DIY glycol chilled plastic conical fermenters

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TrickyDick said:
So I'm basically done now. Need to clean and finish some insulation. Otherwise operational. Sure that I'll have lid sealing issues and still need to connect the blow off hoses.

TD
Click to expand...


Looks awesome, job well done.



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Everything hooked up, doing a trial run today ... Just using all water for the test and limiting it to 50 degrees in the cooler. So far, so good. I'll add glycol next and test the system down to mid 30s.

ImageUploadedByHome Brew1407016251.466711.jpgImageUploadedByHome Brew1407016264.267503.jpg


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Looks good!

I did more work on mine. Basically all done except for the conical insulation, which I've started to cut and trim. Hope I can get the material for all three using three sheet of neoprene. I didn't make a cut-list to see if I will succeed with that plan or not. Wrapped the lizard cord on the bases of the conicals should I ever decide I need to heat them. They are only 25 watts. Not sure how much heating they will be capable of.

Had a few questions for the folks who are using their systems.

How do you keep the thermometers from coming out of the thermowells in the conicals? It might be desirable to make them removable, so I don't want to use anything that I cannot undo later.

How effective is the CIP ball at cleaning the interior of the conical and the coils? Does it clean the lid too? It is my understanding that it is also used to sanitize the conical. What is the procedure? I'm thinking it's probably something like this:

1. Fill bucket with hot water and PBW, connect and recirculate for 5-20 minutes.
2. Drain, dump, and rinse with recirculation for a few minutes with tap water.
3. Fill bucket with StarSan solution, connect and recirculate for 2-3 minutes, drain and drip dry.

How do those times look?

So what have folks been doing? The drying part is supposed to be what matters the most in killing things. However, my experience in homebrewing has been that prolonged soaking is effective without necessarily a drying phase. Trying to dry out a sealed conical seem like it's not going to work since there can be no evaporation.

Seems to me by the way, that sealing the lids of the conicals without using the screws is easier. The one tank I used screws on, the silicone around the screw heads doesn't stay, and I haven't even really started using the tanks yet. Plus seems to offer a better contact area for an o ring or gasket without the screw heads.

Any photos of how folks applied the insulation to be able to read to volume markings?

Last question. Airlocks. I have blow off tubes setup. Attempting to use silicone tubing and share a common bucket of water for an airtrap seems like a recipe for spilling the water. I'm using an old PBW 4# jar for now. Maybe I need something heavier. Where to place it is sort of an issue. What are others doing?

Thanks

TD


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Yes, insulation is next on my list ... From the tests I can see this will be important from a run time perspective ... It's about worse case for me right now, it can keep all three at 68 but runs almost continually ... But it's 80+ in my garage right now. I'll prob add insulation and run the tests again.

I'd be interested to hear answers to your questions from those currently running a system as well.


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As far as cutting the insulation, how are folks doing this? I used a fresh blade on a utility knife and taped a tape measure to the foam using the tape measure as a guide and just cutting the tape as I go. This was fine for the first pieces, but the next few pieces are circular. I certainly do not have a compass that big! I have a silver colored sharpie marker (hope it's still working as it's several years old), some string, and a sharp nail that I was going to fashion a compass out of, but will need a helper to hold the nail or else draw the circle.

Also I notice the lids were not insulated. I would think it might be easy to insulate them at least partially?
Forgot to buy foam pipe insulation tape....

TD


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I choose to use stainless electronic solenoid valves vs ball valves due to cost and what I could find that operates at 110v. I think I paid $35 each at the time, which included shipping.


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ejluttmann- what type of glycol set up do you have running there? pics and description would be appreciated. I ran through the history of the thread cant find any posts on the set up.

Also i see your running 4 separate stc1000 any info on how its setup and how they work with the solenoid valves? I have a knock off that i put on my converted fridge fermentation chamber. i like to keep a few different varieties on tap and I want to do something like this to keep a a few conicals in rotation. so i can vary temperature and cold crash times. something i cant do with the fridge.
 
socounty said:
ejluttmann- what type of glycol set up do you have running there? pics and description would be appreciated. I ran through the history of the thread cant find any posts on the set up.

