Did the orchard lie to me?

[jsiddall]

I purchased some fresh cider from an orchard in the area and was sure to confirm that no preservatives were added. They claim the cider was pasturized and preservative free.

So I bought 15 liters and a pack of S-04 from the LHBS (a long way from expiration and stored in a fridge), sanitized everything, added some pectic enzyme and yeast energizer and pitched the yeast on the surface per the instructions on the packet.

That was 4 days ago, and today the SG is unchanged @ 1.040. I also stirred and aerated again on the 2nd day.

When I pitched the yeast the cider was cool at 13 C (55 F) but still within the spec of the yeast. I immediately raised the temperature to 20 C (68 F) but still no signs of fermentation. There is a sticky brown "krausen" on the surface but I don't know what that is. It smells somewhat sour:

So... my best guess is the cider was preserved with sorbate despite what they told me. It wasn't cheap ($30) so is there anything I can do to salvage it? Since sorbate doesn't kill yeast but rather blocks reproduction should I just buy some more, perhaps create a starter in some fresh cider without preservatives?

 

[grainbill]

Would being pasteurized have anything to do with it?

 

[jsiddall]

Would being pasteurized have anything to do with it?

No, I have made cider from pasteurized juice before. That is essentially starting with a clean slate (no organisms) and should result in a predictable ferment.

The other concern I now have is that if the cider was not pasteurized then presumably it has all sorts of stuff in it that I never killed off with k-meta. Hmmm...

 

[Leithoa]

Pasteurization shouldn't affect it. That's typically either heat or UV pasteurization.
UV doesn't work as well(mostly 'cause juice is cloudy) so if it's been sitting at room temp for 4 days some wild yeast might have started to multiply.
You can gamble with the wild yeast. You can toss a campden tablet in and repitch, or you can rehydrate and repitch using both wild and dry yeast.

Even put in dry your yeast should be doing something after 96 hours.

 

[grainbill]

jsiddall, Leithoa, good to know, been toying with the idea of doing some cider...

 

[Maylar]

Did you get the orchard to fill your own bottle, or was it bottled already? The label should tell you everything.

 

[jsiddall]

Did you get the orchard to fill your own bottle, or was it bottled already? The label should tell you everything.

No. It was pre-bottled in plastic jugs in a fridge. Apparently they get it pressed off-site somewhere. No ingredients or nutritional info on the label.

 

[chevalcider]

Here's my opinion...based on my limited experience (and none with purchased juice. What I haven't pressed myself has been pressed by others in my presence- and not pasteurized). I think that you have a ferment started. When my ciders start, the first thing to happen is the appearance of that sticky krausen like you have. That progresses to a foam layer about 1-2" thick. The foam stays for about a day and then drops to the bottom. At this point the ferment really starts to roll and I have constant CO2 bubbling to the surface for a few days to a week. I have never fermented with a beer yeast, always the voracious EC 1118 champagne yeast or this year 71B-1122. Last year, the variety I used most often was a slow starter. I had to wait 3-4 days before it would really get going. I think that it is a nutrient issue. I also notice this year that the fermenters that got the bottom of the barrel when filling are a lot faster ferments than the one that got the first juice without as much sediment. I'm convinced that the sediment is nutrient rich on the varieties I am using.

 

[microbiology]

I saw that you are new here too, HI. Is this your first try and fermentation with that yeast or have you managed to do it successfully with other kinds of starting juice? I only ask because maybe the problem is not the juice but some other variable that you need to potentially think about.

I am new here as well and used the same yeast (S04) on my first and second batches without any problem starting up the fermentation. Although I did start the second batch when the basement was a bit cooler and it scarred me how much longer it took to start.

My only suggestion when I look at what you have done would be to consider your starting sugar concentration. Both batches that I have done with that yeast had OG of 1.06 before pitching. Maybe having lots of extra sugar around helps the yeast start off faster... If you read the sticky post (as I did) where the author talks about using S04 he also uses sugar to bump OG to 1.060- 1.065.

Cheers and good luck.

 

[jsiddall]

I saw that you are new here too, HI. Is this your first try and fermentation with that yeast or have you managed to do it successfully with other kinds of starting juice? I only ask because maybe the problem is not the juice but some other variable that you need to potentially think about.

I am new here as well and used the same yeast (S04) on my first and second batches without any problem starting up the fermentation. Although I did start the second batch when the basement was a bit cooler and it scarred me how much longer it took to start.

My only suggestion when I look at what you have done would be to consider your starting sugar concentration. Both batches that I have done with that yeast had OG of 1.06 before pitching. Maybe having lots of extra sugar around helps the yeast start off faster... If you read the sticky post (as I did) where the author talks about using S04 he also uses sugar to bump OG to 1.060- 1.065.

