DIY glycol chilled plastic conical fermenters

[TrickyDick]

Hey, Thanks for the pics!

I'm waiting for a CO2 refill in order to test my first completed conical for airtightness. This is going to be my backup plan.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

So one of my bulkheads for the dip tube is out of tolerance.

Those were very difficult to install. Not looking forward to removing.

I have my plumbing planned out and I had a question. On the design, there are three main lines, one feed the input to the conicals, and another accepts the returns, and then both ramify with a common return line. Since my cart is different than the OP, I really do not need to have the middle common return line run all the way to the end of the cart, since my reservoir in the in middle of the cart, I'm just going to drop it down at the appropriate location. Is there any necessity for having that line be of any specific length? I did sum the length of the coolant path for each conical, and all are equal.

Also, how difficult is it to apply the insulating material to the PEX tubing?

Hoping to have mine finished for brewing May 31. Mounting the tubing has been a stumbling block, but I am going to mount to a wooden board that in turn will be mounted to the cart, and I would like to plumb in all the tubing before I mount the board to the cart.

I still have some wiring to finish up. Tried pressure testing the conicals, and when I set it to 2 psi, I cannot tell if there is an air leak or not. I guess that time will tell. Still have to finish off two more lids and mount the coils to the compression fittings. Tubing bender works like a champ. Also need to install the dip tubes and trim them to desired length, one will have to wait for the correct bulkhead fitting since one was out of spec and the 1/2" tube won't pass. Applying insulation will be the last step.

TD




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[staffordj]

As long as there is a valve after the last conical on the supply line, I don't think it matters where the return line is (within reason of course). That way all three conicals have the same supply pressure. You may want to look back earlier in the thread as packet explained this is detail.

 

[TrickyDick]

OK.

Got that (plumbing) all planned out nicely now. Just need some free time to plumb up the 2x6 board I'm mounting to, drill out some bolt holes to mount to frame, and then holes through the deck for the cooling lines. The aluminum should be relatively soft to drill. Got some grommets that'll fit the tubing perfectly. Will probably need to buy extra pipe insulation for all of the PEX tubing. Aside from one part of the plumbing, the whole thing will be easily take down if I ever needed to. Trying to wrap my brain around that part right now. Which leads into my next question.

It never shows a picture of how the Hydraulic QD fittings that connect to the conical lids are connected to the coolant lines. These have a female 1/2" NPT thread. since the PEX tubing is fairly rigid, I am assuming that Packet was using reinforced braided vinyl tubing for these line, perhaps with a hose barb to pipe thread fitting. I supposed it could be PEX tubing though. I'm not really sure. The Return lines appear to connect to a camlock type connector, but it never shows the connectors for the automated ball valves. I assume these are also to be connected with camlocks? If so I'll need to buy 6 more camlock C connctors for these, plus a 7th for racking beer out of the ball valves fitted with the cam locks as well. I only bought 4 of the camlock C connectors it seems which I'll need to use on the coolant reservoir and to connect it to the plumbing. Now if he is also using Camlocks to connect the Hydraulic QDs , then I'll need 6 more Camlock C connectors for a total of 13. Seems that having a QD connect to a camlock is redundant though, but that's 6 hose barb to MPT connectors I need to buy.

Be nice to hear how other folks connected theirs. I am pretty much stuck with the camlock fittings. I'm wondering how I might be able to eliminate some of these connections, especially since they would end up leaking glycol all over the place if I ever needed to remove them.

TD

Edit-
Ah HAh! I looked through the thread, not just the plastic conical website, and found a part of my answer. Enough to move forward. 6 more camlock C and 6 more hose barb fittings ordered. I think that's the last except for more pipe insulation.

 

[Komocabo]

Go TrickyDick! I've been watching (and drooling) over this thread since it started. I still don't have anything constructive to say, but good on you for keeping at it and asking questions. I just got my 2nd term chamber today (freezer- my old one crapped out on me). I wish I could do this build, but I don't have the energy nor resources at this time to make it happen... back to my new fermentation chamber for now. Keep posting brother!

 

[TrickyDick]

Still forgot to order that additional cam lock for the racking tubing. DOH! $6.99 part, $8.99 shipping.... maybe I'll find one I can get through one of the other places I buy ingredients from with free S&H.

Might be doing the plumbing board today while I'm mashing. Brewing Biermuncher's Cream of Three Crops Ale today. Should make for a refreshing summertime brew.