Also i see your running 4 separate stc1000 any info on how its setup and how they work with the solenoid valves? I have a knock off that i put on my converted fridge fermentation chamber. i like to keep a few different varieties on tap and I want to do something like this to keep a a few conicals in rotation. so i can vary temperature and cold crash times. something i cant do with the fridge.
Click to expand...

My setup is pretty much the same as what is documented on this thread except I'm using an old aquarium chiller my brother gave me in order to cool the glycol, and I'm using stc1000+ controllers (see this thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/stc-1000-a-464348/). I have 3 stc1000+ units to control each conical and 1 to control the temp of the glycol. For the conicals, the cooling switch triggers the solenoid valves to open and the heat switch will trigger heat tape wrapped around the conical. The stc1000+ for the glycol just has the cooling switch turn on the chiller. The glycol pump runs 24/7 and the output goes through the chiller before dumping into the reservoir into the cooler below.

I've only been doing test runs right now. I'm still tweaking the system and I'm contemplating having a second pump to just circulate glycol through the chiller instead of using a single pump. I'm thinking that a second pump dedicated to just cooling the reservoir might help the load on the chiller.

Right now, the chiller has to run almost all the time while keeping all three conicals at temp - however, this was worse case ambient temp while the conicals were not insulated. I'm going to insulate the conicals and try this test again to see how it goes. Also, I was measuring the temp of the glycol inline instead of inside the reservoir, might try changing to take the temp inside the reservoir to see if there is much of a difference in how often the chiller runs.
 
I put thermo wells in the conicals, then insert the probes inside the thermo wells.


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I just stuffed a little piece of the pipe insulation into it after inserting them in the thermo well ;)


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I had a similar problem of the probes sliding out. Once the neoprene is on, they really don't slide out if there is small enough hole in the neoprene that it will grip the wire and hold it in place.

I STILL haven't finished the insulation on last two conicals (but it's all mostly trimmed to size) nor have I fully tested the system. I might end up using it next week for an Oktoberfest.

TD


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Are these hydraulic connectors ok to use?
http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/ISO_7241_Series_B_Quick_Disconnects_Complete_Set_p/700-xx.htm
or do I need to find SS? Also is this solenoid valve OK?
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Norm...e-AC-DC9-24V-SBP-NPT-1-2-SS304/886365354.html
and one last thing....this pump work:
http://surpluscityliquidators.com/view_product/147146/287///COOLANT_RECIRCULATING_PUMP

there used to be a parts list for this project before the related web site was hosed by the creator of this diy....anyone still have that or a link to it? I could especially use some more details on what parts were used for the glycol tank...have most of the parts from ProFlow Dynamics but failed to find any parts for the thru-the-wall fittings..any help there? again thanks

thanks
 
How would one go about sizing a system like this?

Say you want it to service two fermenters, each with an effective jacketed heat transfer area of 0.4 m^2, and you have a 5000 BTU evaporator coil. Ambient is, eh, 85F (it's hot where I am), you'll keep your ~33% solution at a setpoint of 27F, but you don't want your pumps or your evaporator to be on constantly, obviously. How do you size your reservoir appropriately to hit that sweet spot between capital cost (the cooler and pumps, sure, but also the glycol) and ongoing electrical costs? Obviously some of it also comes down to your system sensitivity and setpoints, the size of your pumps (i.e., your flowrates), etc., but are there assumptions or simplifications you can pretty much universally make (most of the heat is going to be coming from the environment, rather than the exothermic fermentation reaction, for instance?) to simplify the equations?

It's one thing to missize your mash tun - you just take the manifold out and put it in a bigger one and stick the missized cooler in your garage for picnics. But once you start cutting out holes to accommodate your twisted evaporator coils and drilling holes here and there for tubes, a cooler becomes a little harder to re-purpose, so I want to make sure I do it right!

Edit: Guess my primary question is about reservoir size, but I'm also interested in how that interplays with pump size ... obviously, if your reservoir's smaller, your pumps need to be able to pick up the slack, but that's only good up to a point (eventually, you're returning glycol that can't be chilled quickly enough for the extra pump power to be worth it). You'll need a certain amount of glycol and certain sized pumps for a certain sized reservoir ... transforming all that in to a cost equation, where's the minimum?
 