Cheers and good luck.

Thanks! I have read lots here but this is the first time I have needed to post.

This is only my 2nd batch of cider. The first used US-05 and store bought apple juice and turned out great, if not a bit bland. Was hoping that orchard cider and a slightly less attenuating yeast would help the flavor. Sadly this one is nothing like the first in terms of fermentation.

I always understood high SG was harder for yeast, and even read of people who chaptalize after the SG drops a bit to prevent "shocking" the yeast with sugar. The initial SG was somewhat low but I was going to up it with a pound or two of sugar after fermentation was underway. The initial SG of the first batch I made was 1.048 and it fermented out nicely ending at 1.002 (6.1%) with no additional sugar.

At this point I think I will give it one more day to see if chevalcider is right about it just getting started. If I see no activity or change in SG then I will go with Leithoa's idea of k-meta to kill whatever is living in it currently and re-pitch. This time I'd use a wine yeast (EC-1118) made with a starter. That way I will prove the yeast is viable and also eliminate anything wild in there in case the cider was never pasteruized. Also EC-1118 is one of the most resilient yeasts so hopefully if there is sorbate it can ferment through it anyway.

 

[WVMJ]

Your assumption was that the yeast is ok, you need to proof it or make a starter to make sure it is alive and well in a situation like this. If your starter is working and you add it to your cider and it doesnt take off then there may be something in the cider preventing it from working. Did you add anything yourself to this besides yeast? WVMJ

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Your assumption was that the yeast is ok, you need to proof it or make a starter to make sure it is alive and well in a situation like this. If your starter is working and you add it to your cider and it doesnt take off then there may be something in the cider preventing it from working. WVMJ

Bingo. I've used yeast that says "just sprinkle on the surface" And there is ALWAYS a looooong lag time. It once took 4 days, 4 DAYS! For a Vintner's Harvest yeast to start fermenting. I won't sprinkle dry yeast anymore, no matter what the instructions say. I'll ALWAYS rehydrate & proof a dry yeast now. I keep several different yeast strains on hand & the LHBS is only a short drive, so if the yeast doesn't proof well, I can easily proof another quickly & get the fermentation going.
Regards, GF.

 

[jsiddall]

Your assumption was that the yeast is ok, you need to proof it or make a starter to make sure it is alive and well in a situation like this. If your starter is working and you add it to your cider and it doesnt take off then there may be something in the cider preventing it from working. Did you add anything yourself to this besides yeast? WVMJ

I only added pectic enzyme and yeast energizer. I have made dozens of brews without proving yeast before and never had an issue. But your point is valid: it is possible I got a bad batch of yeast and without proving I wouldn't know.

Bingo. I've used yeast that says "just sprinkle on the surface" And there is ALWAYS a looooong lag time. It once took 4 days, 4 DAYS! For a Vintner's Harvest yeast to start fermenting. I won't sprinkle dry yeast anymore, no matter what the instructions say. I'll ALWAYS rehydrate & proof a dry yeast now. I keep several different yeast strains on hand & the LHBS is only a short drive, so if the yeast doesn't proof well, I can easily proof another quickly & get the fermentation going.
Regards, GF.

Point taken... especially with expensive/untested ingredients.

So... to that end I created a starter yesterday afternoon from a quart of no-preservative apple juice sprinkled (LOL) with 1/2 packet of EC1118. Krausen formed within an hour and by this morning SG had dropped from 1.048 to 1.030. Added some more concentrate which brought the SG up to 1.064. I'll let that go until tomorrow morning then add it to the original cider. Hopefully there will be lots of active yeast cells by then.

There is still nothing going on in the original cider and since I don't know what kind of organisms are in there at this point I think I will clean it up with some k-meta this morning, wait until at least tomorrow morning, then add the starter. If the ferment takes off I will assume the yeast was bad. If it slows/stalls I will assume the fresh cider contained sorbate and just keep adding yeast until the darn thing ferments.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

 

[bernardsmith]

Does pectic enzyme and yeast interact in any way that may inhibit the action of one or both? I know that I was taught to add the enzyme 12 or more hours before adding yeast?

 

[gratus fermentatio]

I only added pectic enzyme and yeast energizer. I have made dozens of brews without proving yeast before and never had an issue. But your point is valid: it is possible I got a bad batch of yeast and without proving I wouldn't know.



Point taken... especially with expensive/untested ingredients.

So... to that end I created a starter yesterday afternoon from a quart of no-preservative apple juice sprinkled (LOL) with 1/2 packet of EC1118. Krausen formed within an hour and by this morning SG had dropped from 1.048 to 1.030. Added some more concentrate which brought the SG up to 1.064. I'll let that go until tomorrow morning then add it to the original cider. Hopefully there will be lots of active yeast cells by then.

