Easy Way to Make Sour Beers (1 gal wort + dregs)

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My coopers and Orval Belgian-ish is 11 days in and I couldn't resist. I just had to open her up and have a smell:eek:
Well, intense pineapple and peach,I wanted to fall intot he demi-john(I know,not possible) and die in there!
11 days at between 15 and 28c.
 
dangloverenator said:
I'm hoping to make a sour porter next week. Here's my plan, will this work? I'm going to brew a 10l (2.5gal) batch, and once it's cooled, transfer 8-9l into the main vessel, and then pitch a basic dry yeast. With the other 1-2 litres, I'm going to transfer it to a separate container and pitch the dregs of a cantillon bottle. I will then blend the two together in secondary, to add (hopefully) a subtle tartness. One question - how long will it take for the cantillon dregs to sour the wort in the other vessel? Presumably longer than the dry yeast? Thoughts, please!
Click to expand...

I only have 2-3 sour beers under my belt so take this for what it's worth. But if you just want a mild tartness just ferment the whole batch with your neutral dry yeast then pitch the Cantillon dregs in secondary after the primary sach strain reaches terminal gravity. There should be a good amount for the bugs to eat but probably won't be overpowering.

Your plan would work, it's basically like making a starter but I don't see it being worth it. You don't really need to make a starter when you're pitching bugs in secondary, they are going to take their good old time anyway.
 
I have some 1 gallon experiments that I could update.

Jolly Pumpkin Biere de Mars dregs in an American Blonde-
It's a couple months since I put the dregs in and it's smelling funky, and looks like the Jolly Pumpkin bugs have taken hold. Excited for this one to use the yeast for a 5 gallon batch!

St. Somewhere Lectio Divina dregs in an American Blonde-
No activity or aroma change for 2 months. I'm gonna say this didn't take hold and use some Russian River dregs into this beer soon.

Boulevard Saison Brett dregs in second runnings of a Saison wort. Added half pound of Belgian Candy Syrup. Smell is great after 2 months. I thought that this was a bust because I didn't see any airlock activity, but I smelled the jug last night and it's definitely getting funky!

Avery 15/ Brett Drie yeast slurry 100% brett into a Biere de Garde wort. Fermentation was cooking after 12 hours. Should be fantastic!
 
spenghali -
I would make a small starter in the RR Supplication bottle before adding it to the main batch. Plus I wouldn't try to transfer, I would add the dregs and WLP072 at the same time. I try to avoid transferring as much as possible and trub isn't that bad for sour beers as long as it is not too much.

Hydrometer in the wort may work, only thing is it will be pretty hard to see your reading if you have a decent pellicle on your beer.

bubbachunk-
Headspace is not desired in sour beers for long aging, but for 2 weeks as you described that will not influence much.

dangloverenator-
Cantillion dregs are pretty variable, depending on the beer because they are aged for so long before blending and bottling. Your method should work, but will require extended aging to sour. These beers are aged for usually greater than a year. So if you want a quicker sour beer then I would suggest you look into sour mashing or acid malt.

nppeders - thanks for the update and can't wait to hear what you think of the Drie Brett.
 
I had made a starter in the bottle for about 4 days prior, it took pretty well. Unfortunately I had already gone along with my plan to rack off of my main 5 batch. It was at 1.030 when I took 1 gallon from it. Pitched the RR supplication dregs starter. Then today ~ 1 week later pitched some other dregs that had no starter (Epic Sour Apple Saison and some brett biere de garde I can't remember, maybe logsdon, I'll have to look).
 
The RR beers take off pretty quickly because most are bottled with wine yeast that stay pretty viable. It sounds like your process will work pretty well. Post an update when you get some results.
 
