Does anyone use Citra as bittering hop?

[Elysium]

I have been using citra as bittering hop (2-3 batches) and I think it imparts relatively harsh bitterness.

Is it only my imagination playing tricks on me and citra cant be used as a dual-purpose hop?

 

[masskrug]

It is typically an aroma hop.

 

[Queequeg]

Yes Citra does impart an unpleasant bitterness. There are loads of single variety Citra beers flooding the UK market at the moment. They all have this problem.

 

[WayFrae]

I have an all Citra RyePA in the fermentor right now. I tasted the gravity sample last night and I didn't notice much of a harsh bitterness but I only used 0.25 oz at 60 min for bittering.

 

[Jayhem]

It's a waste to use it for bittering since it's primarily a flavor/aroma hop. I use Magnum or Super Galena for bittering and then Citra in the last 15 minutes, hop stand and dry hop on my IPAs, APAs.

 

[BrewerDan1]

I have done a few Citra SMaSH (Blonde) and each one came out pretty awesome but I do not go crazy with the bittering addition.

 

[ittybittykittycommittee]

I have done a few Citra SMaSH (Blonde) and each one came out pretty awesome but I do not go crazy with the bittering addition.

How much and at what time? I'm thinking about doing a Citra-only pale ale with 1oz at 60 and 2 oz to dry hop in the keg. Threads like this and one that said it smells like cat-piss make me hesitant though...

 

[fuelish]

Threads like this and one that said it smells like cat-piss make me hesitant though...

One man's cat-piss is another man's nectar ... perhaps

 

[dobe12]

NO! And you should be prosecuted for wasting such a great hop for bittering!!!

Love me some Citra. I do get the cat piss thing, but only when smelling the actual hops before tossing them in the boil. I just love the flavor. My house beer, currently on tap, is a Citra Pale Ale. Kinda like Zombie Dust.

I almost always use something like Magnum to bitter. If I want more of a bite, I'll use Nugget, Columbus, Warrior or something similar with more of an edge. I really like bittering with Magnum, but for bigger IPA's, IIPA's, etc a bigger bite is needed, IMO.

EDIT: One thing I've learned about Citra, a little goes a long way. If using it with another hop like Cascade, Amarillo, Centennial, I will use 1/2 as much as the other hop/hops. Example, when dry hopping an IPA I may add 2oz Cascade, 2oz Centennial, and 1oz of Citra. Too much Citra will completely dominate the flavor profile.

 

[strambo]

Well, if you FWH it you will get a smoother bitterness and some flavor. Keep the bittering addition to under half of the total IBUs and get the rest from late kettle additions 20 min or less and whirlpool.


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[mrphillips]

I've heard marvelous things on this forum from people who have brewed Zombie Dust clones (all citra, beginning to end), but my own experience differs. I used a very small amount to bitter an IPA of mine (.25 oz. + .75 oz cascade), and even the .25 addition gave a very weird, lingering finish to the beer. I know it wasn't the cascade because I've bittered with it successfully several times.

I don't use it before 15 minutes, and usually keep it closer to 5 minute additions for that wonderful citrus POP!

 

[Microscopist]

Yes Citra does impart an unpleasant bitterness. There are loads of single variety Citra beers flooding the UK market at the moment. They all have this problem.

Yeh, I tried one the other week simply called 'Citra', the first few sips were fantastically punchy but halfway down the glass I was pining for a palate cleanser.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...Threads like this and one that said it smells like cat-piss make me hesitant though...

Yes, you SHOULD be hesitant! Threads linking Citra to cat piss go back years. Here's one from 4 years ago:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=3240.0

Just google "citra cat piss" and you'll be busy for days. Here:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=citra+cat+piss

I mainly get the cat piss smell when I compare a Citra beer to another beer. Yeah, I suggest NOT doing that.