Wow. I really can't answer the last question. A bit beyond most home brewer knowledge base I would suspect and bit beyond the scope of this thread. There is a pro brewer forum that you might check out.

Finished up applying insulation. Filled with water. Fiddling with a darn wireless router to setup as a wireless access point and switch in basement. Once that's done Ill setup the system to run a phony fermentation on the water to see how it does and check out the time temp graphs. Probably start off as three lagers at 50 degrees. I could fit a bit more glycol in my reservoir if it cycles too frequently. Don't want to fill all the way to top and have it spilling.

ImageUploadedByHome Brew1411419097.147993.jpg

TD


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thecebruery said:
How would one go about sizing a system like this?

Say you want it to service two fermenters, each with an effective jacketed heat transfer area of 0.4 m^2, and you have a 5000 BTU evaporator coil. Ambient is, eh, 85F (it's hot where I am), you'll keep your ~33% solution at a setpoint of 27F, but you don't want your pumps or your evaporator to be on constantly, obviously. How do you size your reservoir appropriately to hit that sweet spot between capital cost (the cooler and pumps, sure, but also the glycol) and ongoing electrical costs? Obviously some of it also comes down to your system sensitivity and setpoints, the size of your pumps (i.e., your flowrates), etc., but are there assumptions or simplifications you can pretty much universally make (most of the heat is going to be coming from the environment, rather than the exothermic fermentation reaction, for instance?) to simplify the equations?

It's one thing to missize your mash tun - you just take the manifold out and put it in a bigger one and stick the missized cooler in your garage for picnics. But once you start cutting out holes to accommodate your twisted evaporator coils and drilling holes here and there for tubes, a cooler becomes a little harder to re-purpose, so I want to make sure I do it right!

Edit: Guess my primary question is about reservoir size, but I'm also interested in how that interplays with pump size ... obviously, if your reservoir's smaller, your pumps need to be able to pick up the slack, but that's only good up to a point (eventually, you're returning glycol that can't be chilled quickly enough for the extra pump power to be worth it). You'll need a certain amount of glycol and certain sized pumps for a certain sized reservoir ... transforming all that in to a cost equation, where's the minimum?
Click to expand...

I think you might be overthinking the problem a bit - or trying to over optimize. My chiller is about 4000btu/hr and the resevoir is about 12 gallons because that's the shape that fit. For the other systems I've built (up to about 11,000 btu/hr) they're also about 10-12 gallons, because that was the size of the cooler that worked.

Both work pretty well.

I'd say for the size you're talking about anythign from 5-15 gallons will work.

The big constraint you'll run into is with peak loads - aka when crashing a fermenter or pulling down to reach pitch temps (if you can't get there directly from the kettle) Then the bigger the resevoir, the faster you'll get there because the more "cold" you've got stored.

Otherwise, you've really got a wide latitude of values that will work.
 
I had to undersize my reservoir because of my stand design. I could always add more but would be challenging and tedious. I'm getting ready to setup a test chill. I'll let you all know how it performs.


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Testing in progress now.

Need to learn how to save the data log info for display later.

Need to tighten up the base of the conical MPT to TC fitting - getting slow dripping from one fermenter.

Need to figure out why when using the BCS to turn open all valves to cool all three conicals at ones that it pukes and closes the valves on ALL of the tanks. It will only allow two open at once. I am wondering if this is a low voltage on the 12VDC rail? how to test?

Help please!

TD

Edit-definitely something screwy going on. Might be that I need to tweak the PEX manual ball valve that provides resistance to the glycol flow.
The three electrically controlled ball valve operation is not working correctly. I can only get two, any two in combination, to open simultaneously. When I attempt to operate a third, instead of opening, all valves close, and the BCS indicates those processes are active. Again I suspect it could be the voltage on the 12 volt power supply. I'm using the one packet designated, ditto on all the other components. I don't necessarily think the reservoir is undersized. I am curious about how to generate a data log graph for monitoring what happens overnight, or for extended time duration.
 
TrickyDick said:
I don't have mine setup yet, but when I do, yes I will want to be able to do this, as long as it can be done securely ( require a log-in with password ).

