are plenty of lacto cultures available that sour at lower temps without the need for an external heat source.

Sure they will. But I thought speed was of the essence. At 100-112F it only takes 2-3 days. Many pro craft brewers kettle sour over the weekend. Then boil the wort Monday, first thing in the morning.

 

[masonsjax]

I usually mash as usual, then add enough 130 degree water to get my full volume of wort, like a no sparge, let the temp get down to 125 or so, throw a handful of base malt in, cover the surface with plastic wrap, cover the cooler with a blanket and taste it 24 hours later by pulling a sample from the valve. For me, going longer than that has made the beers too sour, 24 hours has been perfect. Drain, boil, chill, ferment as usual. Works great.

I also make a lot of sours using bacteria blends and age. Make a bunch of them, reuse the yeast cakes often, and once they start coming of age, you should have a steady stream of them as long as you keep refilling the fermentors.

 

[TravelingLight]

Sure they will. But I thought speed was of the essence. At 100-112F it only takes 2-3 days. Many pro craft brewers kettle sour over the weekend. Then boil the wort Monday, first thing in the morning.

Fair points. Disclaimer: I have yet to do a kettle sour. But I was just going off of what I've read where I've seen brewers kettle sour at lower temps in 24-48 hours.

 

[daggers_nz]

I usually mash as usual, then add enough 130 degree water to get my full volume of wort, like a no sparge, let the temp get down to 125 or so, throw a handful of base malt in, cover the surface with plastic wrap, cover the cooler with a blanket and taste it 24 hours later by pulling a sample from the valve.

how much temperature would you estimate you lose over that 24hrs? FYI, we are currently in the middle of winter where I live.

Sure they will. But I thought speed was of the essence. At 100-112F it only takes 2-3 days. Many pro craft brewers kettle sour over the weekend. Then boil the wort Monday, first thing in the morning.

I'm only referring to speed as in not fermenting for 6months - 1year as traditional. I'm also worried about losing too much heat over 2-3days, and also I don't have any equipment to "flush" my tun or kettle.

 

[TravelingLight]

how much temperature would you estimate you lose over that 24hrs? FYI, we are currently in the middle of winter where I live.



I'm only referring to speed as in not fermenting for 6months - 1year as traditional. I'm also worried about losing too much heat over 2-3days, and also I don't have any equipment to "flush" my tun or kettle.

What about OYL-605? It sours at 65-100* F.

[http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/837605.htm]

 

[daggers_nz]

What about OYL-605? It sours at 65-100* F.

[http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/837605.htm]

how is that different from any other lacto strain? also, we don't get that brand where I live unfortunately.

 

[masonsjax]

how much temperature would you estimate you lose over that 24hrs? FYI, we are currently in the middle of winter where I live.

Right, southern hemisphere
My basement sits around 68-70F year round, so the weather isn't much of an influence. I did put a space heater next to my cooler and covered both with a blanket the first time I tried the method and that worked until the cooler started getting soft on one side, oops

In 24 hours, it cools down a bit, from about 125F down to around 110F probably? I can't really remember actually, I haven't worried about taking temps for a while. It's certainly warm enough for long enough to get the job done.
That first go, I let it sit for 3 solid days and it had cooled to under 90F. I really liked the level of sour at that point, but forgot that it would be more sour after fermenting out the remaining sugar. It was undrinkable even after blending. The next try I let it go for 2 days and still was too sour, but was good when blended with a clean beer. Every batch since then has sat for 24 hours and comes out great.

Try experimenting for yourself. I'd probably try the opposite of what I did though. Start with 24 hours and worse case you have a non-sour beer to drink. Work your way up through successive batches until you hit your sweet spot.

 

[TravelingLight]

how is that different from any other lacto strain? also, we don't get that brand where I live unfortunately.

What about OYL-605? It sours at 65-100* F.

[http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/837605.htm]

.