Discussion on malty German beers

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It’s a romantic notion. It served it purpose. Now it’s more of a marketing deal. Don’t get my wrong they follow it. With technology and science brought many a cheats. I.e galvanized pipe strategically located in the brewed to pick up zinc, water salts, hop extract, lab propagated yeast oozing with zinc, etc etc.

What I have learned in my German encounters is that there is much more than what meets the eye. Sure Weyermann is decades old, sure they follow age old techniques however they are much like Jayjay and his sousvide. They are follow said techniques with cutting edge technology and science to get not only a better product (malt modification, lower protien, better extract) more product and a more consistent product. Just like the farmers growing the barley for decades, but now with herbicide gps and self driving tractors. [emoji6]

We all want to believe that history was somehow better, it’s nostalgic and cool to learn about. The sad truth is in the case of beer, it wasn’t even close. Take decoction for instance. Decoction was not some beer enhancing product is was brought about out of necessity. They didn’t have thermometers, and had poor grain quality. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. You could take a volume of grain, heat that to a known consistent temp (boiling) add it back and that would raise the temp of main portion. Easy peasy. Due to science and technology we now have thermometers and can heat in other ways. They studied the beers made with the different methods and found more bad than good and stopped.
In the case of macro beer decoction was stopped again out of necessity. Power consumption and time consumption were probably the biggest factors. Takes a lot of time and energy to heat large volumes to boil and hold them. Much faster to just heat the entire volume and step though. Also the drive to knock out 4-6 batches in a day pretty much stopped it in its tracks. That and modern malt just doesn’t need it anymore.

The real story is that the Japanese really started to pioneer brewing science and technology, and zee Germans were the first to jump on the bandwagon.

The REAL secret to malty German beers is this. Mashing and brewing in the absence of oxygen does a few things. Namely way less color pick up, and it doesn’t oxidize malts (specifically cara, and melanoidan heavy malts). So there for a German pilsner is rarely just pilsner or pils and carafoam. with say a high portion of cara or Munich malts gets super malty yet dry from all the melaoidian in the specialty malt.
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?
View attachment 600345

How about this helles?
View attachment 600346
Guessing "German Base Malts" Pilsner & Munich.

There's a common recurrence here, Jeff Alworth said the malt is what American homebrewers overlook

Jeff Alworth said the secret to a Malty Helles is "German Grains". This is from the mouth of Florian Kuplent at Urban Chestnut.

This book goes on to talk about best Weizen/weissbier is made with open fermentation to get more esters and phenols. Using your brew kettle vs your fermenter since it has wider opening. Again "Using German Grains" - Hans Peter Drexler, Scheider & Sohn

Same with Alts and Kolsch it "German Malt" and very hard water. - Christoph Tenge, Hausbraueri Uerige

Now Gose, "German Malt", kettle sour from wheat malt, and tall cylindrical fermenters to keep ester and phenols down. A tiny about of table salt. - Matthias Richter, Bayerischer Banhoff

And Weisse, "German Malt possibly French Wheat", no hops, no air, use speise for high carbonation. - Alan Taylor, Zoiglhaus Brewing
 
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?
View attachment 600345

View attachment 600346

Your turn... guess... :D

Two grain ingredients in all three beers....

Both are German Malts....


Rauchbier with Apple

20171130_184054.jpeg


Grazter with Oak

20180526_154350.jpeg


Rauchbier with Beech

20181104_235241.jpeg
 
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Yes, I know Florian. But of course the secret to german beer is german grains.. What else would it be?

The pilsner has 20% light munich, and the helles has a base malt of 2srm (normally 1.6 or so), and 8% carahell.
 
Yes, I know Florian. But of course the secret to german beer is german grains.. What else would it be?

The pilsner has 20% light munich, and the helles has a base malt of 2srm (normally 1.6 or so), and 8% carahell.
From what I read its mainly that fact, of using German grains. He mentions many American brewers try to use domestic grains.

