Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

[Almighty]

So fun to see this thread still alive. 0 IBUs is just fine, many sour beers are done this way. Hops are really only needed for 2 reasons: antibacterial needed for spontaneous ferments or flavor. So for the first reason, you are pitching plenty of good yeast and bacteria. For the second, it all depends on what taste you want. In traditional lambic, the aged hops actually do play a role in flavor. You'll likely end up with a great beer, just don't expect it to taste too close to a lambic.

What sort of stability are you referring to?

 

[badlee]

Your acidity will take over the preservative role of hops,so stability,if I understood your question,need not be a concern

 

[darling]

What sort of stability are you referring to?

Your acidity will take over the preservative role of hops,so stability,if I understood your question,need not be a concern

Thanks for the replies Almighty and badlee. In terms of stability, I was referring to the preservative property of hops. If acidity takes over this role, then you've calmed my fears.

As for flavor, I expect to get the sour fruitiness as the baseline and play with other aromas as the solera develops. I may dry hop future beers made with this before bottling, but I'm not necessarily going for an genuine lambic with aged hop character.

This project was mostly inspired by DanABA's youtube playlist. One question about what he did (and apparently was advised to do here): he pitched Sacc into one of his 1 gal starters. Is this necessary if there are no early signs of activity from the dregs? Two of my bottles were vintage Gueuze from 2011. I don't think that necessarily means they were bottled in 2011, but maybe the oldest part of the blend is from 2011. The expiration date was for 2035 (20 years from bottle date?).

 

[badlee]

You are most welcome!
Were they big or small bottles?
If big,then I would not bother with sacc. You should have enough Brett and bugs to work through.
Even if they were small bottles,if you did pitch sacc,you would be minimizing the impact of the dregs from those great beers.
Let this one ride,see where it takes you and THEN plan for the next batch.
I learned from one of the best,an under appreciated wealth of knowledge; Almighty

 

[darling]

They were 37.5 ml bottles with about 2in left in each. I tried to get as much sediment into suspension as possible. I'm going to let it roll. I learned that it clean beer brewing!

And about learning from Almighty: that's why I'm here!

Thanks again guys. So glad to see this thread alive!

 

[Almighty]

Thanks for the nice words.

I did morph my technique a bit over time. I moved to doing at least a wake-up starter (2 step is better if old or a single small bottle) in the bottle if I'm relying on the dregs for primary fermentation. The easiest way is to save some late low gravity runnings and throw it in the freezer. After drinking your beer, leave the last 1 inch and add 2-4 oz of some boil/cooled wort straight to the bottle. Cover with foil if you plan to use within 3-5 days, if not add a stopper and airlock. You likely won't see much activity in this starter, the cell count is just too low. Either top up with a bit more wort a few days later or pitch into your batch.

Keep the thread alive and report back with results.

 

[darling]

I considered doing the in-bottle starter but laziness and deciding to open a beer are generally on the same team

The 1 gal starter did begin to show signs of activity after 2 days. There is a creamy looking, almost lacy foam developing on the surface. I gather this is lacto activity? Either way I am happy to see something happening so now I can let it go for 6 months or so without being tempted to open it up and mess with it.

Just drank a 750ml bottle of Cuvee Rene (with friends), so I may consider adding a cup of starter wort to the bottle dregs. I'll definitely post when I decide.

 

[darling]

So, I did decide to try the starter for my Cuvée René dregs. I boiled up some light DME in around 300ml (~1 cup) of water to a SG of 1.035 and poured that into the bottle. I'll see what happens there and keep building it up if the results are good.

On my 1 gal starter, I've definitely gotten some lactic activity: foamy, krasuen-like lace on the top with light activity and minimal bubbling in the airlock. From Mike Tonsmeire's blog, I'm hoping there's enough Brett in the three Gueuzes I pitched to get a pellicle going, but I'll be patient with it.

BTW, the beer in the middle is a fresh Grapefruit Sage Saison with a heavy-handed dry hop of Equinox. Very green at the moment, but will definitely get better with age.

 

[bionut]

I made a small starter with the dregs from a small Oude Kriek Boon bottle that was bottled in 2012. Do you think that there were some living creatures in there after that time in the bottle? I shaked the flask so the foam isn't a result of fermentation.
Last evening i made another one with the dregs form Oude Beersel Gueuze Vieille. This was bottled in 2015, so it's a lot fresher.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Subd

 

[Almighty]

Yes, there is still likely microbes. However the cell count is very low, so don't expect to see a krausen like you do with normal pitching rates. Gradually keep building up the starter and the rule of thumb is no step bigger than 10x. Good luck.