Just to update mine, I have a pretty nice pellicle developing over the past week or so, it's only been about 3 weeks (I think I brewed the Biere de Garde on 2/15/12 and transfered a gallon to a jug on 2/17/12, and pitched RR supplication dregs starter, some Epic Sour Apple Saison dregs and some Le Sans Culottes Biere de Garde dregs). Pretty quick take off, probably from the RR starter.
 
cracked my first bottle last night.
6 weeks primary and 4 days in the bottle. Pretty good carbonation, slight haze,but clear.
There are SO many different tastes going on it's just mad! It's fruity(pineapple,peach,passion fruit) , smokey,woody, tart, medicinal and something in the aftertaste which clings to the palate ever so fleetingly. Even with all of this going on it's SUCH a balanced flavour and it TOTALLY works! This will be done again in a few weeks with La Chouffe.
 
badlee - I'm glad it worked for you. And it will be neat to hear if you had equally good results with the La Chouffe dregs as I did.
 
Great post here everyone. Something I recently started doing (maybe this works for you, maybe not) was after sparging and collecting my total volume in my boil kettle, I sparge the extra volume into a small 5 gallon kettle. You can steep some grain during the small sparge to add a little color/character if you want, but not necessary. I generally just add some DME, start with about 3.5 gallons, and boil this on a camp chef burner next to my Tippy Dump sculpture, adding 8-15 IBUs at 60 minutes (depending on the gravity). Take this into a 3 gallon carboy (or a couple of 1 gallon jars), pitch some dregs or a vial of brett, and leave it in the closet for 3-4 months. Adding an ounce of oak cubes helps also, as they give the brett a "home". Whats cool about this is when you are ready to rack this beer out, you can rack fresh beer right back in and have a great colony going already. Just something to consider on your next brew day!

Cheers.
 
Jipper -
Do you notice any astringency from over sparging? What gravity are your last runnings from the mash tun?

And I do agree that most Brett or sour beers do benefit from some oak. I actually like almost all beers better with oak, but with the aging time already needed for flavor development from the bugs you have plenty of time to get a nice oak extraction and for the oak flavors to mature.
 
Great thread!

Now I just need to find out what style to brew that I can snake a couple gallons off of. I mostly do pretty high IBU pales or big stouts. Don't want to make any Belgians :3
 
One of the points early in the thread was about how to get around the high IBUs. My idea is that you plan to make an extra gallon of wort. You mash and sparge normally then you make sure that you have an extra gallon more for you pre boil volume. After you add your bittering hops you can calculate how long the wort has to boil for you to extract 10 - 15 IBUs and then you rack off a gallon of the boiling wort into a pre-heated 1 gal glass container. Does this make sense?

And for the stouts I have really been liking the roast flavor mixed with some Brett funk. And high alcohol is not a big problem for most Brett or souring bacteria. And you can even do as Jipper recommended and use your 2nd runnings from your big mash to make a smaller beer that you experiment with dregs.
 
Question on use of dregs..... If I add dregs to my secondary should I see anything happen? I did 2 1G batches. One with cherries and JP Oro de Cabeza Noel dregs and then one with just JP Bam Noire dregs. It doesn't seem like anything is happening with the Bam Noire dregs so I am wondering if I need to add more dregs or if it is just too soon still.
 
I had a gallon of my October Ale on Bam Noire and saw small bubbles but my Red Ale on La Roja I've seen nothing except a small bit of pellicle which also disappeared quickly.
 
You may or may not see a lot of activity, it completely depends on the amount of sugar and the type of dregs you added.

How did you add your cherries (frozen, dethawed, mashed or whole)? And how much?
On this beer you may see some light activity on the surface, but will probably be hard to see with the cherries. And the activity will just be from the Sacc yeast left in the dregs, if any is still alive depending on the age of the beer.

And your other one with just Bam Noire dregs, I doubt you will see any activity.

Now if you have some oxygen in the headspace then you will probably see a pellicle pretty soon. These types of beer you just need to be patient. Take a sample in a few months and you'll find out if you have anything. (You could try sooner since the JP dregs are known to be very aggressive)
 
Cherries were whole. I just opened a can of Oregon Tart Cherries and dumped them in. It looks like something is going on there under the cherries.

Plain Bam Noire batch looks like nothing is going on which sounds like that isn't unusual. I just wanted to ask to make sure I hadn't failed at infecting with Brett.
 
