Firearms

[Yuri_Rage]

there is no better defense gun then a shotgun. just point and shoot, no more bad guy.

While I agree that a shotgun can be quite effective for self-defense, it still needs to be aimed to a degree. At close quarters (i.e., in your house), the pattern for 00 buckshot is typically only a few inches wide, much smaller than a torso, doorway, or the "broad side of a barn." The longer barrel relative to a handgun will aid in an instinctive shot without precise aiming down the barrel, but to just "point and shoot" is a bold move when firing a round capable of penetrating several walls.

EDIT:
And see pernox's well timed post below. Right on.

 

[pernox]

A 12ga with birdshot has less wall penetration than a handgun. And if you go with a 16 or 18" barrel you can maneuver fine with practice.

Birdshot is for birds. Penetration is inadequate to give an acceptable chance of eliminating a threat. Please do not load your home defense gun with birdshot unless your main concern is a flock of marauding quail. =)

 

[aycockbrews]

i was planning on running bird and buck every other round. i dont want to kill someone else i have to.

 

[pernox]

i was planning on running bird and buck every other round. i dont want to kill someone else i have to.

If they're not dead, they're still a threat. The time it takes you to rack that thing and get a real self defense round off and into the bad guy is plenty of time for him to squeeze his own trigger a couple times, or close the gap and start wrestling with you. What if you really need to drop him on the first shot? You won't with birdshot. The penetration is meager at best - and at worst nonexistent at times for those of us in climates where multiple layers of clothing are worn seasonally.

How about more than one bad guy in the house? Shoot them all twice?

Please don't take me as insulting, I don't mean to be. But shooting someone really only has one desired option, and that's killing the bastard. Playing with fancy loads, alternating bird/buck or buck/slug stuff is Hollywood junk - not the best way to keep you and your family safe.

 

[aycockbrews]

good point!

 

[pernox]

good point!

Ever check out the Box o Truth? http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Lots of interesting content. You could spend hours and many home brews perusing all the content. In addition to the voluminous content, the author writes well and amusingly, so it is a favorite site of mine.

 

[Tex]

I agree that buckshot is superior to birdshot in a self defense situation. I was simply responding to the dude questioning using a 12 gauge in the house, just saying birdshot has less potential to go through a wall and injure/kill a family member than buckshot or a pistol round. Especially in a thin-walled house or apartment. I keep my 12ga loaded with 00 buck as I live alone with no close neighbors and am not concerned about how far it travels. Though I am absolutely confident in my high brass heavy dove loads to get the job done at any range inside my house and the quail can get pretty big here

 

[dracothered]

If they're not dead, they're still a threat. The time it takes you to rack that thing and get a real self defense round off and into the bad guy is plenty of time for him to squeeze his own trigger a couple times, or close the gap and start wrestling with you. What if you really need to drop him on the first shot? You won't with birdshot. The penetration is meager at best - and at worst nonexistent at times for those of us in climates where multiple layers of clothing are worn seasonally.

How about more than one bad guy in the house? Shoot them all twice?

Please don't take me as insulting, I don't mean to be. But shooting someone really only has one desired option, and that's killing the bastard. Playing with fancy loads, alternating bird/buck or buck/slug stuff is Hollywood junk - not the best way to keep you and your family safe.

I would like to add one more thing to what you said above. When forced to shoot someone that breaks in you are better off going for a good clean kill if you can at all help it. By having less than lethal loads in your shotgun could land you in more hot water than having slugs or OO buck shot. Here is why, lets say the Bad Guy survives being shot and gets arrested. Now he has a chance to take you to civil court over the shooting and his or her lawyer will try to cook up some BS that your use of lets say bird shot was inhuman because you had to shoot their client multiple time just to stop them and caused them untold trauma because of it.

 

[aycockbrews]

after seeing zombie land im thinking of having 1 of my .30-30s turned into a trapper. in nevada it cant be less than 16 in for a riffle. i have a winchester 1894 and a marlin.

 

[Goose5]

I'm an HK guy. You either love or hate the P7.

 

[bottlebomber]

I don't know what all this hate is toward bird shot... Yes it is potentially less lethal, but it is also not going to shoot through your walls and kill your children. As far as whether it is lethal, I will pretty much guarantee you it is, especially in close quarters.