 

[theck]

I brewed this and people RAVED about it... didn't use a whole lot for bittering:
Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
11 lbs Briess Pale Malt 2 Row (1.8 SRM) Grain 1 89.8 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.1 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.1 %
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 19.8 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 5 -
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 4.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 7 9.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 8 1.8 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 3.9 IBUs
1.0 pkg English Ale (White Labs #WLP002) [35.49 Yeast 10 -
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days Hop 12 0.0 IBUs

 

[bzwyatt]

I thought simcoe is the cat piss hop...

 

[BrewerDan1]

My SMaSH is 10# 2-Row, 1/2 oz Citra 60 minutes and 1/2 oz at 5 minutes. Once it has conditioned it makes an excellent summer drinker.

 

[jmendez29]

It is typically an aroma hop.

That's what I said!!!!

I got into an argument with a few guys at work who all insisted its a bittering hop. And in all the recipes I've seen with Citra, it seems more heavily favored as a flavor or aroma addition.

Thank you for validating my position. And consider myself subscribed to this thread. I want to see what everyone has to say on this.

 

[masonacoats]

I have a Belgian-Citra-Extra Light Extract kinda-SMaSH in a 1 gallon fermenter as an experiment and didn't get cat piss/ammonia from the hydrometer sample.

As for the harshness, since this is rather high alpha acid hop, why not skip "bittering" additions all together and hop burst with it (that's what I did for the kSMaSH).

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

How much and at what time? I'm thinking about doing a Citra-only pale ale with 1oz at 60 and 2 oz to dry hop in the keg. Threads like this and one that said it smells like cat-piss make me hesitant though...

I was under the impression that was Simcoe not Citra...although i suppose any hops if they arent good could cause it..

And us being Home brewers we get the bottom of the barrel for hops, all the big breweries get to custom pick what hops they want from a farm to get the best of the best, the smaller breweries get the rest on contract, and the rest of the scraps are what gets put in our 2oz packages

Which makes it hard to clone some recipes, because they just have superior hops.

 

[ram5ey]

I can't stand Citra as a traditional bittering hop. I love it when it's later in the boil, for hop bursting, and for dry hops though.

 

[Calichusetts]

Try a larger hop addition at say 30 and 20 minutes to mimic the bitterness of a 60/FWH. I have used it in a FWH without issues but if you are sensitive to this, try it. I often do a 20/15/10/5 addition when working with hops that don't do well as a bittering addition. Though I have not had this issue with Citra as others have.

 

[brettg20]

Citra + bittering = meow


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[Black Island Brewer]

I scored a 37 on an all Citra IPA where I first wort hoped for bittering and got the rest of the bittering from 15 minutes and under additions. No mention of cat piss.

 

[Natdavis777]

Zombie Dust is an all Citra Pale (IPA tech) and it's pretty F'in awesome. I've brewed about 6 pales replicating this beer and do a FWH and then a big hop burst at the end and it always turns out well. I believe it's 0.75oz for the FWH

It's a high Alpha hop. If you aren't treating your water, or are using water with high bicarbonates, it can cause a harsh bitterness


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[MagooBrew]

I make an all Citra pale ale that turns out great. Bittering addition is usually .75 at 45 minutes. Never experienced the cat piss.

 

[EclecticBrews]

Friends love my Citra IIPA (So do I), using all Citra hops, FWH for ~⅓ of IBU then all the rest in 15m through whirlpool additions. Can't keep that beer around right now, 5g went in three days.

 

[chato]

I've used Citra in two beers lately - one for bittering, flavor and aroma in an all-Citra Zombie Dust clone, and then in hopstand and dry hopping an American pale ale. In both cases I'm not really happy with the outcome. Both beers have an amazing aroma when you first pour it into the glass - beautiful mango and tropical fruit. However, in just a few minutes, it changes and the cat piss sort of thing takes over - both in the nose and taste. I don't know the age of the hops I got (online order from morebeer.com), but I believe that age, oxidation, or some factor related to the vintage/harvest must be the problem. There are plenty of Citra dominated commercial beers that don't seem to have this problem.