He mentions there's no real tricks to brewing a great lager. Small breweries decoct. Many larger ones don't. Weihenstephan uses decoction, Ayinger doesn't. A Helles beer doesn't require decoction but one can do a single or a double.

The important points are the ingredients the documenting the process, that lighter styles are hard to keep consistent with the controls that most homebrewers have at their disposal.

His Helles recipe was GERMAN Pilsner 97% and CaraHell 3%. Step infusion, 122F, 144F, 162F, 172F.

Hallertauer at 90 min 8 IBU, 45 min 5 IBU, 10 min 5 IBU.

Ferment 7-10 days 46F, lager 3 weeks 30F

Wyeast 2206/2308 or White Labs wlp830/833
 
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Yes, I know Florian. But of course the secret to german beer is german grains.. What else would it be?

The pilsner has 20% light munich, and the helles has a base malt of 2srm (normally 1.6 or so), and 8% carahell.
Both the dark rauch are Avanguard Pale malt converted into rauch via home smoking and then some home made black malt.

The gratzer is all oak smoked, half German pilsner and American wheat.
 
Didn't mean to over-state the obvious. But Alworth claims the maltiness comes from the German grain not so much the process.


Common subs.... For Weyermans

When you get Pilsner are you getting American 2-row, when you get Munich are you getting Briess' Bonlander, Vienna vs Ashburne. The American equivalent of the German grain.

https://www.brew.is/files/malt.html

Kinda like is orange roughy really orange roughy or is it some other fish flesh that is white.
 
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It’s a romantic notion. It served it purpose. Now it’s more of a marketing deal. Don’t get my wrong they follow it. With technology and science brought many a cheats. I.e galvanized pipe strategically located in the brewed to pick up zinc, water salts, hop extract, lab propagated yeast oozing with zinc, etc etc.

What I have learned in my German encounters is that there is much more than what meets the eye. Sure Weyermann is decades old, sure they follow age old techniques however they are much like Jayjay and his sousvide. They are follow said techniques with cutting edge technology and science to get not only a better product (malt modification, lower protien, better extract) more product and a more consistent product. Just like the farmers growing the barley for decades, but now with herbicide gps and self driving tractors. [emoji6]

We all want to believe that history was somehow better, it’s nostalgic and cool to learn about. The sad truth is in the case of beer, it wasn’t even close. Take decoction for instance. Decoction was not some beer enhancing product is was brought about out of necessity. They didn’t have thermometers, and had poor grain quality. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. You could take a volume of grain, heat that to a known consistent temp (boiling) add it back and that would raise the temp of main portion. Easy peasy. Due to science and technology we now have thermometers and can heat in other ways. They studied the beers made with the different methods and found more bad than good and stopped.
In the case of macro beer decoction was stopped again out of necessity. Power consumption and time consumption were probably the biggest factors. Takes a lot of time and energy to heat large volumes to boil and hold them. Much faster to just heat the entire volume and step though. Also the drive to knock out 4-6 batches in a day pretty much stopped it in its tracks. That and modern malt just doesn’t need it anymore.

The real story is that the Japanese really started to pioneer brewing science and technology, and zee Germans were the first to jump on the bandwagon.

The REAL secret to malty German beers is this. Mashing and brewing in the absence of oxygen does a few things. Namely way less color pick up, and it doesn’t oxidize malts (specifically cara, and melanoidan heavy malts). So there for a German pilsner is rarely just pilsner or pils and carafoam. with say a high portion of cara or Munich malts gets super malty yet dry from all the melaoidian in the specialty malt.
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?
PUiwu62.jpg


How about this helles?
YP6j3nJ.jpg

I’m curious where you get your glassware?
 
I guess, this is the reason why I don't read home brew books. They are all wrong, and to me if they are wrong about german beers, I am sure they are wrong about others.
 
I guess, this is the reason why I don't read home brew books. They are all wrong, and to me if they are wrong about german beers, I am sure they are wrong about others.

How do we know that you're NOT the one that's wrong?

Did you learn from a pro?

