Discussion on malty German beers

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applescrap said:
I believe there are merits to this method and from the get go remained open and curious. As opposed to fermentation temp control, ph, and a myriad of other factors that I remain skeptic about. I look forward to down the road when we know exactly what matters and when.
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If you don't believe temperature or pH control makes a difference then most likely you are not going to realize any benefit from employing the low oxygen processes.
 
Bilsch said:
If you don't believe temperature or pH control makes a difference then most likely you are not going to realize any benefit from employing the low oxygen processes.
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The simpsons golden promise, spring water and killer recipes probably dont benefit me either. At least I got a hydrometer now. Man it made a world of difference! Also, now I get to talk about sticking my dipstick in the beer too!
 
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So I just tasted my ESB and I can taste the SMB in it!

It tastes sharp and metallic on the end of my tongue with a strange minerally background flavor... I didn't overdose.. I calculated it twice and had my wife do a sanity check.. 0.51 grams to hit 15ppm in 34L of mash water

I tasted a grain of the SMB powder and it matches the sharp metallic tang I'm tasting in my beer

It's only been fermenting a week and is currently at 1.015 and I just transferred to a keg to finish out the last couple gravity points over the next week. Maybe it will dissipate...but I'm irritated
 
I was do the Kochhurz mash and didn't know it. Especially when I used the oversized mash tun, but it was by accident and the incessant need to stir every 15 minutes.
 
TheMadKing said:
So I just tasted my ESB and I can taste the SMB in it!

It tastes sharp and metallic on the end of my tongue with a strange minerally background flavor... I didn't overdose.. I calculated it twice and had my wife do a sanity check.. 0.51 grams to hit 15ppm in 34L of mash water

I tasted a grain of the SMB powder and it matches the sharp metallic tang I'm tasting in my beer

It's only been fermenting a week and is currently at 1.015 and I just transferred to a keg to finish out the last couple gravity points over the next week. Maybe it will dissipate...but I'm irritated
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You didn’t not oxygenate enough. If you tasted residual sulfites (which there should not be any) that means you didn’t expend all of them before your yeast started to consume them.
 
TheMadKing said:
So I just tasted my ESB and I can taste the SMB in it!

It tastes sharp and metallic on the end of my tongue with a strange minerally background flavor... I didn't overdose.. I calculated it twice and had my wife do a sanity check.. 0.51 grams to hit 15ppm in 34L of mash water

I tasted a grain of the SMB powder and it matches the sharp metallic tang I'm tasting in my beer

It's only been fermenting a week and is currently at 1.015 and I just transferred to a keg to finish out the last couple gravity points over the next week. Maybe it will dissipate...but I'm irritated
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Maybe that's "it"! ;)
 
TheMadKing said:
I bubbled pure O2 through my wort for 1 minute just post pitch...
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Then all of the residual sulfite would have been converted to Na and SO4.

At 0.5 gram, you’d be hard pressed to taste a contribution from NaMeta in 16 or so gallons of water.

Was there anything else new introduced in your process? New equipment?
 
Yea, and it wasn’t enough, clearly. This is why we recommend sulfite test strips. A DO meter would work as well. DO will start going up when sulfites are expended.
 
RPIScotty said:
Then all of the residual sulfite would have been converted to Na and SO4.

At 0.5 gram, you’d be hard pressed to taste a contribution from NaMeta in 16 or so gallons of water.

Was there anything else new introduced in your process? New equipment?
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That's 9 gallons... 34L

No new equipment
 
TheMadKing said:
That's 9 gallons... 34L

No new equipment
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Right. My mistake.

That’s interesting to say the least. Even in 9 gallons that’s an awfully small amount to have a noticable impact on flavor, especially given the assumption that you converted the rest post pitch.

I’d wait until it’s packaged and ready to drink before you raise the fire alarm. Could be something that will dissipate.
 
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Die_Beerery said:
You didn’t not oxygenate enough. If you tasted residual sulfites (which there should not be any) that means you didn’t expend all of them before your yeast started to consume them.
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could it also mean his process is tight enough that he does not need that much SMB?

I used 10ppm and got a similar thing even with oxygen before pitching, one beer was distinctively sulfury.
 
Who says it was converted? Without any measuring device it’s a guess at best.


No, you could use 100ppm. You just need to get rid of all the sulfites. If you don’t have sulfite stripes, or a do meter it’s a guess... at best.
 