Furthermore, i would bet 99.9% of household perps are strung out kids trying to steal a tv or something to get a drug fix. Human instinct is going to prevent someone who was just shot with a very loud gun from advancing on their shooter.

This scenario of someone coming into your house at night with a loaded gun is very unlikely to begin with. In the unfortunate event that it does happen, it would most likely be a home invasion in which someone is entering your home unexpectantly and by force, and putting a gun in your face. In that case you would do best to leave your S&W 500 in the nightstand so you and your family can stay healthy.

 

[pernox]

I don't know what all this hate is toward bird shot... Yes it is potentially less lethal, but it is also not going to shoot through your walls and kill your children. As far as whether it is lethal, I will pretty much guarantee you it is, especially in close quarters.

Your guarantee and fact are not in agreement. Lots of testing on actual meat (including humans) indicates that human size bones that can be found in the chest cavity of every healthy adult are enough to stop, spread, and reduce the speed of birdshot enough to make it not only less than lethal, but almost always survivable.

Furthermore, i would bet 99.9% of household perps are strung out kids trying to steal a tv or something to get a drug fix. Human instinct is going to prevent someone who was just shot with a very loud gun from advancing on their shooter.

Quite the contrary. Many home invasions involve multiple assailants, often well armed. Also, "strung out perps" that are on many of the more commonly found drugs (including heavy doses of adrenaline) will not even feel the birdshot. The aim of a home defense shooting is to kill the bad guy. If you're not shooting to kill, you should not be shooting.

This scenario of someone coming into your house at night with a loaded gun is very unlikely to begin with. In the unfortunate event that it does happen, it would most likely be a home invasion in which someone is entering your home unexpectantly and by force, and putting a gun in your face. In that case you would do best to leave your S&W 500 in the nightstand so you and your family can stay healthy.

Really?

http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/suspects-deadly-home-invasion-face-murder-charges/nHG87/

http://summerville.patch.com/articles/arrest-made-in-home-invasion-murder

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/13/joshua-komisarjevsky-new-trial_n_1204214.html

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/12/baldwin_county_deputies_have_t.html

Those were just the first few Google results. If your strategy for a home invasion is leaving the gun in the drawer, I hope you have a plot picked out already.

 

[pernox]

I would like to add one more thing to what you said above. When forced to shoot someone that breaks in you are better off going for a good clean kill if you can at all help it. By having less than lethal loads in your shotgun could land you in more hot water than having slugs or OO buck shot. Here is why, lets say the Bad Guy survives being shot and gets arrested. Now he has a chance to take you to civil court over the shooting and his or her lawyer will try to cook up some BS that your use of lets say bird shot was inhuman because you had to shoot their client multiple time just to stop them and caused them untold trauma because of it.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

In states without an ironclad Castle Doctrine law, a living bad guy is going to make your life hell for a lot longer than a dead one. It bears repeating - if you need to shoot somebody, they damn well better need killing.

 

[bottlebomber]

I did some more research, and found that even under the best circumstances bird shot can only leave you "mostly dead".

 

[bottlebomber]

Your guarantee and fact are not in agreement. Lots of testing on actual meat (including humans) indicates that human size bones that can be found in the chest cavity of every healthy adult are enough to stop, spread, and reduce the speed of birdshot enough to make it not only less than lethal, but almost always survivable.

How about the face cavity? What do the statistics say about having your eyes, nose, and lips ripped off?

"strung out perps" that are on many of the more commonly found drugs (including heavy doses of adrenaline) will not even feel the birdshot.

I can tell you from experience that being really really high and in a dangerous situation does not make you exempt from pain.

Quite the contrary. Many home invasions involve multiple assailants, often well armed.

If your strategy for a home invasion is leaving the gun in the drawer, I hope you have a plot picked out already.

Trying to prepare for these kinds of situations is like trying to prepare for that moment when a semi truck drifts into your lane on a two lane bridge. It probably won't happen, if it does you can do your best with what you have to work with, but if it does happen you are likely screwed. I think television along with general paranoia makes people believe that they will have more control in these situations than they would. If you have loaded guns around the house and children as well, it is many times more likely that one of your children will find and discharge one than that you would successfully thwart a home invasion.