May 31, Jun 1 is planned as the official christening of the fermentation system, so I need to get at it.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

got the plumbing part essentially done. Need to attach the return line and mount to the frame. I'll mount first to see how I want the return line to go.

Not really looking forward to drilling a whole bunch of 1/2" holes in 3/16" aluminum. I think the coolant holes are 7/8 or even 1" for the grommets.


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[ClaudiusB]

View attachment 201188 got the plumbing part essentially done. Need to attach the return line and mount to the frame. I'll mount first to see how I want the return line to go.

Not really looking forward to drilling a whole bunch of 1/2" holes in 3/16" aluminum. I think the coolant holes are 7/8 or even 1" for the grommets.


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Can't wait for the project done pictures.
Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[TrickyDick]

Work in progress


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[ClaudiusB]

View attachment 201276View attachment 201277
Work in progress


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Thanks for the pics.
Nice and time consuming project.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[eaglerisingbrew]

I love this project. I am still welding the frame together for mine so i will definitely check back here to see your progress.

 

[Travestian]

Can't wait for the project done pictures.
Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Agreed!

 

[TrickyDick]

SO quickie question.

I kinda dig being able to see into the conicals to a degree. once the insulation is on, that's gone. can the system keep them cold, such as extended lagering, even if the there is no insulation? Just curious, as I haven't put on my insulation yet.

Check list for me includes:
last few touches on the control panel, plus hardwiring the ethernet and the temp probes.
minor changes to the glycol reservoir fittings
finish up lids on two of the the conicals
finish trimming dip tubes
finish plumbing in the coolant lines for the lids.

The aluminum drills like butter. no worries there.

Hope to have finished by end of the weekend.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

Few more pics.
Got plumbing mostly done. Last few PEX crimps are going to be very painful to accomplish
In retrospect, I think it would have been better to arrange the coolant holes in the deck differently, which would've simplified the final connections a LOT. I'm not ready to consider drilling new holes (as long as there aren't any leaks).

Seemed that for my application, that I probably have some redundant camlock connections.

Even if in the end I don't like the way I plumbed the PEX tubing, could always re-do it as much of the parts beside the crimps and the short PEX segments can be reused, plus I don't really need a whole of it to begin with.

TD


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[wasitim]

Hey Chris,
How much pressure can you put on that setup without it leaking, or have you ever tried?

 

[Chrisl77]

I am sure it would but I have not pressurized it past the pressure made by fermentation. I don't use pressure to push the beer out of the fermenter I connect a vacuum pump to the gas side of my kegs and a stainless steel racking cane on the out post
that I put in the fermenter though the opening for my thermwell. The vacuum pump does a good job of drawing the beer out of the fermenter and down the dip tube in the keg outlet.

 

[TrickyDick]

I think I need to make plumbing revisions. The side-by-side arrangement of the coolant line holes in the deck doesn't work very well. The PEX tube is too rigid, and I can't get the crimp tool onto some of the rings when its mounted to the cart. I had thought that the side by side would correct since the lids have the hydraulic fittings sort of side by side, however, the plumbing manifold arrangement seems to dictate a different arrangement. Looks like I get to drill 6 more 7/8" holes. This time I'm borrowing a better drill bit though. The drilling process make a total mess. I think I will eventually fill the holes with epoxy and maybe paint afterward.

Looks like its probably NOT going to be ready for use this weekend.

TD

 

[ClaudiusB]

I think I need to make plumbing revisions. The PEX tube is too rigid, and I can't get the crimp tool onto some of the rings when its mounted to the cart.

TD

I am glad I didn't use PEX for my glycol system I made in 2005.

Looks like its probably NOT going to be ready for use this weekend.

You are letting us down


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[staffordj]

SO quickie question.

I kinda dig being able to see into the conicals to a degree. once the insulation is on, that's gone. can the system keep them cold, such as extended lagering, even if the there is no insulation? Just curious, as I haven't put on my insulation yet.

Good progress Tricky. Your system looks great with the Al stand. The insulation helps a lot with temp control. It will also help to keep condensation down, especially if it is humid where you are. The other reason not to leave it off, as you probably know, is light will degrade the beer. If your area is dark and close to the fermentation temp, than it may work. Otherwise, I would use insulation. I have mine setup so it Velcros in the front so I can open it up to check the level during transfer and potentially take a look at it. Since the conical is translucent, you can's see much fermentation activity like you can glass though.