RPIScotty said:
Right. My mistake.

That’s interesting to say the least. Even in 9 gallons that’s an awfully small amount to have a noticable impact on flavor, especially given the fact that you converted the rest post pitch.

I’d wait until it’s packaged and ready to drink before you raise the fire alarm. Could be something that will dissipate.
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Agreed, I always give beers a few weeks before I really judge them. It just caught me by surprise.

I'll get some sulfite strips so I can measure on the next batch
 
I thought I read in the original LODO thread here some yeasts could be problematic, is that case and are there any known yeasts that should be avoided?
 
ba-brewer said:
I thought I read in the original LODO thread here some yeasts could be problematic, is that case and are there any known yeasts that should be avoided?
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Shout out to @stpug for being the keeper of the following info over on our forum:

Edit: It might be reasonable to speculate that if a yeast strain has the potential to put off detectable sulfur in a beer all by itself - with the exception of lager yeast - then it could be considered a poor yeast choice for low oxygen brewing due to the potential for huge sufury residual aromas. An alternative approach would be to minimize the sulfite dosage for those strains that are sensitive (i.e. <=10ppm sulfite dose). Another, possibly more valid, school of thought is that if you can ensure full sulfite expenditure during oxygenation of the wort at pitching time then you can mitigate any sulfur/sulfide issues regardless of strain. This last item is perhaps the most probable at this time.

The topic of yeast choice for low dissolved oxygen brewing (aka Low O2, LO2, LODO) seems to be a critical one when it comes to sulfur-related compounds in the finished beer. Below I'm listing some yeast strains that have been used with low O2 brewing and how they've worked out; along with linking the yeast strain name to the post where the member mentioned it (some links may be to offsite forums).

Good Yeast Choices:
  • ALE: Safale US-05 (30mg/l) - "works fine and is my house ale yeast"
  • ALE: Imperial A38 (Juice) (??g/l) - "Took well to Low O2 methods [in NEIPA], no residual sulfur notes."
  • ALE: WY1056 (30mg/l) - no residual; no sulfur during fermentation; no farty aromas
  • ALE: WY1098 (30mg/l) - "didn't detect any sulfur"
  • ALE: WY1099 (30mg/l) - "Works with usual amount of SBT"
  • ALE: WY1272 (50mg/l) - "no sulfur issues"
  • ALE: WY1318 (40mg/l) - "didn't notice any sulfur"; maybe low dosage is key <=40ppm (see 1318 below in Iffy section)
  • ALE: WY1450 (60-70mg/l) - "1450 has handled it -sulfites- well for me"
  • ALE: WY1450 (50mg/l) - "no sulphur issues"
  • ALE: WY1968 (35mg/l) - "4 batches and no problems have been observed at high and low pitching rates"
  • ALE: WY2565 (35mg/l) - "tastes great/less filling" +1
  • ALE: WY3068 (?mg/l) - SMB&BtB, awesome, works
  • ALE: WY3711/WY3724 blend (50/50)(44mg/l) - "no sulphur issues"
  • ALE: WY3726/ImpRustic (30mg/l) - "Zero sulfur @ .25g trifecta/gal. Just killer saison goodness."
  • ALE: WY3787 (50mg/l) - "no sulfur issues" and "some great success with 30ppm Kmeta"
  • ALE: WLP007 (?mg/l) - works
  • ALE: WLP029 (25-36mg/l) - "IPA [and kolsch] and no sulfur issues" (link)
  • ALE: WLP033 (20mg/l) - no sulfur detected at all at this ppm; probably up to 30 could be safe
  • ALE: WLP090 (?mg/l) - works
  • ALE: WLP565 (30mg/l) - "Just tapped a keg of saison using that yeast/smb dosage and it's great."
  • ALE: WLP566 (30mg/l) - "no sulfur issues in my Saison"
  • LAGER: WLP835 (80mg/l) - "no excessive sulfur issues even with moderately high doses"
  • LAGER: WY2035 (50mg/l) - mild residual but complementary (may be poor choice w/ high levels of SMB, see below)
  • LAGER: Most German Lager strains(30mg/l) - see exceptions below
  • LAGER: Saflager S-23 (?mg/l) - works