There is still nothing going on in the original cider and since I don't know what kind of organisms are in there at this point I think I will clean it up with some k-meta this morning, wait until at least tomorrow morning, then add the starter. If the ferment takes off I will assume the yeast was bad. If it slows/stalls I will assume the fresh cider contained sorbate and just keep adding yeast until the darn thing ferments.

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

Sounds reasonable to me, though you should check the SG before sulfiting, just to see if the S-04 actually took off.
Regards, GF.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Does pectic enzyme and yeast interact in any way that may inhibit the action of one or both? I know that I was taught to add the enzyme 12 or more hours before adding yeast?

No, waiting to add pectic enzyme after sulfiting is for the enzyme's effectiveness. The enzyme doesn't perform well in a high sulfite enviromnment.
Regards, GF.

 

[Leithoa]

Originally Posted by bernardsmith View Post
Does pectic enzyme and yeast interact in any way that may inhibit the action of one or both? I know that I was taught to add the enzyme 12 or more hours before adding yeast?
No, waiting to add pectic enzyme after sulfiting is for the enzyme's effectiveness. The enzyme doesn't perform well in a high sulfite enviromnment.

Pectic enzyme not only breaks down pectin but also helps it to flocculate the pectin so this can interfere with yeast in the sense that it will knock the yeast out of suspension, which limits exposure to food.

 

[jsiddall]

Pectic enzyme not only breaks down pectin but also helps it to flocculate the pectin so this can interfere with yeast in the sense that it will knock the yeast out of suspension, which limits exposure to food.

Update: I checked the SG of the cider again today and still no change from 5 days ago. So I added K-meta to attempt to kill anything going on before adding the starter to it tomorrow.

But that raises an interesting question I hadn't considered: should I add more pectic enzyme when I add the starter tomorrow or has the enzyme I added 5 days ago done its job? I did not add any sulfites until today but I am suspicious that the cider contained sorbate. Would the sorbate have any impact on the pectic enzyme?

 

[Leithoa]

As far as I know pectic enzyme does it's job and has dropped out of solution(along with the pectin and other proteins) within 12 and certainly 24 hours.
Since pectinase isn't alive I wouldn't expect sorbate to interfere with its action.

 

[microbiology]

Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

Yep.

I am still curious to see if you started s04 as a starter culture if it would-

1- grow at all. is there something up with it.

2- if it grows nice in a starter would that ferment your troublesome juice.

Since its probably better that you just get some darn cider out of this experiment than your plan definitely sounds like the way to go. But I just can't help but wonder if for some reason the s04 isn't working for some reason besides preservatives.

Maybe you can pick up another gallon of juice and do a little s04 starter experiment afterwords. Cheers man and keep us posted

 

[jsiddall]

Yep.

I am still curious to see if you started s04 as a starter culture if it would-

1- grow at all. is there something up with it.

2- if it grows nice in a starter would that ferment your troublesome juice.

Since its probably better that you just get some darn cider out of this experiment than your plan definitely sounds like the way to go. But I just can't help but wonder if for some reason the s04 isn't working for some reason besides preservatives.

Maybe you can pick up another gallon of juice and do a little s04 starter experiment afterwords. Cheers man and keep us posted

Not a bad idea but I am now all out of juice and I was already out of S-04 since I only bought one packet. I happened to have a quart of juice and half a pack of EC1118 on hand which meant I didn't have to go out and buy anything.

I should know within a day or two whether the cider is fermentable.

 

[jsiddall]

Update: I added K-meta to the cider 2 days ago. Yesterday I added the 1.2 L starter which was fermenting vigorously with its SG down to 1.028 (7.2% ABV) all in about 40 hours since pitching yeast!

About 30 hours later there are some signs of fermentation in the cider (slight bubbling) and a glug out of the airlock every 10 seconds or so. Sadly the SG has dropped just 0.002, now down to 1.038. Even worse, because the SG of the starter was lower than the cider the bulk of that drop is simply due to dilution. That's a bit surprising given there are signs of fermentation now. I though the SG would have shown a significant drop.

Anyway, there certainly seems to be something hostile to yeast in that cider. I am hoping that the ferment will continue despite the slowness but I really have no idea about the lifespan of a yeast cell. I guess I will have to wait and see.

I did pick up some K1-V1116 in case things take a turn for the worse. That yeast seems to be used to restart stuck fermentation. Not sure if sorbate counts as "stuck" though!

Any other tips on making a particularly lively starter? It looks like I may be doing this for a while.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

Any other tips on making a particularly lively starter? It looks like I may be doing this for a while.