I believe port forwarding is done by your router, and not the BCS. You will probably need to log into your router home page by entering its IP address into your browser address bar, then using the ID and password you should have from when you installed and configured your router. Your router manual and often the webpage for the router can walk you through this to some degree. I am by no means a network/IT expert, but have had to wear the amateur version of that hat at home with some success and some failure as well. Depending upon how your internet connection is setup at home, there can be various step needed to accomplish this task. You of course need to know the port numbers that the BCS uses. I've not searched for that yet since mine isn't setup.

TD
Click to expand...

So by the way, I had it written down as far as how to do this. For ME, I desire using the admin password and id, but I do not recall how to type in the remote address.

for instance:

vvv.xxx.zzz.yyy:8080 (and then something like -admin:password) or whatever. Does anyone know the correct syntax for the IP + port + ID + Password??

Thanks.

Also, as an update, My unit undershot the cooling on one conical, by nearly 5 degrees during testing. Wow, the insulation has kept it there for hours! Wondering if I should be using the PID instead of the hysteresis?

Still not able to get all three valves to open at once. Want to see if it'll hold the temps overnight.

have a leaky bottom drain on one conical.

I see the need to apply insulation around the hydraulic QD's because there is significant condensation that collects around the seal and could potentiall drip into the tank - which I suspect is not entirely air-tight.

Right now have all three going: 50, 55, and 65 degrees. I think I probably need to calibrate the temp probes. Need to tape them into the thermowells because one has fallen out already during testing, and I thought things were screwy...

Thanks

TD
 
I have to confess that I have only browsed through parts of this thread, and know very little about bcs. With that being said it sounds like you are running out of amperage to drive the solenoids. Try getting a higher amp supply. In my experience 12v parts always seem to require much higher amps than their 120v counterparts.
 
Spellman said:
I have to confess that I have only browsed through parts of this thread, and know very little about bcs. With that being said it sounds like you are running out of amperage to drive the solenoids. Try getting a higher amp supply. In my experience 12v parts always seem to require much higher amps than their 120v counterparts.
Click to expand...

I'll investigate that issue. Thanks.

It seems that the overnight testing worked out pretty well. The reservoir had larger temp swings than I'd have expected:(32-44ºF). Came on 6 times between 10:30PM and 7:00AM to chill the bath.

The fermenters were basically in a 3º temp swing from their setpoint at the resolution of the graph I'm looking at anyways, typically up to +2 degrees from setpoint to minus 1 degree.

Oddly, once I had chilled the test water in the tanks to the desired test temp point, I was able to get all three tanks operational - perhaps because the valves are operating intermittently and not all at the same time? I'm not sure, but the data graphs show its doing it's job. I have some room for additional coolant in the reservoir and might consider applying some sealant around the lid to prevent it from sloshing out when I move the cart. I am also considering using some leftover neoprene to add extra insulation to the cooler I'm using.

Still need to fix that pesky leak from the bottom of one conical tank. I think some extra teflon tape should do the trick. I am certain that I didn't cross thread those puppies as I was super careful not to do so.

One other issue: The PID display only shows the actual temps, not the setpoints.

Need to find some other forums where the operation of the BCS and whatnot is discussed in greater detail.

Been a fun project, can't wait to finally use this thing! Hope its airtight, but my plan is to keep the original manway gaskets and add some putty-like weatherstriping around the bead if there is any leakage. Seems to be a very inexpensive solution, even if I have to replace the weatherstriping every time I open a tank.

TD
 
Here are my temp graphs. Notice the fancy iPhone snapshot instead of a screen capture.
Is there any thought as to the glycol bath cycling? Appropriate or inappropriate? I can set it for a lower setpoint, though would not necessarily improve the cycling. Thinking about adding another gallon of coolant, and add some insulation to the cooler.

The fermenters are set at 50,55,65 for this test, just so I can easily see the graph lines without overlap. The 65 seems to be stubbornly wanting to average a little less than 65, so maybe that probe needs calibration.

I'm rather impressed with the ability of the AC unit to chill the coolant! Been thinking abut a way to use it to chill wort, as long as I'm not fermenting something at least! Probably still easier to use water to knock boiled wort below 100 then runoff to tank and continue to chill from there.