Maybe your pro learned from homebrew books going back a 1000 years.

What if your pro was wrong and now you're wrong?

Also maybe the brewery lied about decoction just to throw you off the malty beer trail and they are now decocting in secret? Hmm?

You certainly like painting with a large paint brush....

... now show me your mash paddle!
5a766d4979d9e0fa1776f9d08f164ff8--distressed-furniture-painted-furniture.jpeg
 
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How do we know that you're NOT the one that's wrong?

Did you learn from a pro?

Maybe your pro learned from homebrew books going back a 1000 years.

What if your pro was wrong and now you're wrong?

Also maybe the brewery lied about decoction just to throw you off the malty beer trail and they are now decocting in secret? Hmm?

You certainly like painting with a large paint brush....

... now show me your mash paddle!View attachment 600393

I learned from Wehienstephan. With in the last few years. Nothing but current day in my process.
 
Yea. Those 2 I linked earlier. One is german only (Narziß die bierbraueri band 2). Kunze is in English. Narziß is more geared towards Munich breweries, and Kunze is more towards the others. Both are required course materials. My 7 year old reads Kunze every night before bed.
 
Might as well include the preceding page. #73

This brings up an interesting point that is often overlooked in the U.S; many German breweries are not using the standard pils, vienna, and munich malt as we buy from Weyermann or Bestmaltz. Most large breweries have their own unique malt specs that are unlike what we'd expect a pils or munich malt conform to.

I was suprised to hear a brewer at VLB jokingly mention that German brewers only buy Weyermann specialty malts and the base malt is sold to Americans and brewpubs at high prices.
 
Very true. Ayinger has bags upon bags of Weyermann carafa and caramunich laying everywhere. Most everyone has their own custom basemalts. I cheat and blend barke pils and Weyermann pale ale to create mine.
 
This brings up an interesting point that is often overlooked in the U.S; many German breweries are not using the standard pils, vienna, and munich malt as we buy from Weyermann or Bestmaltz. Most large breweries have their own unique malt specs that are unlike what we'd expect a pils or munich malt conform to.

I was suprised to hear a brewer at VLB jokingly mention that German brewers only buy Weyermann specialty malts and the base malt is sold to Americans and brewpubs at high prices.
That totally makes sense.

I buy steel for a living. But we buy special formulations within a common everyday low carbon, hot rolled, steel grade. HR1010 or HR1020
 
So fun surprise... I brewed a california common on a whim a few weeks back and it was a kitchen sink beer. I used 5lb of 6-row and 6lb of weyerman pils malt and some crystal 80 - all of it over a year old (I had no great expectations for this beer)

The malt flavor is great! I did absolutely nothing special, and I even used a single infusion mash out of laziness. It reminds me of a more drinkable and crisp Redhook ESB, very bready and attenuated. I fermented with S189 at 63F (warm).

I have to assume that it is the 6-row adding this flavor due to the higher protein and husk volume. Fully anecdotal, but interesting that it turned out so well for being a lazy day brew.
 
I am brewing my english bitter today, but as a good sport I am implementing the following processes:

preboiled mash water
20 ppm Na-Meta
mash cap - normal for me (for heat retention)
hockhurtz mash -normal for me
first wort hopping - normal for me
gentle boil
oversized yeast pitch
O2 added after the pitch - normal for me
fermentation toward the cool end

I'll report back anything I notice as being different (other than the extra hour this will add to my brew day :rolleyes:)
 
This worked great in MYbock a few months ago... S-189 warm.

I'm amazed how clean it is. I can't detect any esters at all, but it is admittedly pretty hoppy, and I left it in primary for a full 2 weeks which probably allowed the yeast to really clean up after itself.
 