I just had two bottle of Saison Dupont brought over from HongKong. So, tese are the next dregs I will use. Can't wait!
 
badlee said:
I just had two bottle of Saison Dupont brought over from HongKong. So, tese are the next dregs I will use. Can't wait!
Click to expand...

I guess I will be the guy who bursts the bubble. DuPont does not have any Brett/bugs,however it is a great Saison strain if you can be patient enough.
 
Is anyone adding bottling yeast to these batches? I would think after ~6 months there should be plenty of active yeast for bottle conditioning but I'm not positive.
 
badlee- the Saison yeast from Dupont is fantastic and I'm actually making a starter from a bottle right now for my next Saison. If you want to add Brett, you can add the dregs from Orval (which I think you got before) at bottling.

Coff - it is not really necessary, but I typically add some dry wine yeast to my beers at bottling. For me it is a very cheap insurance that the bottle will carbonate. A $2 pack lasts me about 10 batches.
 
Pop! Went the bubble.
Almighty, how would you say would be the easiest way to add Brett at bottling time?
OR, if I didn't add Brett at all, I dont need to ferment in a seperate FV from my other batches.Is that right?
 
One of advantages adding Brett to Saisons is that they ferment out so low (or at least they should). I prefer to have my Saisons finish down in the 1.004 or less range. And if this is the case then there is little concern with Brett over-carbing the beer, so it can be added at bottling. I still use thick bottles because I like my Saisons highly carbed.
There are a couple ways to add Brett at bottling:
1. Pour a bottle of dregs into your bottling buckets - could contaminate your bucket and filler, but fine if you are already doing this with your current wild beers
2. Use a pipette to add 1 ml of Brett slurry into each bottle

If you aren't using Brett than there is little chance to infect your equipment with Brett. The Dupont dregs do not have Brett as far as I know.
 
I tried searching for an answer to this question, but couldn't find it; so I'm going to throw it out there:

Has anyone had success pitching the dregs of a 1 gallon experiment into a five gallon batch? It seems like this would be a great money-saving option; especially if you have some unique strains you really want to use.
 
Ah haaaa. The man has a great question there;)
I would also think that it is a great way to get sweat yeast at less cost(or for me, just get yeast that I can't get my grubby little mits on).
 
Yes, I thought I described that earlier in the thread (but it is probably hidden somewhere).

I use these 1 gal batches as test batches to find out if I want to make 5 gal batches of the beer. In the past, there has only been a few beers that I made into 5 gal batches (mostly because I like trying new yeasts) and I simply used the yeast from the 1 gal batch and had great success.

I have done this with both:
Brett (100% Drie Brett in ESB wort)

Sacc (2 - 1 gal batches of Achouffe + Rochefort to use in 5 gals of my Belgian Dark Strong)
 
Update from my 1 gals so far:
IPA with Fantome and Jolly Pumpkin dregs
Got some great overripe tropical fruit flavors from the Brett in the aroma. Mixes well with the Nelson Sauvin late hops to provide a lot of mango. As it warmed, it picked up some extra funky barnyard notes that I wasn't a huge fan of. Virtually no sourness due to the IBUs.

BDS with Jolly Pumpkin, Weyerbacher Riserva, Fantome, Oed Beersel Kriek and tart cherry juice
Really happy with this one. Mouth-puckering sourness (which was to be expected based on the Riserva) with some nice brett leather and horse notes too. Background cherry flavor. My wife pegged the cherry taste without me telling her I added the juice. Ends with some roasty malt notes, which was a little weird tasting to me, but not surprising given the malt bill.

I've got another one gal batch going now - extra one gallon from a Berlinner Weisse with dregs from the BDS, more Jolly Pumpkin dregs and mulberries. It is currently bright pink!

dougdecinces said:
I tried searching for an answer to this question, but couldn't find it; so I'm going to throw it out there:

Has anyone had success pitching the dregs of a 1 gallon experiment into a five gallon batch? It seems like this would be a great money-saving option; especially if you have some unique strains you really want to use.
Click to expand...

