Discussion on malty German beers

[Schlenkerla]

I'll test it out thanks!

I'm also curious about some of the other LoDo techniques as standalone contributors, specifically:

Higher than normal pitch rate
Lower than normal pitch temperature
Non-standard fermentation profile
Sodium in the finished water profile
Conditioning grain before milling
Preboiling water
Naturally carbonating in a keg

I'm thinking that I want to test all of these in isolation. That's just a lot of variables to change simultaneously to be able to attribute all of the change in the finished product to lower oxygen alone.

What your describing is process design of experiments (DOE). You could do a fractional factorial or full factorial. Both take awhile and require a lot of beer making/drinking. 32 batches of beer.

If you limited your factors to say the three or four to limit the number of test batches for a DOE test. The problem is you potentially block out interactions.

The reason on for doing a fractional factorial or full factorial is to find interactions. This is better than OFAAT as you suggest. (One factor at a time)

Like low pitch rate and low pitch temp working together and only together. Possibly a three way integration like non standard fermentation profile with the other two.

Do you have access to mini tab? You can make 7^2 DOE with that software or just search the internet for the test pattern.

This is your 7^2

https://www.itl.nist.gov/div898/handbook/pri/section3/eqns/2to7m2.txt

So you listed 7 factors of brewing, now you need to set two levels

Factors:

X1 - Hi/low pitch rate
X2 - Low/lower pitch temp
X3 - Standard/non standard fermentation profile.
X4 - Hi/low sodium in water profile
X5 - Fresh/aged grain condition
X6 - Hi/low pre boil temps
X7 - Natural/force carb

Levels:

+1 high settings, std, fresh, natural
-1 low settings, n-std, aged, forced

The numbers on the left are the batches of beer.


X1 X2 X3 X4 X5 X6 X7
--------------------------
1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 +1 +1
2 +1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1
3 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1
4 +1 +1 -1 -1 -1 +1 +1
5 -1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1 +1
6 +1 -1 +1 -1 -1 +1 -1
7 -1 +1 +1 -1 -1 +1 -1
8 +1 +1 +1 -1 -1 -1 +1
9 -1 -1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1
10 +1 -1 -1 +1 -1 +1 +1
11 -1 +1 -1 +1 -1 +1 +1
12 +1 +1 -1 +1 -1 -1 -1
13 -1 -1 +1 +1 -1 +1 -1
14 +1 -1 +1 +1 -1 -1 +1
15 -1 +1 +1 +1 -1 -1 +1
16 +1 +1 +1 +1 -1 +1 -1
17 -1 -1 -1 -1 +1 +1 -1
18 +1 -1 -1 -1 +1 -1 +1
19 -1 +1 -1 -1 +1 -1 +1
20 +1 +1 -1 -1 +1 +1 -1
21 -1 -1 +1 -1 +1 -1 -1
22 +1 -1 +1 -1 +1 +1 +1
23 -1 +1 +1 -1 +1 +1 +1
24 +1 +1 +1 -1 +1 -1 -1
25 -1 -1 -1 +1 +1 -1 +1
26 +1 -1 -1 +1 +1 +1 -1
27 -1 +1 -1 +1 +1 +1 -1
28 +1 +1 -1 +1 +1 -1 +1
29 -1 -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
30 +1 -1 +1 +1 +1 -1 -1
31 -1 +1 +1 +1 +1 -1 -1
32 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

This might take you three years if you brew once a month. Twice a month, would take a year and three months. This would get you all the different combinations tested.

I'm a 6-Sigma Blackbelt... First time for a beer DOE.

[emoji482]

 

[Die_Beerery]

Or you could just listen and follow the advice guidelines of the LOB paper, and be done.
2-3 brews of fantastic beer to get the process down. Or a few years. Either way.

 

[TheMadKing]

Or you could just listen and follow the advice guidelines of the LOB paper, and be done.
2-3 brews of fantastic beer to get the process down. Or a few years. Either way.

I already brew fantastic beer and I'm not in the habit of accepting a methodology that is not fully understood by anyone at face value without fiddling with it.

I'm in no rush and I'll be making beer for years anyway, so while I probably won't adopt a full six sigma DOE process control regime, I can eliminate a number of those permutations with some educated guessing.

I respect the fact that you make great beer, but if your LoDo beers have ever won a silver medal and a non-lodo beer won a gold, that's enough to cause me to doubt.

