First Berliner / Kettle Sour -- Stuck?

[napx]

Hey everyone. Long time reader, first time poster!

I've been homebrewing for a couple years. All grain, BIAB setup, mostly smaller batches. Lots of ales and stouts and recently tried my hand at a saison that came out really superb (imo). Big fan of sours but this is my first attempt at brewing one. I opted to try kettle souring first as it wouldn't require me to buy any new equipment.

So... put together a simple Berliner recipe and decided I'd try a commercial lacto (Wyeast 5335) despite some questionable reviews I'd read. Figured I'd do this first, and then try a yogurt or probiotic-based sour later in another batch for comparisons sake. Made a starter 4 days in advance of the mash, which showed clear signs (and smells!) of lacto bacteria growth in my small incubator. BIAB mashed on Friday and pitched the starter.

I built a crummy fermentation chamber out of a trash can with a thermowrap and a temperature regulator. However, the temperature regulator seems to be pretty inaccurate according to my trusty thermometer, which I only discovered the next day before correcting it and bringing it up to the proper temp. It's been hovering around 90-95F since, which is in the range encouraged by Wyeast.

A day in the pH had dropped from 4.2 (I'd used a teaspoon or so of lactic acid to bring it down to 4.2 after the mash) to 3.8, which seemed encouraging, especially after the mishap with the temp. But now, a day later, it's still sitting at 3.8 and doesn't seem to be dropping.

Is my bacteria dead? Anything I can do to get it moving again? When I taste the wort it isn't nearly as sour as I'd like. But maybe this is as good as it's going to get for a first run. Live and learn?

Any advice very much appreciated! Thanks.

 

[billl]

Everything I've read about the quick sour method suggests 110-120. I'd ramp the temp a bit and watch it closely. You are only targeting around 3.6, so you are pretty close already.

Also, the sweetness of the wort is going to hide some of the sourness (just like it does for bitterness). Once you ferment it with yeast, the sour notes will stand out much more.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Wyeast recommends 90-95F for 5-7 days for that particular strain.

That's way too long for me. Next time I'd use the Swanson's Inner Bowel Support pills, as they are a pure strain of L. Plantarum. Right now you can get 60 of them for $10, and using 1 pill per gallon of wort will get you where you want to be in 24-48 hours.

You don't need a starter with these, nor do you need to maintain temps. They sour just fine at room temp. I just cool the wort down to 100F, pitch in the pills, and let them do their thing.

So they're cheaper, don't require a starter, and easier to use as you don't need to maintain temps.

Also, I'd recommend going to 3.2 - 3.4 for your Berliner. 3.6 is too high for my tastes, but it's an individual preference.

It's also not going to taste as sour as you think it would right now due to you still having so much unfermented sugar in the wort. It'll taste much more sour once the sacc has eaten most of that up.

Lastly, you mentioned this is a kettle sour, so I'm assuming you've not boiled anything yet, and you've not added any hops, correct? Almost all Lacto strains are pretty hop intolerant, so even a little bit will spoil your plans to sour.

 

[napx]

Thanks guys. I guess I'm really not *that* far off, and great point about the current sweetness of the wort. 3.8 just seems way too high for me for a tart berliner. I was targeting 3.3-3.4. I'll probably adjust the temp up just a little bit and sit on it another day and see what happens. If the pH doesn't move any further, I'll boil it and see how it ends up (and move on to the next one ;-).

And correct, have not boiled yet, or added any hops (planning to add 0.5oz hallertau in a 15m boil). I'll take a look at those pills for the next lacto experiment. I was planning on picking up some goodbelly probiotic shots, as I've heard people have had good results with them.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Yeah, the Goodbelly works well also. My only problems with them are 1 - the cost and 2 - you're putting a bunch of stuff in your beer that is not the bacteria you're after.

You should check out the milk the funk wiki and Facebook group. They are both chock full of amazing info on this stuff.

Specifically you'd probably be interested in the wiki pages on wort souring and alternative bacteria sources.

 

[napx]

Yep big fan of the milk the funk wiki -- fantastic source of info. That's where I learned about the goodbelly shots, actually. But fair point about the extras. I'll give the swanson's pills a shot! Lots to learn .

 

[napx]

24 hours later and it hasn't moved a bit. In fact the pH is now reading higher (??) at 3.9. Is it wise to try re-pitching? It's been in the kettle for several days now. Bah.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Did you calibrate your pH meter before taking your reading? It seems really odd to go the other way.

I'm doubting you can pickup the Swanson's pills locally, but you should be able to get the Goodbelly shots if you've got a Whole Foods (or other similar "health food" store) nearby.

 

[napx]

Yep calibrated pH meter. Reads 3.9. Still no movement. Strange. I'm guessing re-pitching isn't the best idea and I should just toss it and start over... hmm.

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Well, it's up to you, but at this point you have no indication that it's infected with anything, and at that pH you should be okay from most harmful things. Did you take a hydrometer reading too?

I'm guessing that you can get Goodbelly or another probiotic pill than Swanson's at your local health food store that would do the trick. Couldn't hurt trying that and see if you can get it down to the 3.2-3.4 range.

You also mentioned having Lactic Acid in your initial post, so worst case why not just go ahead and pitch your Sacc and then sour to your desired preference prior to packaging?

 

[napx]

Couldn't find any swanson's (or anything else that looked like a suitable replacement) but I did find some goodbelly shots locally. Guess we'll see what happens. I'll order some of the probiotic pills for the next batch.

 

[napx]

Wow. That worked... well. Less than 18 hours later and I'm at a pH of 3.3. Boiling!

 

[drgonzo2k2]

Excellent! Now if it turns out decent you're obligated to send me some for review!

 

[napx]

 

[STAD]

Wow. That worked... well. Less than 18 hours later and I'm at a pH of 3.3. Boiling!

What worked? Adding another Good Belly or letting it sit for 18 hours? I've had one going for about 4 days and it's also stuck at about 3.8 pH.

 

[TwistedGray]

What worked? Adding another Good Belly or letting it sit for 18 hours? I've had one going for about 4 days and it's also stuck at about 3.8 pH.

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