 

[peterj]

Well, if you FWH it you will get a smoother bitterness and some flavor. Keep the bittering addition to under half of the total IBUs and get the rest from late kettle additions 20 min or less and whirlpool.


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First wort hops don't contribute flavor. It's almost all boiled off just like a traditional bittering addition.

 

[gwapogorilla]

I wish you guys would stop talking about cat piss and citra. I am planning on doing a single-hop bursted something or another this weekend using citra.
I got rid of my Simcoe because I drank 53 bottles of cat box juice...don't wanna go through that again.

 

[Elysium]

First wort hops don't contribute flavor. It's almost all boiled off just like a traditional bittering addition.

I think people mean that the bitterness won't be harsh when you use a certain percentage of your bittering hops as FWH. Correct me if I am wrong though....

People also say to pay a lot of attention to cohumulone contents.....I might as well start doing so.
Just ordered some Mosaic hops which has low cohumulone content. Hope it works out as a mellow, nice bittering hop.

 

[AnOldUR]

First wort hops don't contribute flavor. It's almost all boiled off just like a traditional bittering addition.

From Brewers Friend:

First wort hopping is the method by which a hop addition is added to the boil kettle prior to lautering your grain bed. This allows the hop oils to steep in the 150F-160F wort during the lauter and then be boiled for the entire duration of the boil. There are complex reactions occurring in the hop oils during this low temperature steeping that are not well understood, but the effect is unmistakable. This process is well suited for beers where you would like to accentuate the hop aroma and flavor of your beer ...

 

[peterj]

I think people mean that the bitterness won't be harsh when you use a certain percentage of your bittering hops as FWH. Correct me if I am wrong though....

Yes, this is right. In the reply that I quoted though he stated that it would provide a smooth bitterness and some flavor. The flavor part is not true.

From Brewers Friend:
First wort hopping is the method by which a hop addition is added to the boil kettle prior to lautering your grain bed. This allows the hop oils to steep in the 150F-160F wort during the lauter and then be boiled for the entire duration of the boil. There are complex reactions occurring in the hop oils during this low temperature steeping that are not well understood, but the effect is unmistakable. This process is well suited for beers where you would like to accentuate the hop aroma and flavor of your beer ...

This goes back to a misinterpretation of the concept of FWH. I believe the concept was taken from a paper written in the 90s that described how FWH was used by some German breweries. In the paper they said that it was used to impart a smooth bittering and they believed it helped to accentuate the later flavor hop additions. The actual first wort hops don't provide any flavor themselves.

It's just common sense, why would these hop flavor compounds magically not be boiled off because you added them earlier? If anything they are more likely to be boiled off.

I know this used to come up a lot a few years ago when FWH was really gaining popularity, but I thought everyone finally understood it. I guess not. Maybe it's because of the fact that brewing calculators (at least Brewer's Friend) still incorrectly calculate the IBUs from a FWH like it's a 20 minute addition. I really wish they would correct that.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . why would these hop flavor compounds magically not be boiled off because you added them earlier?

This allows the hop oils to steep in the 150F-160F wort during the lauter and then be boiled for the entire duration of the boil. There are complex reactions occurring in the hop oils during this low temperature steeping that are not well understood, but the effect is unmistakable . . .

I believe there have been blind tests done to support this, but I don't have time to search right now.

 

[peterj]

Actually I just reread the original paper (here is a copy of it: http://www.franklinbrew.org/wp/?page_id=152).

In their experiments they compared beers with only FWH to the "reference" beer with only a traditional bittering addition. They left out all of the late kettle additions for both beers. So basically they were only testing the flavor and aroma contributions of different bittering additions.