I despise the very notion that anyone should stop questioning and accept claims at face value. That arrogant and authoritative ideology is precisely what turned me off to it in the first place.

Whether it's true or not, I would take my inferior beer and free thought over perfect beer and blind faith any day.

 

[Die_Beerery]

If you brew fantastic beer then why are you asking how to make better beer?

Have fun on your journey. We won’t rag on you too much when you come over to our side [emoji6]

 

[Schlenkerla]

Or you could just listen and follow the advice guidelines of the LOB paper, and be done.
2-3 brews of fantastic beer to get the process down. Or a few years. Either way.

You're missing the point, it requires more brewing and a lot of beer drinking all in the name of science!


Nothing wrong with that. I'd bet every beer I'd be Dee-lish-us.

Not to mention he would need help with all that product performance testing.

 

[schematix]

Now, in all modesty, I make pretty decent beer. It's technically good meaning that there's not usually detectable flaws resulting from technique or process and rarely off flavors. When I make a German beer though, I struggle to get the incredibly refined "malty but attenuated" flavor characteristic of these styles.

I already brew fantastic beer and I'm not in the habit of accepting a methodology that is not fully understood by anyone at face value without fiddling with it.

Happy to see in about 120 posts you went from 'pretty decent' beer to 'fantastic' beer.

At the end of the day low oxygen isn't a religion. There's no faith. You follow the steps to get certain qualities, or you don't. What's happening is actually well understood and is written about in scientific brewing literature.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ouch.

 

[Miraculix]

Lodo in this forum is such a pain in the behind.

I really think thick and long decoction does the trick. All this maillard stuff going on.... As I said melanoidin malt did it for me. 5 to 10 % of the grist.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Lodo in this forum is such a pain in the behind.

I really think thick and long decoction does the trick. All this maillard stuff going on.... As I said melanoidin malt did it for me. 5 to 10 % of the grist.

For clarity, would that mean melanoidin and single infusion achieved for you a similar general maltiness perception as for decoction?

 

[Miraculix]

For clarity, would that mean melanoidin and single infusion achieved for you a similar general maltiness perception as for decoction?

Well, I actually do not know, as I never did a decoction myself. But as melanoidin was giving me that malty thing I was looking for, and it is often said that it is used to mimic a decoction mash, my conclusion was that a decoction probably also does the trick, as long as it is thick enough and long enough to promote maillard reactions.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I am going to post a little aside...

Lets take the time machine and travel back to 2014. Where me and another fella, exchanged beers. I at the time was also making "fantastic" beers that were falling flat when compared to real German counter parts. I had tried every trick in book to no avail To my surprise the fella I exchanged beers with, had the same issues going on. We were determined to figure it out. This included gathering others who had the same issues. Low and behold, after many test batches we solved the problem. The solution? Following the processes of what these large breweries do. Since it's inception there have been many a skeptics. So as part of my goals in this, it was to provide the necessary resources and material for people (skeptics, geeks, curious) to have these available to them. I have spent the better part of 4 years, reading all these references, making contacts in the industry (name a large German Brewery, and I bet I have a contact), and even getting coursework and some schooling from a very prestigious German brewing school. That information is located here, on my websites resources page (http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/). We live in the day and age where I don't think sticking your fingers in your ears, and shouting is not an acceptable answer. Some of the staunchest haters, refuse to read any material about it, and then turn around and badmouth us for some zealotry. ALL of our practices are not only referenced, they are from sound brewing science and is trained today in the worlds best brewing schools. I realize our stuff is geared towards homebrewers. I realize that these are advanced, and sometimes difficult process and procedures. However, just because one doesn't want to put forth said effort, does not discount the methods. The methods and science are 100% sound. With that said, you will not reproduce larger German brewery beer characteristics using ANY standard homebrew methods in use today, this is a fact.

Now whether someone chooses to believe that not is up to them. It however does not change the facts.

 

[dmtaylor]

Please do not bring up LODO techniques on this thread, that is not my intent.

Well, this thread turned out EXACTLY the way I expected.

 

[bierhaus15]

ALL of our practices are not only referenced, they are from sound brewing science and is trained today in the worlds best brewing schools.

Still waiting for that list of German breweries adding metabisulfate to their beer, or an example from VLB or Weihenstephan where they advocate its use.