Potential "Iffy" Yeast Choices:
  • ALE: Safale S-04 (??mg/l) - "I did one [beer] with S-04 last year and did not like it, not one little bit."
  • ALE: WY1318 (50mg/l) - minimal to no residual; present but not overwhelming; maybe low dosage is key <=30ppm
  • ALE: Lallemand London ESB (37mg/l) - mild residual (subtly distracting) but cleaned up pretty good over time; maybe low dosage is key <=30ppm
  • ALE: ImpStefon (10mg/l) - Big sulfur-producing yeast strain, even with zero sulfites. Careful on your sulfite level. At 10ppm sulfites, it's been stinky rhino farts for weeks. pkrone (3068 above) and I have had starkly different experiences so ymmv.
  • LAGER: WLP820 (10mg/l) - "notorious sulfur producer and even warm fermenting takes about 6 weeks of lagering"

Poor Yeast Choices:
  • ALE: WLP351 (16-20mg/l) - "sulfur hell. almost dump-worthy"
  • ALE: WLP530 (45mg/l) - "total sulfur bomb, using the same SBT dosing I used for both an IPA and a pilsner recently." Perhaps aim for <20mg/L with this strain and report back.
  • ALE: WLP568 (50mg/l) - huge residual; egg farts; nasty in aroma and taste; did not clean up
  • ALE: Safale K-97 (30mg/l) - huge residual; egg farts; nasty aroma/taste; clean up is minimal
  • LAGER: WY2035 (100mg/l) - "huge sulfur bomb; took many months to become drinkable" (may be okay at lower levels; see above)
(Keep in mind that these observations are based on the tastes of the individual brewers who reported it and takes into acccount the ppm or mg/l in parentheses they used.

In some cases the ppm value of Meta used likely played a bigger role than the yeast itself in sulfur production/perception)
 
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TheMadKing said:
I tasted a grain of the SMB powder and it matches the sharp metallic tang I'm tasting in my beer

Maybe it will dissipate...but I'm irritated
Click to expand...

Some are more sensitive to sulfites Then others and I can more feel it's effects then taste it in small amounts. As mentioned already, oxygenating the wort to the proper amount before pitching was very effective in my system however I have since switched to a nitrogen purged setup and no longer use the scavenger.

I'm sorry you are irritated but it's just one step on the LOB learning curve. My first all grain batch and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc were kind of a disaster as was my first low oxygen brew. Wasn't till closer to 20 batches in that I had a pretty good handle on it. Now it's just old hat.
 
SanPancho said:
So your educated opinion is that if you “malt properly” then you magically get no staling or other off flavors in a beer? No relation whatsoever to brewing process, packaging, aging, etc. Why dont you take that gem to the lodo boys and get a reaction?

And last i checked theres been plenty of gene splicing, slicing and dicing going on all over the globe and we’ve still got plenty of good flavor going around.

Weyerman is overrated.
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My casually-informed knowledge, listening to an undisputed master of his craft, is that LOX is deactivated with an adequate kilning of 185F for some (I think it was 15?) minutes, and regardless not detrimental to overall kilning profile.

My amateurish, personal opinion was that the Viking malt, which is a rebrand taken on by DMG, pales in comparison to Weyermann malt of an equivalent profile.

Finally, your conclusion from my post is laughable. How on earth did you draw the conclusion that well-malted barley would prevent staling? If you oxidize it, it will all taste like Mikkeller.

Weyermann might be overrated, but I have compared it side by side to Danish and (your beloved) Polish malt, and will stick with the dub.
 
Bilsch said:
Some are more sensitive to sulfites Then others and I can more feel it's effects then taste it in small amounts. As mentioned already, oxygenating the wort to the proper amount before pitching was very effective in my system however I have since switched to a nitrogen purged setup and no longer use the scavenger.

I'm sorry you are irritated but it's just one step on the LOB learning curve. My first all grain batch and the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc were kind of a disaster as was my first low oxygen brew. Wasn't till closer to 20 batches in that I had a pretty good handle on it. Now it's just old hat.
Click to expand...

I don't think I'm one of those people who have an imaginary sulfite allergy...

I drink wine with no issue and that's always sulfited pretty heavily... It's entirely possible that what I'm tasting isn't the SMB at all, just similar.

The only other thing I did differently was add yeast nutrient to this batch so maybe there was an interaction there
 
TheMadKing said:
I don't think I'm one of those people who have an imaginary sulfite allergy...