ImageUploadedByHome Brew1411583560.392349.jpg


TD


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To me those cooling curves for your reservoir seem just fine. The peaks are when its actually cooling a tank. And it seems like the AC unit is doing just fine catching up.

If you want to see less swings in the reservoir then I suggest a larger tank for reserve.
 
Thanks. One flaw in my design was combining both carts onto one. Doing this limited my cooler options significantly, to a smaller cooler than I had planned for initially. I could probably figure a way around this but for now I want to get at using it for a while and see how it performs and more importantly, what it does for my beers. Planning a Oktoberfest next Friday. Lots to do before brew day yet. Thanks for the advice.
TD


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I would like to see pictures of how the stainless lines are connected on the inside of the fermenter lid. I'm not sure how to do mine where they're air tight.
 
I believe that it uses a fully threaded nipple (1/2") through a hole in the lid. Then a rubber or silicone O ring, and then a clever idea. They aren't called washers, but that's what they look like. A larger one goes around the o-ring and another smaller one over the top, then a flat "lock" nut screws over top forming a seal by compressing the O-Ring against the metal ring/washer and lid. Over these, a Hydraulic QD goes on the outside, and a compression fitting on the inside to mate to the SS coil.

I'll try to snap some pics since Packet's website is down now.

I don't know if mine is air-tight or not - haven't tested it yet. Isn't really an easy way to test without making a mess of things - you will either get activity in the air-lock or you won't.

The center hole is the same setup - except you install TC fittings to the nipple. This is for blow-off and also for connecting a CIP ball to inside.

TD
 
I did it a little different than what was shown on Packet's website, cost a little more in parts, but I wanted to do my best to prevent any possible glycol leakage directly into the conical. I used Bore-Through compression fittings on the lid so that the glycol connections to stainless tubing are on outside the conical. Just made me feel better that there are no connections inside the conical to worry about leakage.
 
So I get most of the parts needed for this and get the conical built and most of the plumbing done. Well that was before the website went down. Now I'm ready to go back to work on this, but I don't know if there is any way ill be able to figure it all out without that step by step walk through. Whats the chances that someone has all that info? or what would it take to get that website back up? I sure as hell hope i didn't spend all that money only to not be able to figure out how to finish the project.
 
I have a couple copies printed. Someone else here has all the HTML files I think for the site. Need a place to host it or just see if you can get the files. Best part about those was the hyperlinks for the parts, and the pictures all in one spot.

Let me know if you want I could potentially scan in the. Printouts, though would be a PITA, but it's an option if you can't get the HTML files from someone. Does google have it cached?

TD
 
I think there are some alterations to the wiring since I printed mine. I took notes.

There were a few parts for the panel. One was the painting and drilling. I cheated, and did the mark ups and had a friend do all that.

The other part is basically mounting all the stuff inside, and then another part about wiring it all together. There was never an explicit detailed drawing of where on the removable mounting panel, that all the stuff was supposed to go. That part you'll need to figure out on your own. Once you have that all laid out, you can mark where to drill holes to mount the DIN rails. After that it's a piece of cake. Be sure to account for clearance of the receptacles and switches and what not.

The wiring "diagrams" are pretty easy, and only about 4 pages or so.

I'd be willing to scan the pages if you want them.

TD
 
TrickyDick said:
I think there are some alterations to the wiring since I printed mine. I took notes.

There were a few parts for the panel. One was the painting and drilling. I cheated, and did the mark ups and had a friend do all that.

The other part is basically mounting all the stuff inside, and then another part about wiring it all together. There was never an explicit detailed drawing of where on the removable mounting panel, that all the stuff was supposed to go. That part you'll need to figure out on your own. Once you have that all laid out, you can mark where to drill holes to mount the DIN rails. After that it's a piece of cake. Be sure to account for clearance of the receptacles and switches and what not.

The wiring "diagrams" are pretty easy, and only about 4 pages or so.

I'd be willing to scan the pages if you want them.

TD
Click to expand...

If it wouldn't be too much trouble I would greatly appreciate it! it'll at least give a way to get started on it.
 

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