 

[schematix]

Still waiting for that list of German breweries adding metabisulfate to their beer, or an example from VLB or Weihenstephan where they advocate its use.

Simple answer here.

They don’t use it. There was never any claim sulfites are how German breweries do it, because it’s not.

It’s a workaround for home brewers to get the results. When dosed correctly it’s all consumed and converted to some acid and some salts.

 

[bierhaus15]

It is completely absurd that the principle additive/process for "LOWDO" brewing is based on the use of a product that no professional German brewer (or otherwise) would ever recommend. And yet the lowdo cabal continues to insist that this process is part of an established brewing tradition and curriculum?! Where are they teaching this?! Who is using it professionally? Again...

ALL of our practices are not only referenced, they are from sound brewing science and is trained today in the worlds best brewing schools.

I am not wholly anti-LOWDO; elements of the process are becoming the norm for large breweries and there are benefits therein. However, claiming a process superiority based on bits and pieces of half-truths helps no one.

 

[cactusgarrett]

This is an interesting conversation, but one I wish would gravitate back toward the original subject at hand.

Personally, I'll be brewing the third iteration of my festbier this weekend. I'm doing a VERY unscientific approach with the goal of comparing all three iterations that i've recently done (std 5gal batch) to obtain the best/maltiest festbier I can make:

1) 4oz melanoidin, single infusion at 152-154°F
2) no melanoidin, decoction & hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)
3) 4oz melanoidin, hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)

The first version was done in Sept and the keg has kicked a while ago so comparison to v2 and v3 will have to rely on memory. But v2 and v3 will only be a week apart. Again, i'm aware of the very unscientific approach of this, but sometimes quick & dirty yield results.

 

[dmtaylor]

This is an interesting conversation, but one I wish would gravitate back toward the original subject at hand.

Personally, I'll be brewing the third iteration of my festbier this weekend. I'm doing a VERY unscientific approach with the goal of comparing all three iterations that i've recently done (std 5gal batch) to obtain the best/maltiest festbier I can make:

1) 4oz melanoidin, single infusion at 152-154°F
2) no melanoiding, decoction & hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)
3) 4oz melanoidin, hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)

The first version was done in Sept and the keg has kicked a while ago so comparison to v2 and v3 will have to rely on memory. But v2 and v3 will only be a week apart. Again, i'm aware of the very unscientific approach of this, but sometimes quick & dirty yield results.

I did almost the same thing a couple years ago, with options 1 and 2 only (not 3). In blind tasting, 16 other people and I were able to reliably tell the difference....... but not for the reasons that I expected. The two beers had subtle differences, but we didn’t really find a difference in the malt character. It was just really difficult to describe. My memory now is fuzzy but I concluded that basically, a LOT more experiments would be needed to find out what the difference really comes from... and that I’m not going to bother trying as I’m pretty lazy and this is a lot of work.

 

[cactusgarrett]

So they could tell the difference... do you recall which was preferred?

 

[dmtaylor]

So they could tell the difference... do you recall which was preferred?

I do not recall exactly. I believe it was split close to 50/50.

 

[Die_Beerery]

It is completely absurd that the principle additive/process for "LOWDO" brewing is based on the use of a product that no professional German brewer (or otherwise) would ever recommend. And yet the lowdo cabal continues to insist that this process is part of an established brewing tradition and curriculum?! Where are they teaching this?! Who is using it professionally? Again...



I am not wholly anti-LOWDO; elements of the process are becoming the norm for large breweries and there are benefits therein. However, claiming a process superiority based on bits and pieces of half-truths helps no one.

You are missing the Forrest for the trees my friend. You also have your fingers in your ears (eyes?) and are shouting at nothing. I need you to calm down and not only read, but comprehend what I am going to tell you.

Ok are we ready?


Let us take for example a little brewery by the name of Weihenstephaner, we should all be familiar with it, no? I am going to use it to compare that of low oxygen brewing methods (mine).

It's widely known, (and taught in school at Weihenstephan) that the brewery has an Ion exchanger at one brewery, RO in the other. They then strip all oxygen with vortex/o2-stripper. This helps them with fenton reactions, and mashing with no oxygen. Also deaeration equipment for liquor is standard in any moderately sized brewery because the DO has to be low at packaging, especially in export beers. Some breweries even put a pillow of nitrogen over their grain bed in the lauter Tun. It’s so wide and shallow in non-British breweries that the wort can pick up a lot of o2. These are facts, these are TAUGHT.