I drink wine with no issue and that's always sulfited pretty heavily... It's entirely possible that what I'm tasting isn't the SMB at all, just similar.

The only other thing I did differently was add yeast nutrient to this batch so maybe there was an interaction there
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Wyeast nutrient? How much?
 
Mer-man said:
My casually-informed knowledge, listening to an undisputed master of his craft, is that LOX is deactivated with an adequate kilning of 185F for some (I think it was 15?) minutes, and regardless not detrimental to overall kilning profile.

My amateurish, personal opinion was that the Viking malt, which is a rebrand taken on by DMG, pales in comparison to Weyermann malt of an equivalent profile.

Finally, your conclusion from my post is laughable. How on earth did you draw the conclusion that well-malted barley would prevent staling? If you oxidize it, it will all taste like Mikkeller.

Weyermann might be overrated, but I have compared it side by side to Danish and (your beloved) Polish malt, and will stick with the dub.
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Beloved malt eh? Funny.......its not in any of my recipes.

Your conclusion and logic are laughable.
 
TheMadKing said:
2 teaspoons

That tastes and smells like ammonia
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That’s about 4 times the recommended amount. You added quite a bit of zinc and additional sulfate.

I would guess that the metallic flavor may be coming from the levels of manganese contributed by overdosing the yeast nutrient. IIRC, 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons gives 0.5 ppm Mn, and 1 ppm is the taste threshold. So at close to 4 times the recommended dose, you may very likely be getting the metallic flavor of manganese.

EDIT: I checked back the older thread here when a Gent contacted Wyeast about the concentrations of minerals, etc. and Mr. Brungard chimed in that it’s actually 0.1 ppm for taste threshold for Mn!
 
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TheMadKing said:
2 teaspoons

That tastes and smells like ammonia
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My vial says 2.2gm or 1/2 teaspoon, I weighed out 1 teaspoon and got 3.5gms.

here is a link that has information about yeast, but it mentions something about being careful not to use too much nutrient as one type can cause a mineral/bloody like flavor is used at 1tablespoon per 5 gals which is more than you used.
https://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/yeast-propagation-and-maintenance-principles-and-practices

In my first two LODO batches I used 2gm and only 1gm in the last which had the worst sulfur aroma.
 
RPIScotty said:
That’s about 4 times the recommended amount. You added quite a bit of zinc and additional sulfate.

I would guess that the metallic flavor may be coming from the levels of manganese contributed by overdosing the yeast nutrient. IIRC, 1/2 tsp per 5 gallons gives 0.5 ppm Mn, and 1 ppm is the taste threshold. So at close to 4 times the recommended dose, you may very likely be getting the metallic flavor of manganese.
Click to expand...

The recommended dose is 1 teaspoon per gallon as per the instructions on the bottle. It is BSG yeast nutrient, diammonium phosphate intended for wine.

That seemed high to me so I looked it up and most people use 1-2 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch of beer so I followed those recommendations.
 
TheMadKing said:
The recommended dose is 1 teaspoon per gallon as per the instructions on the bottle. It is BSG yeast nutrient, diammonium phosphate intended for wine.

That seemed high to me so I looked it up and most people use 1-2 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch of beer so I followed those recommendations.
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IMG_0192.JPG
IMG_0192.JPG
 
TheMadKing said:
The recommended dose is 1 teaspoon per gallon as per the instructions on the bottle. It is BSG yeast nutrient, diammonium phosphate intended for wine.

That seemed high to me so I looked it up and most people use 1-2 teaspoons for a 5 gallon batch of beer so I followed those recommendations.
Click to expand...

I thought you were using Wyeast. So what I mentioned doesn’t apply.
 
dmtaylor said:
Magnesium is nasty. Epsom. Potassium ain't any better either.
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Like most things in this world it comes down to how much. But more importantly.. what does that have to do with anything in this thread?
 
Bilsch said:
Like most things in this world it comes down to how much. But more importantly.. what does that have to do with anything in this thread?
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I think that ship sailed a hundred posts ago...
 
dmtaylor said:
Magnesium is nasty. Epsom. Potassium ain't any better either.
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The dose makes the poison

I have used Epsom for a brewing salt addition with no ill effects, though i don't know what my ppm are from this.

I pitched 450 billion cells of yeast so if that's the issue, hopefully the yeast can metabolize most of it and drop out. I'm going to give it at least another week to finish attenuating.
 

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