 

[TrickyDick]

Good progress Tricky. Your system looks great with the Al stand. The insulation helps a lot with temp control. It will also help to keep condensation down, especially if it is humid where you are. The other reason not to leave it off, as you probably know, is light will degrade the beer. If your area is dark and close to the fermentation temp, than it may work. Otherwise, I would use insulation. I have mine setup so it Velcros in the front so I can open it up to check the level during transfer and potentially take a look at it. Since the conical is translucent, you can's see much fermentation activity like you can glass though.

Good idea on the velcro. I foresee the insulation as the most PITA part of the project. crawling beneath, double sided tape, etc. I do like the idea of a sight level to see what the volumes are. I'm wondering about maybe doing a hole in the velcro to put a light, or maybe even hardwiring some bulbs I can turn on, beneath the insulation opposite the volume graduations to transilluminate the conicals to be able to read the measurements. Just turn it on when you want to type thing. Maybe a couple christmas light strings...
Dunno. for now I just want it done.

TD

 

[Mellman]

I am glad I didn't use PEX for my glycol system I made in 2005.



You are letting us down


Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Whatd you use instead of pex?

 

[TrickyDick]

Probably hard plumbed stainless. He has a link somewhere to his brewery, which is pretty awesome as I recall.

I pulled my plumbing "manifold" off, got to make some measurements for revising the pass-through coolant lines, then drill 6 more 7/8" holes and patch existing. I've marked up the hole positions for drilling so the PEX Tee fittings line up better with holes, but will need to mock up the PEX connections before making measurements for final drilling. I think it'll be worth it once it's all done, because it'll have a nice look to it. Once that's done, I should be off to the races. Still have much to do, but this is the part holding me up. It'll really be a relief once this project is finished. It's a pita racking and what not with my existing setup and loading fermenters into the ferm-freezer.

TD




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[TrickyDick]

By the way, brewed a Saison over weekend. Wanted to ferment high, but weather in FL not cooperative. It's been up to 80 on the porch, but no higher (in the shade), and nights low 70's. Been wondering how to adapt the plastic conical for heating?
Was thinking maybe wrap a heating element before applying insulation? What is a good heat source? I wonder would I get good enough heating across the plastic to support 80-85° without damage to neoprene or HDPE? I could probably swap out a thermocouple probe and hook to a STC temp controller independently of the cooling system. I don't think the BCS can run heating AND cooling in the current setup I am using. Might also be nice to be able to "free" rise Belgian fermentations in my similar manner.

Who has successfully add a heating component to theirs without using the reservoir with aquarium element for heating?

TD


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[Komocabo]

Didn't some folks use heat wrap? What about flexible reptile heater cord? I use that in my fermenter and it works like a charm ($25?)

 

[eaglerisingbrew]

Didn't some folks use heat wrap? What about flexible reptile heater cord? I use that in my fermenter and it works like a charm ($25?)

I picked up a reptile heater element that plugs in like a light bulb. Still haven't needed to use it but I expect it should work out fine.

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks guys. I heat-wrap I don't think is the same size as the conical. I have some but I don't think it will fit onto the side of the conical. The reptile cord I wonder if it would melt the plastic. I'm wondering about just some heating pads or something. I want to mount them on the conical itself and then cover with insulation. I'm not getting the lightbulb thing.

TD

 

[Chrisl77]

I use the cord with no issues. I just taped it to the conical without insulation.

 

[Komocabo]

If I remember right, the cord only gets to 90°F. So should have no issues getting too hot. It's made to have direct contact with reptiles, so... Anyways, you could wrap it around a few times the conical, then cover with insulation

 

[TrickyDick]

Where can I buy some? What voltage does it use?
How much you think I'd need to heat each 15 gal conical?
Thanks!


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[Komocabo]

Amazon. Standard wall outlet is fine. Comes in 50' and 25' lengths

 

[TrickyDick]

I found some 15' lengths. Bought three. Have an STC-1000 I bought for building a dry cure chamber, that's not been started yet. I may borrow that for when I want to heat. Maybe use some of my leftover temp probe panel connectors and then I can easily use the same thermocouple for doing heat or cool. I don't think The BCS as wired in this application is capable of doing both heating and cooling control. Plus, I don't have relays for the heat cord, and would have to re drill control panel case to try and modify at this point. Just as easy to hookup one fermenter to an STC the few times I imagine I will want to deliberately heat one. Though might be nice for doing diacetyl rests if I ever wanted to. Ok, now I'm just rambling.