Weihenstephaner- RO and zero DO water-
Low Oxygen Brewing- We recommend RO water and some form of water dexoygenation (preboil or YOS). If you chose to use tap water, use BTB ( this helps with fenton reactions)



Polyphenols aid in increasing flavor stability, because of their reducing properties, so if they are oxidized it is not good. If the husks remain intact and you keep oxygen out, i.e. avoid hot side aeration, polyphenol oxidase cannot catalyse the oxidation reaction with such alacrity.

Weihenstephaner has a very special mill that allows for them to mill the grain with this deoxygenated water (wet mill), thereby there is very little oxygen in this process as well. This specialized mill, this mill gets the perfect crush for extract and lauterability.
Low Oxygen Brewing - recommends some grain conditioning, to help keep husks intact. This helps with extract and lauterability.



It is taught in school that some breweries (hint nearly all German Macros) even put a pillow of nitrogen over their grain bed in the lauter Tun. It’s so wide and shallow in non-British breweries that the wort can pick up a lot of o2. These are facts, these are TAUGHT. There are also manufactures of chemical antioxidants to control HSA- namely AEB-http://www.********************/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/ANTIOXINSBT.pdf . A bit off topic, but all this stuff is listed on the references page of the site, along with studies of the use of it...Antioxidant section. It uses metabisulifte, ascorbic acid, and brewtanB.

Weihenstephaner- purges all pipes with their low oxygen water, they purge vessels with n2. They have sealed vessels. They also have this little thing called the square cube law on their side. In layman's terms this means as a vessel size grows it's volume (height) grows faster than its surface area. This matters because only the surface of the liquid (wort in this case) is potentially exposed.
Low Oxygen Brewing - Realizes that due to our surface are difference (much more oxygen exposure), and we recommend some form of a mash cap. This stops surface absorption of O2 (2ppm per hr). We also recommend some form of antioxidant, either SBT or camden tablets ( straight metabisulfite).



Now I don't know who is using SBT professionally, but I can assure you that if no one was, they would not be making it. Also upon oxidation of these they break down to either sodium and sulfate, or K and sulfate. They are completely undetectable and harmless. Some would argue even RHB compliant due to their nature.. they could be used simply as water salts...



Commercial boil rates are much lower than homebrewing, and the thermal stress much less as well. In school TBI (boil stress) is much talked about and new boiling systems are very popular. TBI has been shown to degregate the beer quite bit. In the professional books they talk of how to measure and the optimal measurements.

Weihenstephaner- has a state of the art brewery, and the boiling system is no different. Minimal evaporation loss, and TBI.
Low Oxygen Brewing- recommends a lid partially covered, this allows the evaporation to be substantially lowered, and due to that, you can turn the power down. This allows for less thermal loading of the wort.



Trub and its various elements (hot break, cold break, hops, etc) has long been know along with a plethora of (professional) studies to be negative to beer. It is taught that hot break and hop matter should be absent in wort. If not using an assimulation yeast, then a little bit of cold break CAN be desired.

Weihenstephaner- uses an assimulation yeast, therefore transfers bright beer to the tank.
Low Oxygen Brewing- recommends a nice whirlpool, and short sedimentation time. Clear wort, to the fermenter, with just enough cold break.



Pitch rate and Fermentation. Pretty standard practice, we pitch at commercial rates and ferment cold.



Spunding for carbonation. Cold side oxidation starts when fermentation is done. Professionals have specialized equipment and a seemly endless supply of co2. They can purge a brite tank for 8hrs, and measure DO with some very expensive equipment.

Weihenstephaner- is going to cap the tanks, it's standard practice. Anytime beer is moved it will be with low DO water pre purge and or n2/co2. SUPER low DO numbers, as it has to be for shelf life and exports.
Low Oxygen Brewing- recommends spunding. Normally folks don't have pressure capable fermenters, or low do water around to push beer. It's the only way we can get commercial DO values.




Low oxygen brewing in the homebrew world has ALWAYS BEEN the adaptation from professional to home. We don't have the luxury of multimillion dollar equipment. So these methods and procedures emulate professional teachings and practice. I will never understand why the anger around it.