 

[bionut]

But will i see any sign of fermentation at all? Or when should i step up the starter if no sign of fermentation appear?
The start with the Oude Boon Kriek show no sign also, and the bottle is from 2015, so not very old. I am not very worried about this, but this a new thing for me so i am very curious to see something happening.
This evening i drunk a bottle of Lindemans Renee Kuve with my brother (who doesn't really like beer, either commercial or homebrewed but seems to love lambics) and made a starter with the dregs.
I want to start a pipeline of sour beer. I just recently had the pleasure to drink my first lambic and i am hooked Maybe that's why i made a small starter with some canola honey from my own bee hives to see what microbes it has in it.

 

[Almighty]

Maybe? Likely not much. I'd wait 3-5 days and do another step. After this step you should start seeing some activity.

 

[bionut]

Do i need an airlock on my starter? I don't have one little enough for a 500ml erlenmeyer. I put some aluminium foil over the opening of the flask. I am afraid of getting acetobacer activity.

 

[Almighty]

It's all time dependent. If you are consistent at making starters every 3-5 days you will be fine. The issues arise when it sits there with foil and no active fermentation.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

So you have inspired me to get into brewing sours. I've been meaning to do it and it's definitely better to start earlier than later.

I think I'm just going to boil up some extract and go to town. I've got some wicked weed and a few others.

I think I may start a solera project with gallons that are good but not great? I've always wanted to do something like that

 

[Almighty]

Great to hear. Post your results so we can continue to learn what everyone gets from their process.

 

[505-Brewer]

So you have inspired me to get into brewing sours. I've been meaning to do it and it's definitely better to start earlier than later.

I think I'm just going to boil up some extract and go to town. I've got some wicked weed and a few others.

I think I may start a solera project with gallons that are good but not great? I've always wanted to do something like that

With gallons that are good but not great? Souring an ok beer will likely lead to an ok sour beer. Id treat your sours with all the respect and love as any other. Perhaps I misunderstand. Can you clarify?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

With gallons that are good but not great? Souring an ok beer will likely lead to an ok sour beer. Id treat your sours with all the respect and love as any other. Perhaps I misunderstand. Can you clarify?

What I mean is if a sour turns out phenomenal, I'm going to bottle it straight. If the sour turns out good but not fantastic it'll go into the solera to evolve

 

[ThatVideoKid]

So I plan on starting tomorrow. I'm going to boil up 3 gallons of wheat dme with styrian goldings with maybe some maltodextrine, and split it into gallons and pitch wicked weed, monks cafe, and just for fun an Allagash little Brett.

Sounds fun to keep making the same wort and have all the differences being the bugs

 

[ThatVideoKid]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1467570998.089146.jpg

Just got around to this. Both gallons 100% Pils DME to 1.056. Pitched the dregs from 2 bottle of Monks Cafe Flemish Red into one gallon, hopefully this actually has bugs, I heard it did.

Drinking a WW Cherry go Lightly later to pitch into the other gallon,

 

[burninator]

Monk's Cafe should have viable dregs. I really need to try this. Would be a great way to queue up some blending beers, and to build up a bank of cultures.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Monk's Cafe should have viable dregs. I really need to try this. Would be a great way to queue up some blending beers, and to build up a bank of cultures.

Yeah I hope so. It seemed to be in question on the madfermentationists list. There was some sort of sediment though, so it's either bugs or just a bottling wine yeast. We'll see.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

So nothing is really going on...I wasn't expecting much but I figured at least the airlock not being bottomed out. I brought both of them down and put them on top of the dehumidifier to warm it up. To the monks beer I added dregs from Allagash Little Brett to at least get some fermentation of any kind going on.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Monks/Little Brett batch has taken off. I assume this is a primarily Brett fermentation

 

[burninator]

Monk's Cafe would be a mixed culture. Not sure if you'll have any sacc in there. Bacteria may be a little slower to start.

 

[bionut]

My starter with Boon Oud Kriek dregs didn't show any sacc activity so i inoculated a loop of yeas from a starter with Afligem blonde dregs. Now it's going very nice.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Monk's Cafe would be a mixed culture. Not sure if you'll have any sacc in there. Bacteria may be a little slower to start.

Well I'll come out with beer of some sort on the other side...still nothing going on with wicked weed

 

[burninator]

Well I'll come out with beer of some sort on the other side...still nothing going on with wicked weed

Now don't go stealing my brewery's motto: "It'll be beer."

 

[TravelingLight]

Boy am I glad I found this. Question about a saison that I'm about to brew (and pull a gallon off to funk up).

What's the IBU threshold? My saison recipe as of now clocks in around 13-15 IBUs. If this is too high I can certainly adjust.