TD


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[calebstringer]

This maybe BCS v4.0 specific, but this was posted by JonW in the ECC forum

 

[staffordj]

Who has successfully add a heating component to theirs without using the reservoir with aquarium element for heating?

Check out my previous post: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/di...al-fermenters-413406/index56.html#post6066344

I used flexwatt. Works great to bring it into the 70's when the weather is cold. The heat tape is supposed to stay under ~90F, so it may be able to bring it up to 80F as long as the ambient temp is not too low. I haven't gone above 74F yet.

 

[TrickyDick]

I finished up the plumbing tonight....FINALLY! Need to apply some insulation still.

I am thinking about going over to stainless conicals I found at bru-gear.com. very nice looking and comes with option for through the lid chilling input. sealable. $450 ea. only 14" diameter, but I think I have come up with a workaround to get them mounted to my stand with minimal ugliness. Only caveat is that they aren't currently in stock....

I still need to finish up the wiring: connecting all the thermowells to the input sockets on the controller box, and add the sheathing to make it look pretty and tack it down. The wooden board I added for mounting the PEX tubing to will make a handy mounting point for the wiring on the reverse side.

The controller box itself is nearly done. I still need to finish the connections to the driver board and BCS from the thermocouple inputs and ball valves inputs that are case mounted. I also want to run the BCS off the same voltage source as the rest of the DC stuff and step down the voltage with a resistor array (yeah, its gonna be ugly). This seems to be the only way I can obtain a common ground with the driver board, and the rest of the system.

Going to just wrap the lizard cord around the conicals and leave for now. not sure if I'll ever use them, but be nice if I ever need to heat. Will wrap with the insulation after that.. though I am thinking about saving these items for the stainless tanks so I don't have to buy again.

Still don't have the racking arms installed. one of three is out of spec and the racking arm will not fit. replacements on backorder.

Two tanks still need the inner lip removed and the tops prepped with silicone treatment. Only one lid has all the fittings installed so far. The tanks have all the stuff installed (except racking arms).

Have not yet installed the coolant coil to the finished lid, but all the bends are ready for immediate attachment whenever.

Seems like there is gonna be a liquidation sale going on here soon of leftover parts.

I have plenty of PEX tubing left for another person to do this project, which packet gave me for free (Shipping incl!) Ready to "Beer it forward" to the next person, along with whatever spare PEX fittings I have (which ain't much). I need to get it finished and leak tested before I'm able to part with anything just yet however.

It's starting to look pretty good overall. Can't wait to begin using it! I'll post some pics when I have more time, and maybe as I make some more progress. For now it look the same except with some tubing sticking up through the deck and some CamLock fittings at the ends.

TD

 

[wasitim]

So I may have stumbled onto something accidentally regarding how to heat the conicals.

Somewhere along the line, I had set up fermenter 3 to come back on if there was a power failure. I also had used the typical ladder logic where the pump is always configured to be on when any of the fermenters call for chill.

The problem is that I didn't ensure that the glycol chiller was enabled to come on at power up after power failure.

So, think about it.
The power came back on.
Fermenter 3 process powered up.
Since I had a set point of 65 on fermenter 3 and the ambient was 70, it called for chill immediately and the pump came on.
Since the glycol chiller wasn't required to be on, the pump ran and generated heat.
Eventually, it got the glycol boiling to the point where it spilled out of the cooler!.
Luckily, I caught it before it evaporated all of glycol.

Unfortunately, I didn't figure out what caused this the first time. Yeah there was second time. Yesterday I went down and found 15 gallons of Weizen at 115F. Decided to analyze more closely and found the issue described above. The beer was 75% fermented so it will be interesting to see where it ends up. I had it fermenting at a nice cool 58F until this point. The power outages were attributed to being on a GFCI controlled by a bathroom plug that was tripped.

So this has me thinking. It wouldn't work when I have multiple fermenters filled with differing heat/chill needs, but, if I need to bring the beer above ambient, it seems I could figure out a way to set the logic up such that running the pump without the chiller (air conditioner) running, I should be able to control the glycol in such a way that it heats the fermenting wort. The pump obviously adds a sh*t ton of heat to the system.