 

[Miraculix]

Why are you feeling the urge to keep posting lodo stuff in a thread which said in the introduction that op doesn't want to hear about it?

If somebody asks you NOT to tell him about your work/life balance plans, are you also going to start justifying why working compressed hours is super beneficial?

 

[Rockn_M]

This is an interesting conversation, but one I wish would gravitate back toward the original subject at hand.

Personally, I'll be brewing the third iteration of my festbier this weekend. I'm doing a VERY unscientific approach with the goal of comparing all three iterations that i've recently done (std 5gal batch) to obtain the best/maltiest festbier I can make:

1) 4oz melanoidin, single infusion at 152-154°F
2) no melanoidin, decoction & hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)
3) 4oz melanoidin, hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)

The first version was done in Sept and the keg has kicked a while ago so comparison to v2 and v3 will have to rely on memory. But v2 and v3 will only be a week apart. Again, i'm aware of the very unscientific approach of this, but sometimes quick & dirty yield results.

I'm looking for brewing a festbier next weekend. Would you be willing to share your recipe? Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

This is an interesting conversation, but one I wish would gravitate back toward the original subject at hand.

Personally, I'll be brewing the third iteration of my festbier this weekend. I'm doing a VERY unscientific approach with the goal of comparing all three iterations that i've recently done (std 5gal batch) to obtain the best/maltiest festbier I can make:

1) 4oz melanoidin, single infusion at 152-154°F
2) no melanoidin, decoction & hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)
3) 4oz melanoidin, hochkurz mash schedule (144°F -> 160°F)

The first version was done in Sept and the keg has kicked a while ago so comparison to v2 and v3 will have to rely on memory. But v2 and v3 will only be a week apart. Again, i'm aware of the very unscientific approach of this, but sometimes quick & dirty yield results.

I did a similar comparison. 1 smash and a copy of it with the difference being 10% of the pale malt being exchanged for melanoidin. Maybe it was so subtle inn your experiment because the percentage was too small? In mine or was pretty obvious actually, but I used a fairly high percentage of it on purpose.

 

[sixhotdogneck]

Fresh beer straight away out of the cask always contributes to the best flavor.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'm looking for brewing a festbier next weekend. Would you be willing to share your recipe? Thanks!

PM sent.

 

[schematix]

Why are you feeling the urge to keep posting lodo stuff in a thread which said in the introduction that op doesn't want to hear about it?

If somebody asks you NOT to tell him about your work/life balance plans, are you also going to start justifying why working compressed hours is super beneficial?

To be fair the OP edited his original post to add the no-LODO comment....

 

[bierhaus15]

Now I don't know who is using SBT professionally, but I can assure you that if no one was, they would not be making it. Also upon oxidation of these they break down to either sodium and sulfate, or K and sulfate. They are completely undetectable and harmless. Some would argue even RHB compliant due to their nature.. they could be used simply as water salts...

If I can poke the bear one more time... yeah, we already know who's using it. Nigerian breweries making sorghum beer and similar breweries that use very high adjunct %. Not sure how many home brewers want to try and get that "it" flavor found in Chinese brewed Snow lager. Some large US breweries do use it, again mostly downsteam in AAL and malt liquor. I also know of one popular US craft brewery that uses it for flavor stability in bottled beers, although they were the same ones that presented at WBC saying it had a marginal effect when used in the mash and the addition of flavor bound sulfur compounds did not make up for the delay in staling. I am also familiar with Weihenstephaner and VLB, having visited both professionally. Still don't know of any German brewers that would advocate its use.

On a positive note, I do agree with most of the other stuff you said, although that has been the norm for state run German breweries for a while now. Not sure how applicable those processes are to home brewers. Funny that the one thing those same breweries aren't doing is decoction.

 

[Die_Beerery]

If I can poke the bear one more time... yeah, we already know who's using it. Nigerian breweries making sorghum beer and similar breweries that use very high adjunct %. Not sure how many home brewers want to try and get that "it" flavor found in Chinese brewed Snow lager. Some large US breweries do use it, again mostly downsteam in AAL and malt liquor. I also know of one popular US craft brewery that uses it for flavor stability in bottled beers, although they were the same ones that presented at WBC saying it had a marginal effect when used in the mash and the addition of flavor bound sulfur compounds did not make up for the delay in staling. I am also familiar with Weihenstephaner and VLB, having visited both professionally. Still don't know of any German brewers that would advocate its use.