Also, I'm fermenting the saison with 3711. Should I let this ferment out a few days before pulling a gallon off to funk up? I've read most of this entire thread and it looks like people are having more success or rather quicker success by letting it ferment out at least a few days with sacc before pitching dregs.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Boy am I glad I found this. Question about a saison that I'm about to brew (and pull a gallon off to funk up).

What's the IBU threshold? My saison recipe as of now clocks in around 13-15 IBUs. If this is too high I can certainly adjust.

Also, I'm fermenting the saison with 3711. Should I let this ferment out a few days before pulling a gallon off to funk up? I've read most of this entire thread and it looks like people are having more success or rather quicker success by letting it ferment out at least a few days with sacc before pitching dregs.

It's really depends...some lactos won't work at 10 IBUs, but then there's some people that have reportedly had success with 30+ (I'm thinking of Cascade I think). I would recommend running off a gallon halfway through your saison boil so the IBUs are lower for that gallon.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Oh I would also like to update on my gallons after camping for 4 days...

Monks/Allagash Brett:

Came home to a beer filled chunky airlock. Really didn't expect vigorous fermentation with just some bottle dregs. Still bubbling away after an airlock change.

WW:

Left it on top of the dehumidifier for the weekend, probably sitting in the high 80s. Came back to a bubbly pellicle starting to form. Took it off and put it with the Allagash. Hopefully didn't develop anything bad with those high temps.

 

[TravelingLight]

It's really depends...some lactos won't work at 10 IBUs, but then there's some people that have reportedly had success with 30+ (I'm thinking of Cascade I think). I would recommend running off a gallon halfway through your saison boil so the IBUs are lower for that gallon.

Good call. I'm not even doing a 60 min bittering charge, only doing a 10 min and FO/WP addition. So I could just pull off a gallon before adding any hops at the 10 minute mark. Excellent.

Also, is the cherry go lightly the only WW bottle you've tried? I've got quite a few WW bottles in my cellar and was curious which ones should have viable dreggs. I'd love to pull dregs from Black Angel (consistently in my top five favorite sours) and a few others they have. I'll be back up there in a few weeks and maybe I can find someone at Funkatorium who would know what's viable and what's not.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Good call. I'm not even doing a 60 min bittering charge, only doing a 10 min and FO/WP addition. So I could just pull off a gallon before adding any hops at the 10 minute mark. Excellent.



Also, is the cherry go lightly the only WW bottle you've tried? I've got quite a few WW bottles in my cellar and was curious which ones should have viable dreggs. I'd love to pull dregs from Black Angel (consistently in my top five favorite sours) and a few others they have. I'll be back up there in a few weeks and maybe I can find someone at Funkatorium who would know what's viable and what's not.

Yeah that's the only one I've tried so far. I have black and white Angels which I will try when I decide to drink those

I would love to know what's viable and what's not, because it's not unlikely that I just have random crap growing in my WW jug

 

[ArthurDigbySellers]

Good call. I'm not even doing a 60 min bittering charge, only doing a 10 min and FO/WP addition. So I could just pull off a gallon before adding any hops at the 10 minute mark. Excellent.

Also, is the cherry go lightly the only WW bottle you've tried? I've got quite a few WW bottles in my cellar and was curious which ones should have viable dreggs. I'd love to pull dregs from Black Angel (consistently in my top five favorite sours) and a few others they have. I'll be back up there in a few weeks and maybe I can find someone at Funkatorium who would know what's viable and what's not.

Looks like Black Angel is viable. Here is the list from The Mad Fermentationist's website:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

 

[TravelingLight]

Looks like Black Angel is viable. Here is the list from The Mad Fermentationist's website:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

Thank you! THAT was the list I was looking for. Don't know how I overlooked it.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Thank you! THAT was the list I was looking for. Don't know how I overlooked it.

Yeah I feel like it must be more than those though, right? Why would black angel and not the other angels. Maybe I'll shoot them an email

 

[TravelingLight]

Yeah I feel like it must be more than those though, right? Why would black angel and not the other angels. Maybe I'll shoot them an email

Excellent question. And I'm certain they have numerous other viable bottles. Perhaps those are the only ones Tonsmiere has personally used and gotten viable dregs from?

 

[TravelingLight]

I saved three tubes of dregs from a share this weekend. I'd like to pitch some into one gallon of my saison I have in primary right now. Here is what I have:

Tube 1: Russian River Concecration + RR Supplication
Tube 2: Jester King Provenance + JK RU55
Tube 3: Rare Barrel No Salt

First question is should any of these not be used? Or would one be better than the others? Also, should I step these up in a starter or just go straight into the beer? Currently they're sealed in the tubes in the fridge.

 

[badlee]

Stepping them up will not hurt,for sure. Plus, that way you get to keep some as is.
I would go for the JK as it has a reputation for having beasty dregs!

RB bottle with wine yeast.