 

[Huskysibe]

You have the right to defend your home and family, shoot to kill and theres only 1 side to the story. If you leave a weapon in the nightstand or gun safe you may as well not own one. That weapon is your tool for survival and the element of surprise is the only thing you have got going for you in a home invasion scenario.

 

[3PegBrew]

You have the right to defend your home and family, shoot to kill and theres only 1 side to the story. If you leave a weapon in the nightstand or gun safe you may as well not own one. That weapon is your tool for survival and the element of surprise is the only thing you have got going for you in a home invasion scenario.

!!!!! Awesome point

 

[HIM_Tattoos]

I would like to add one more thing to what you said above. When forced to shoot someone that breaks in you are better off going for a good clean kill if you can at all help it. By having less than lethal loads in your shotgun could land you in more hot water than having slugs or OO buck shot. Here is why, lets say the Bad Guy survives being shot and gets arrested. Now he has a chance to take you to civil court over the shooting and his or her lawyer will try to cook up some BS that your use of lets say bird shot was inhuman because you had to shoot their client multiple time just to stop them and caused them untold trauma because of it.

You have the right to defend your home and family, shoot to kill and theres only 1 side to the story. If you leave a weapon in the nightstand or gun safe you may as well not own one. That weapon is your tool for survival and the element of surprise is the only thing you have got going for you in a home invasion scenario.

Boht of these go perfect with my motto if anyone was to ever come into my home unwelcomed: "Dead men tell no tales"

 

[landshark]

You have the right to defend your home and family, shoot to kill and theres only 1 side to the story. If you leave a weapon in the nightstand or gun safe you may as well not own one. That weapon is your tool for survival and the element of surprise is the only thing you have got going for you in a home invasion scenario.

So if it's in my nightstand it is useless? That makes no sense.

Sure it's in a drawer, but it's more useful than fumbling with a locked gun safe. I'm not going to sleep with a loaded gun strapped to me. And it's not in immediate view if someone who is visiting seeing it, or kids for that matter.

Or anyone who owns a gun safe may as well not even own any guns? What's wrong with protecting your investments?

 

[Huskysibe]

Its useless if you leave it there during a home invasion. a previous poster said to leave your weapon in the nightstand and you increase your chance for survival. thats simply not true, you increase your chance for survival if you are armed.

 

[Homercidal]

Isn't this a thread about showing guns?

There is a forum you can go to if you want to argue about their use!

 

[3PegBrew]

Anyone on here a real life twin of Burt from Tremors?

 

[bh10]

Anyone on here a real life twin of Burt from Tremors?

No but I'd give it to Reba.

 

[Huskysibe]

Isn't this a thread about showing guns?

There is a forum you can go to if you want to argue about their use!

And yet you make a useless post without showing a gun or arguing about their use.

 

[pernox]

How about the face cavity? What do the statistics say about having your eyes, nose, and lips ripped off?

Couldn't say - I haven't seen any reports where birdshot ripped off anything. Not saying that to be snarky, but I haven't. One could assume that the lethality would be equally low barring a pellet penetrating the eye(s) and lodging itself in a vital part of the brain, being that the skull is thick and facial bones don't protect anything vital. If you want to take your chances making a headshot while under the duress of protecting your homestead and family, then that's what you should do. The facts conclusively demonstrate that birdshot is less lethal than 00 buck, or even #4 buck which many folks use as a compromise between penetration of walls/cavities and penetration of bad guy.

I can tell you from experience that being really really high and in a dangerous situation does not make you exempt from pain.

Nor does being in pain exempt you from continuing toward your goal. Many people, in fact, use it as motivation. Inflicting pain should not be the goal of shooting an intruder. Causing their death should be.

Trying to prepare for these kinds of situations is like trying to prepare for that moment when a semi truck drifts into your lane on a two lane bridge. It probably won't happen, if it does you can do your best with what you have to work with, but if it does happen you are likely screwed. I think television along with general paranoia makes people believe that they will have more control in these situations than they would. If you have loaded guns around the house and children as well, it is many times more likely that one of your children will find and discharge one than that you would successfully thwart a home invasion.