Gotta run to work and will be thinking on this for a bit but I'd appreciate others feedback on the idea.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm..

Interesting.

Question, I know we here like to talk about "glycol". It seems that there are a variety of "glycols" available. The food grade stuff that is harmless to ingest in small quantities is what we want to use. What is the full chemical name? I thought I was sure it was polypropylene glycol, but it seems it might simply be propylene glycol. I believe these are two different compounds, and not sure that they have the same chemical properties. I took some leftover food grade USP polypropylene glycol from a partially full 55 gallon drum used to fill the chiller for the MRI install at work. It was leftover that we had already paid for and would have been disposed of. I have the gallons. For my reservoir, I need two gallons. Plus I'll have leftover just in case I have a spill or something.

So in looking into the boil point on "glycol" I discovered that I didn't know if polypropylene glycol and propylene glycol are really the same thing. Does anybody know if I can safely use the polypropylene glycol instead of the propylene glycol?
I can't find much about PPG, and starting to wonder if I should attempt to verify if my stuff is PPG or PG before using.

Regardless, I know the PG and PPG are flammable, so I would probably not want to use it in a system where it's going to be boiling.

TD


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[wasitim]

Well, we'd never want to boil it. That was an accident. But we could be talking about warming it to the high 70s.

 

[TrickyDick]

Pics of latest progress. I've temporarily removed the actual conicals.

TD


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[TrickyDick]

Leak tested and had some leaking on the output side of the cooler fitting with pressure gauge and tee. Not tight enough. Will have to disassemble to re tighten since I can't easily get a wrench with enough torque with it installed. No PEX leaks. Guess those crimps all turned out good. I couldn't really understand the point of the GO-NO GO tool. Anyways. Turns out my PG solution is propylene glycol 40%. What freeze point do I need protection down to? I have basically an 8 gallon cooler, minus the space occupied by the hardware/pump/condenser. I have a photo from the label on the drum. Turns out we still have over 60 gallons on site. I have only three gallons at home, that all my container would hold.

Here is a picture from the drum that says how much I'll need as a percentage of volume. I am starting to think just use 100% of the 40% glycol. Don't know how cold the condenser coils get.

Need another wrench to tighten the SS coils onto the compression fittings, then I'll have one conical done (except for the dip tube because that's the conical with the bad fitting. Hopefully I'll be finished by the end of the week and testing it out. Key word here is hopefully.

TD



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[TrickyDick]

OK,

needed more pipe insulation, but got the plumbing all done. For some reason, I can't get a complete seal on the Tee that the pump output goes to, despite putting it in a vise and using a wrench with all my might, and plenty of teflon. Drips a teeny bit, I might drill another hole in the lid for the coolant to find its way back inside rather than fight it (for now anyway), but really annoying. Otherwise no leaks.

Have one Conical all done except for the insulation and the dip tube because of the out-of-spec bulkhead. Have the SS cooling coil all installed and tightened up. Have the AC and pump and valve wiring all done (realized I mounted the mini cable outlets into the control panel the wrong way.... need to remove and re-install.) Have a harness for the valves all done and sheathed.

Need to finish up wiring the panel external plugs/connections to the components on the control panel.

Reason I'm posting, as that I seem to recall some issue I was thinking about the BCS power and the Driver Board power source.

The BCS uses 6 volts, the driver board uses 12 volts, the PSU in the panel is a 12 volt. I think that the driver board will wire the +12VDC to the PSU output, and the Ground will actually go to the negative supply of the PSU, not a chassis ground. Was thinking that I should make a simple voltage divider to split the 12vdc into 6 volts and run the BCS from the PSU not the wallbrick adapter. this would give the BCS a common ground with the driver board and seems to make better sense from an electrical theory pov. I'm no electrical engineer though. I'm sure that it'll work fine with the wallbrick instead.
Just wanted to get some input/feedback on this.

Also wanted to ask how much low temp freeze protection I need. It'll matter how much coolant I'll need. is 10' F enough?

Hopefully I'm done with at least one conical control (and everything working) by the end of the weekend. Been thinking about switching over to SS conicals such as the ones at Bru-Gear, with through-the-lid coolant lines. Too bad I've got 19" holes for the plastics already, cause these are much narrower. Gonna get the plastics working first and then see what I think.

TD