Mash complete - Noticed zero difference as compared to my normal mash - taste clarity and smell all on par

I assume that I have just not done it right ;)
 
Is there anyone who lives in North Georgia who does LoDo Brewing? I would love to do a side-by-side brew with the same recipe to highlight the differences
 
So fun surprise... I brewed a california common on a whim a few weeks back and it was a kitchen sink beer. I used 5lb of 6-row and 6lb of weyerman pils malt and some crystal 80 - all of it over a year old (I had no great expectations for this beer)

The malt flavor is great! I did absolutely nothing special, and I even used a single infusion mash out of laziness. It reminds me of a more drinkable and crisp Redhook ESB, very bready and attenuated. I fermented with S189 at 63F (warm).

I have to assume that it is the 6-row adding this flavor due to the higher protein and husk volume. Fully anecdotal, but interesting that it turned out so well for being a lazy day brew.
No no... I bet you just accidentally followed the whole lodo thing including praying to the goddess of oxygen, may she be blessed.
 
I am brewing my english bitter today, but as a good sport I am implementing the following processes:

preboiled mash water
20 ppm Na-Meta
mash cap - normal for me (for heat retention)
hockhurtz mash -normal for me
first wort hopping - normal for me
gentle boil
oversized yeast pitch
O2 added after the pitch - normal for me
fermentation toward the cool end

I'll report back anything I notice as being different (other than the extra hour this will add to my brew day :rolleyes:)

What is the current LODO approach for adding O2, I thought I recall seeing something about adding O2 post pitch could lead so some issues?
 
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the low oxygen brewing website recommends adding pure O2 immediately post pitch so that the yeast absorbs it more quickly. I'm still boiling right now, but when I get there, I intend to use an oxygen stone to bubble O2 through the already pitched wort for approximately 1 minute. I don't have a method of measuring flow right now, so this is a really imprecise addition
 
I thought I read there was a change to do O2 pre pitch, some about preventing the yeast from absorbing something and to help reduce the chances of sulfur aroma in the beer. If I got that backward that could explain the sulfur aroma from the LODO beers I made.

The two ales had it in the final beer notty(22ppm), US05(10ppm) and the one lager,WLP835 lager X(10ppm), had a elevated sulfur output during fermentation but does not seem to have it in the final beer. WLP835 is normally quite clean for me during fermentation. Both ales also had a slight minerally finish as well.

I did the mini mash test and it for sure made a lighter wort but stunk of DMS, the other two did not.

I think the actual beers I made LODO could be a bit lighter than normal but I did not do a control brew to confirm that. I was going to do the lager recipe grain bill again today using my normal process to do a control but I am feeling lazy maybe tomorrow.

edit: One other thing I did notice was a slightly raw grain/cereal flavor in the two ales. If that is the "it" flavor I am not sure I am a fan.
 
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IMG_5764.JPG
my post brewing Dunkel looking gorgeous

My Lodo ESB turned out... Totally normal... No obvious differences between final wort vs any other brew day, should be a good bitter

I'll try it again next time when I brew a pilsner in a couple weeks.. Maybe it only works on German styles?
 
View attachment 600535 my post brewing Dunkel looking gorgeous

My Lodo ESB turned out... Totally normal... No obvious differences between final wort vs any other brew day, should be a good bitter

I'll try it again next time when I brew a pilsner in a couple weeks.. Maybe it only works on German styles?

A racist brewing technique? :p

Der Führer hätte nur LODO gebraut!
 
the low oxygen brewing website recommends adding pure O2 immediately post pitch so that the yeast absorbs it more quickly. I'm still boiling right now, but when I get there, I intend to use an oxygen stone to bubble O2 through the already pitched wort for approximately 1 minute. I don't have a method of measuring flow right now, so this is a really imprecise addition
Here are a couple posts that implies there is benefit to oxygenate prior to pitching. Hope all works out well with your beer.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...as-unsubstantiated.654814/page-2#post-8380595
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...as-unsubstantiated.654814/page-2#post-8380986
 
I think it’s the secret to making an off the charts IPA that lasts for months too.

Yep. I have a NEIPA that is a few months old and barely diminishing in flavour and aroma. If you follow some of the threads around here there is plenty of "My NEIPA tasted great to start with and is now brown and flavourless".
 
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