I disagree. Many, many people are prepared for these situations. Myself, my family, and just about everyone I associate with on a friendly basis included. It's worth it to me to take the proper steps to mitigate the risk of a planned invasion, a robbery, or a drunk bum wandering up onto the porch by mistake. All these things require different responses, and I'm ready to perform them. That doesn't make me an internet ninja, it just means that I've taken what I see as reasonable precautions to keep my family safe. It doesn't intrude on my daily life, and it increases the chance of my family's survival in a worst case scenario. Why wouldn't you go to great lengths to protect your family? We carry guns outside of our home just in case something happens, right? Why wouldn't you want to protect your home in the best way that you have the means for?

 

[pernox]

Isn't this a thread about showing guns?

There is a forum you can go to if you want to argue about their use!

I am pretty new here, but I think this falls under conversation and debate rather than a knock-down-drag-out argument. The thread title is, in fact, "Firearms." It's also in "General Chit Chat" rather than, say, the "Ingredients/Recipes" forum - so I don't think it's too far off topic, personally.

 

[CoalCracker]

Just picked up a Ruger SR9c. Black w/ stainless slide! Taking it to the range to break her in this weekend. Leather IWB holster ordered and should be here tomorrow.

 

[Huskysibe]

Which holster did you get?

 

[CoalCracker]

Gould & Goodrich 890-G27 It's made for a Glock 27 but will fit the SR9C perfectly. Amazon had it for 25 bucks. I have a bulldog holster for my walther p22 and my Ruger fits perfect for when I go for a hike. I'd rather open carry while hiking then conceal.

 

[SoulBrew]

Cleaning my Kimber...

 

[bottlebomber]

Couldn't say - I haven't seen any reports where birdshot ripped off anything. Not saying that to be snarky, but I haven't. One could assume that the lethality would be equally low barring a pellet penetrating the eye(s) and lodging itself in a vital part of the brain, being that the skull is thick and facial bones don't protect anything vital.

I dunno... At least admit that it would be unpleasant

 

[Airborneguy]

You have a semi-auto and have x-rounds +1 are you carrying the +1 in the chamber? Same with revolver x in the wheel - hammer on round?

All of my handguns are fully loaded at all times with a round in the chamber or under the hammer. None of my handguns have safeties either.

 

[starrfish]

From my home town. http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=361731

This has influenced me more than you can imagine. my dad has a ccw permit in PA and is only a few years older than the guy in the article.

I'll be taking the class here in sc soon. Just goes to show seconds count, dad was on that same trail the day before. He's now carrying 1 in the pipe.

 

[Kaotica]

Cleaning my Kimber...

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45127"/>

Nice. I'm trying to weasel my way into this:
http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/ultra-carry-ii/stainless-ultra-tle-ii

SWMBO hasn't been convinced. Still getting comfortable with my Colt XSE Govt. I would def carry the Kimber Ultra Carry II if I could figure out how to get one. But I'd rather have a happy wife than another gun, so gotta do the right thing.... And sell my Beretta.

 

[Duckfoot]

I would def carry the Kimber Ultra Carry II if I could figure out how to get one. B

I have the Compact Stainless II and I love that weapon...

 

[dataz722]

I dunno... At least admit that it would be unpleasant
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Unpleasant? Yeah. But not going to stop a someone hopped up on meth coming at you. So it blows a hole in drywall? I have done that numerous times with my fist but don't I kind of doubt I could penetrate someone's skull or rib cage with my fist.

You want to be able to drop someone, not just make it unpleasant.

 

[bottlebomber]

Looks like it will be up to the range this weekend with my coach gun and some Heavy Metal bird shot and a rotisserie chicken so I can settle this for myself

 

[dataz722]

Looks like it will be up to the range this weekend with my coach gun and some Heavy Metal bird shot and a rotisserie chicken so I can settle this for myself

Video please.

And have you ever tried snapping a chicken bone before? Pretty easy huh? What about a human's rib cage or skull?

 

[Kaotica]

My Colt got a little update today, Wilson Combat grips and beaver tail grip safety.

Not the best pics, but before:

After:

 

[Huskysibe]

Wow, I like the look of that. Good job on the upgrades!