I used 2 white labs vials worth of slurry from a one gal batch to inoculate a 5gal batch that had just finished fermenting. Now we wait!
 
So today we pitched a Wyeast pack of Lambic Blend, dated Sept 2008, to some pumpkin wort today. I wonder what happens next.........sorry, totally not on topic.
 
Yes, pumpkin wort. I work @ a brewery and pumpkin beer production has already started. So, as we were knocking out yesterday we pulled a 5gal sample to play with.
 
sweet! I have only brewed one pumpkin beer, which I realy liked.
Hope your experiment turns out well.
 
Well tonight was good and bad... I cracked open my 80 shilling with JP and Orval dregs, it's tastes amazing. Some sour some horse it's tasty. But, the wife got a sip( who am I kidding... She got the rest of the glass) now my 1 gallon supply does not look as plentiful as it once did.
 
Yes, I agree that is the tough part about the 1 gal batches, if you have something great you have a short supply. The good news is you can use the dregs from your 1 gal container and go straight to a 5 gal batch (and then a barrel).
 
Almighty said:
Yes, I agree that is the tough part about the 1 gal batches, if you have something great you have a short supply. The good news is you can use the dregs from your 1 gal container and go straight to a 5 gal batch (and then a barrel).
Click to expand...

I have a 5 gallon batch going. Sounds like a need a barrel. :)
 
I'm getting ready to bottle my first one gallon sour. It's a persimmon amber ale that I pitched Brett Brux on all the way back in December. OG was 1.046, FG was 1.004. Aroma is all barnyard and there's a pleasant tartness on the front that really allows the persimmon flavor to shine through. The base beer for this was mediocre, so I'm very excited that this was a rousing success.
 
I'm two weeks in to a version of the Drunk Owl Mango Sour in the recipes section - decided to do one gallon due to not having enough room to store 5 gallons full of only one beer for 6 months. Doubled the OG from the orginal and used nelson sauvin hops (but with all the trub + hops + mango I'm down about a litre already :(). Think i'll bottle in about a month and let that ride out and pitch the dregs from the one gallon straight into a 5 gallon batch - I'm going to need more of this stuff!
 
dougdecines - I also did a persimmon beer that is now about 1.5 yr old. I added a lb of fresh frozen persimmons to my 1 gal batch with Russian River dregs. I only got a mild citric acid flavor from them. How much did you add?
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/10/dreg-series-russian-river-golden-sour.html

ploppythesausage - I think the addition of Nelson hops to that beer sounds great. I just think you might get a better flavor from the hops if you add them 1 or 2 weeks before you're going to bottle. I have done this with batches that I age a year and then 2 weeks before I bottle I dry-hop them. I have been enjoying fresh hop character with some tartness in my beers.

Also I just did another dreg beer. I used Lost Abbey Red Poppy (using a starter in the bottle) in a 1 gal batch of Flanders Red. I had activity in 24 hrs and if my beer turns out anything like Red Poppy I'll be happy.
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/06/dreg-series-red-poppy-flanders-red.html
 
Almighty said:
dougdecines - I also did a persimmon beer that is now about 1.5 yr old. I added a lb of fresh frozen persimmons to my 1 gal batch with Russian River dregs. I only got a mild citric acid flavor from them. How much did you add?
http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2010/10/dreg-series-russian-river-golden-sour.html
Click to expand...

According to my notes it was roughly 4 lb of persimmon pomace for a 2.5 gallon batch. These are the midwestern persimmons, so they tend to have a more pronounced flavor, even though they're not really a hand fruit. I gathered them in late October and ran them through a foley food mill to extract the pulp. I took the leftover stuff and used that in the beer.

The dregs were from Bayerischer Banhoff Leipzieger Porticus -- a baltic porter with, I believe, Brett Brux. I plan on washing the yeast from this last batch and pitching some of it on a gallon of a Belgian blonde with Rye I made last week.
 

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