On a positive note, I do agree with most of the other stuff you said, although that has been the norm for state run German breweries for a while now. Not sure how applicable those processes are to home brewers. Funny that the one thing those same breweries aren't doing is decoction.

Don't forget in order for the conditions for it to work you have to start at zero (or close too) water. Otherwise adding the antioxidant to plain ole strike water will immediately use it all up trying to grab the o2 from the water, and not help you much.

Again, our use is a homebrew "hack" to mimic professional conditions. With that said, I don't use any antioxidants. I built a custom one off system, and use N2 and sealed vessels. http://www.********************/brewing-science-and-technology/the-system/

Right on decoction, they are either not doing it or phasing away from it. Paulaner is not decocting anymore, nor is Ayinger, and a few more and W is only on the wheat beers... and since you are in the know, its not a flavor profile, its extract from wheat. I am not sure why everybody thinks that decoction is this magical thing.

Right it has been the norm, but not everyone knows this. They think we came out of left field and made all this stuff up.
Prost

 

[Schlenkerla]

After decoction, he said LODO!

 

[Schlenkerla]

...

 

[TheMadKing]

Screw it... I'm going to make an English Bitter

 

[Schlenkerla]

Screw it... I'm going to make an English Bitter

Using HODO?

 

[Schlenkerla]

You should try an 8th factor, rauch malt.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I will say this thread has inspired me to pick up this book again and read the sections on German and Czech brewing. I think @Jayjay1976 made a comment of BIAB and decoction, it made me recall a book I had on an easy decoction. It's this one.

Like the German purity law Rheinheitsgebote, I recall the Czechs one time had a rule about all or certain beer requires to be made from a decoction mash. It's worth finding that. My rauchbiers that I make supposedly should be made from a double decoction.

I'm no fan of this LODO.... I admit haven't read much about it my 12 years of brewing. I will though to just form a better opinion. That said, I'm thinking of great beer was brewed using historical traditions for centuries. Transferring beer to kegs under pressure verses gravity seems like it's driven partly by CO2 and anxiety.

This LODO thing sounds like the English's CAMRA. My guess CAMRA would declare war on LODO or would they be allies? CAMRA being steeped in tradition and not liking CO2. LODO seems to be a departure from tradition. Hmmmm. My enemy's enemy is my friend. Y/N?

Need to read the book and stop with random thoughts....

 

[cactusgarrett]

Screw it... I'm going to make an English Bitter

You just need to start a thread and state that you DON'T want to discuss the exact topic you DO want to discuss. It will have the best, most pertinent information ever!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Historical German beer was nothing like modern day German beer. Modern German beer is fueled by science and technology. I'm not saying you can't make a good tasting historical style beer. I am however saying, that it will not taste like modern beer.. because modern beer uses different techniques, it's really as simple as that.

Germany has been making "lodo" beer since the 70's (1970's).

The problem with homebrew books, is that they are nothing like the real books. You want to learn about real German brewing you read one of these..
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/books/technology_brewing_and_malting

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/di...MIw5Lrkv7-3gIVCtbACh1FXg79EAQYAiABEgLvdvD_BwE


THOSE are real books. Anyone worth their salt, will have these at the ready.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Historical German beer was nothing like modern day German beer. Modern German beer is fueled by science and technology. I'm not saying you can't make a good tasting historical style beer. I am however saying, that it will not taste like modern beer.. because modern beer uses different techniques, it's really as simple as that.

Germany has been making "lodo" beer since the 70's (1970's).

The problem with homebrew books, is that they are nothing like the real books. You want to learn about real German brewing you read one of these..
https://www.vlb-berlin.org/en/books/technology_brewing_and_malting

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/di...MIw5Lrkv7-3gIVCtbACh1FXg79EAQYAiABEgLvdvD_BwE


THOSE are real books. Anyone worth their salt, will have these at the ready.

Maybe a bad stereotype, I thought that most German breweries were following tradition to a near religious standpoint. The only brewery that I know, or corresponded with, is the owner of is the Schlenkerla in Bamberg. Matthias Trum said he and the Weyermans were following the malting methods that their families have practiced for centuries.

Thanks for the above post of info.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm starting to come around to the whole LODO concept. As much as I would like to dismiss it as newfangled tomfoolery, there is something to be said for constantly striving to improve quality.