They found that in a taste test people usually preferred the FWH beers because they had "a fine, unobstrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer;" and "a more uniform bitterness". So there wasn't more flavor from FWH, people just preferred it to the flavor you get from traditional bittering additions. In fact later in the article they do an analysis of the beers and find there are slightly more IBUs in the FWH beers, and in a chromatograph analysis they find less compounds that they associate with flavor and aroma in the FWH beers. They state that this is not surprising because of the longer boil times for the first wort hops.

I think the confusion comes from the experimental design. To do the experiments, they state that the 2 breweries move hops from their typical late kettle additions up to either the FWH or the bittering addition and then they forgo all late kettle additions. They then suggest that if other breweries would like to do their own experiments, "we recommend that first wort hopping be carried out with at least 30% of the total hop addition, using the later aroma additions." I think people misinterpreted that as how they should use first wort hops in their beers, and then all of us homebrewers kind of took it and ran with it without questioning where the information was coming from.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . brewing calculators (at least Brewer's Friend) still incorrectly calculate the IBUs from a FWH like it's a 20 minute addition. I really wish they would correct that.

I use the older version of Beersmith and it calculates FWH as 10% above normal utilization. I believe that IBU testing supports this, but I set boil time at 20 minutes to lower the calculated amount. To my taste the perceived bitterness is lower with FWH and that is what is important to me. The actual IBU number is useless to the guy drinking the beer. It's all about taste.

 

[peterj]

the effect is unmistakable . . .

One random person saying the "effect is unmistakable" with nothing to back up the claim is not enough to convince me of anything. That's how this whole misunderstanding started in the first place.

I use the older version of Beersmith and it calculates FWH as 10% above normal utilization. I believe that IBU testing supports this, but I set boil time at 20 minutes to lower the calculated amount. To my taste the perceived bitterness is lower with FWH and that is what is important to me. The actual IBU number is useless to the guy drinking the beer. It's all about taste.

I guess our tastes are different because I've used FWH as if they would only contribute the bitterness of a 20 minute addition and the beer was nowhere near that. To my tastes they contribute the same as a bittering addition.

 

[AnOldUR]

They found that in a taste test people usually preferred the FWH beers because they had "a fine, unobstrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer;" and "a more uniform bitterness". So there wasn't more flavor from FWH people just preferred it to the flavor , you get from traditional bittering additions.

I don't understand the logic of your interpretation. You're saying there wasn't more flavor, but there was a different, better flavor.

What are we arguing here?

First wort hops don't contribute flavor.

You can't have it both ways. There is a flavor contribution or there isn't. It's a better contribution or it's not.

 

[peterj]

I don't understand the logic of your interpretation. You're saying there wasn't more flavor, but there was a different, better flavor. What are we arguing here?

I'm saying FWH don't add more flavor to a beer than traditional bittering additions. You just get a different and possibly better flavor than from a traditional bittering addition. But flavor contributions from bittering additions are pretty minimal anyway, and they are almost entirely covered up by late hop additions especially in the typical American IPAs and pale ales that a lot of homebrewers use FWH for.

So I'm saying they will absolutely not contribute the same or anywhere near the amount of flavor as a 20 minute addition, and people shouldn't move their flavor hops to FWH thinking that they will give the same amount of flavor and bitterness. FWH can be used as a bittering addition that will possibly give you a smoother, more pleasant type of bitter taste. And they can be used for a better flavor contribution from the bittering addition in beers with little or no late kettle additions that rely on the bittering hop for flavor contributions.

Haha, maybe we're confused... what are you saying??

 

[peterj]

You can't have it both ways. There is a flavor contribution or there isn't. It's a better contribution or it's not.

Sorry, I guess that was an overstatement. I meant it in the same way that people say the bittering addition doesn't contribute flavor. Both contribute some flavor, but at very low amounts.

 

[Calichusetts]

FWH is by far the most overrated aspect of homebrewing. Its impact is minimal and if you really want flavor and aroma, it comes at the tail end, not the beginning of hop additions.

I do it out of convenience, not out of some preconceive notion of its effectiveness.