It's like, I might cook my grandma's recipes exactly as they were handed down to me but I cook them in my modern kitchen, with modern tools and techniques. Though I may always try to recreate exactly the taste that I remember from my childhood, Grandma's Sauerbraten only got better when I started cooking it in a sous vide.

I wonder what she would have thought about vacuum sealed bags of meat floating in a plastic tub, not to mention using a propane torch in the house!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Maybe a bad stereotype, I thought that most German breweries were following tradition to a near religious standpoint. The only brewery that I know, or corresponded with, is the owner of is the Schlenkerla in Bamberg. Matthias Trum said he and the Weyermans were following the malting methods that their families have practiced for centuries.

Thanks for the above post of info.

It’s a romantic notion. It served it purpose. Now it’s more of a marketing deal. Don’t get my wrong they follow it. With technology and science brought many a cheats. I.e galvanized pipe strategically located in the brewed to pick up zinc, water salts, hop extract, lab propagated yeast oozing with zinc, etc etc.

What I have learned in my German encounters is that there is much more than what meets the eye. Sure Weyermann is decades old, sure they follow age old techniques however they are much like Jayjay and his sousvide. They are follow said techniques with cutting edge technology and science to get not only a better product (malt modification, lower protien, better extract) more product and a more consistent product. Just like the farmers growing the barley for decades, but now with herbicide gps and self driving tractors. [emoji6]

We all want to believe that history was somehow better, it’s nostalgic and cool to learn about. The sad truth is in the case of beer, it wasn’t even close. Take decoction for instance. Decoction was not some beer enhancing product is was brought about out of necessity. They didn’t have thermometers, and had poor grain quality. That’s it. Nothing more nothing less. You could take a volume of grain, heat that to a known consistent temp (boiling) add it back and that would raise the temp of main portion. Easy peasy. Due to science and technology we now have thermometers and can heat in other ways. They studied the beers made with the different methods and found more bad than good and stopped.
In the case of macro beer decoction was stopped again out of necessity. Power consumption and time consumption were probably the biggest factors. Takes a lot of time and energy to heat large volumes to boil and hold them. Much faster to just heat the entire volume and step though. Also the drive to knock out 4-6 batches in a day pretty much stopped it in its tracks. That and modern malt just doesn’t need it anymore.

The real story is that the Japanese really started to pioneer brewing science and technology, and zee Germans were the first to jump on the bandwagon.

The REAL secret to malty German beers is this. Mashing and brewing in the absence of oxygen does a few things. Namely way less color pick up, and it doesn’t oxidize malts (specifically cara, and melanoidan heavy malts). So there for a German pilsner is rarely just pilsner or pils and carafoam. with say a high portion of cara or Munich malts gets super malty yet dry from all the melaoidian in the specialty malt.
Take for instance this beer, which is my pilsner. What do you think the grainbill is?

How about this helles?

 

[Bassman2003]

I'm starting to come around to the whole LODO concept. As much as I would like to dismiss it as newfangled tomfoolery, there is something to be said for constantly striving to improve quality.

It's like, I might cook my grandma's recipes exactly as they were handed down to me but I cook them in my modern kitchen, with modern tools and techniques. Though I may always try to recreate exactly the taste that I remember from my childhood, Grandma's Sauerbraten only got better when I started cooking it in a sous vide.

I wonder what she would have thought about vacuum sealed bags of meat floating in a plastic tub, not to mention using a propane torch in the house!

I am new to it but that way I think of low oxygen brewing is comparing it to an apple. When you slice up an apple and set it out on a table it starts to turn brown in 5-10 minutes. Everybody probably knows this and the effect is oxygen interacting with the apple. Why would this be any different with malted barley and wheat?

As a homebrewer, "grain" was always something I knew was a living product but at the end of the day, it was just something I picked up and threw in the mash water. The bottom line to accepting low oxygen principles is that the grain "stales" wayyyy quicker than most of us ever thought of. Think back to the apple - 5 or 10 minutes. How long is the time from dough in to boil? Not tomfoolery but just a natural process that happens with all food products.

I know the OP stated he did not want to talk about LODO but the answers given up until the point did not really get him very far imho. His brewing practices seem very sound so I brought it up as a fellow brewer, not an evangelist. I do not want to brew with stale apples.