A very old post of mine ...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/too-sweet-pinot-noir-338471/index2.html#post4217557
... note that it is written for someone who is having specific trouble with making a type of wine, and who accidentally added sorbate before pitching the yeast... he also added fining agents and had a very high opening gravity - and so my post touches on those issues as well ... but if you stick with it and read through all the lengthy blather and winnow out the parts applicable to your situation; the techniques and method are applicable to your cider - and goes into some detail about making a starter. I talk about using grape juice in the starter as he is making grape wine ... you could go with either store bought apple juice (the type with no sorbates or sulfites) or maybe with welch's 100% white grape juice (commonly found in 64 oz jugs at the supermarket). Make sure to use the energizer especially if using apple juice.

As an aside, it does sound like there is something hostile to the yeast. The main usual suspect would certainly be sorbate.

For what it's worth ...again quoting from an other old post of mine ...

"Potassium Sorbate is not very practical to remove ... although it *can* be done ... ugly ... impractical ... but possible.

Jack Keller notes a method of potassium sorbate removal that involves making a very strong starter of *bread* yeast and adding that to your must ... then, after it’s fermented out it will have consumed the pot sorbate ... rack and re-add a starter made from the (wine) yeast you had intended to use.

Those who have tried it used a starter and then added a teaspoon or two of bakers yeast for three additions, each 8 hours apart to the must to get the removal process started."

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Call the orchard & ask them if they use any preservatives. It's starting to sound like there is sorbate, or some other type of preservative(s) in your juice. There was another post here somewhere in which a guy got some sorbated juice, but was able to overcome this by pitching a MASSIVE starter.
Regards, GF.

EDIT: Found the thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/overcoming-potassium-sorbate-zeiglers-apple-cider-38783/
Regards, GF.

 

[jsiddall]

Thanks for the info. This morning there was some light colored coarse foam on the surface (very different from the dark brown krausen previously) and the airlock is glugging about every 4 seconds now. SG also took a notable drop to 1.030. Looks like a potent starter is a viable remedy for the sorbate issue.

gratus fermentatio: I did call the orchard and asked them before purchasing. They claimed it was preservative free and pasteruized, but I suspect they are clueless. They do not make the cider themselves.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Sounds like it's fermenting away. Hope it turns out good.
Regards, GF.

 

[jsiddall]

It is still fermenting away so looks like this will end well. Thanks for all the advice!

 

[WVMJ]

you are still assuming its sorbated but you never showed your first yeast was viable, just sayin, you dont want to give the orchard a bad rap because your yeast was DOA, maybe get some more cider and proof your yeast first and try again

 

[jsiddall]

you are still assuming its sorbated but you never showed your first yeast was viable, just sayin, you dont want to give the orchard a bad rap because your yeast was DOA, maybe get some more cider and proof your yeast first and try again

Yup, I agree, there is no way to be certain without going back and getting more, and since it is an hours drive I won't be doing that just for the experiment. I have been careful not to name any names so no one has been given a bad rap.

Having said that, all evidence points to there being something unfriendly in that cider. The original yeast was fresh and came straight out of the fridge of a large LHBS, SG was moderate, and nutrients were added to the juice. Later a robust wine yeast starter took a significant hit when added to the cider. So something doesn't add up.

I bough some extra of the original cider to drink and it wasn't anything spectacular. It had a low SG and somewhat weak flavor It had no ingredients list and no nutritional info on the package yet it was priced the same as other fresh ciders I can get at the supermarket which are guaranteed to be preservative free, and somewhat more flavorful also.

So I think from now on I will either go to an orchard that presses their own or stick with the supermarket stuff.

 

[phug]

If they don't press their own, then I think you have the right idea and may as well get it from the store



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[WVMJ]

Are there any cidermills around your area the make their own hard cider, some of these will sell their unfermented cider for you to drink or take home and ferment. If the juice wasnt that impressive to begin with I agree, who cares what was in it or if anything was in it, find something higher quality anyway. WVMJ

 

[jsiddall]

Are there any cidermills around your area the make their own hard cider, some of these will sell their unfermented cider for you to drink or take home and ferment. If the juice wasnt that impressive to begin with I agree, who cares what was in it or if anything was in it, find something higher quality anyway. WVMJ

I have not found any local cider mills but I should spend some more time looking. Almost everything I have found are sweet apples. The staples here are Lobos and Macs. There are a handful of other varieties available depending on where you go, but none are traditional cider apples.

 

[gratus fermentatio]

Very few of us have access to real cider apples/juice. We make cider from the regular apple juice. You could have a look around & ask some friends if they know of anybody who has a crab apple tree, maybe check craigslist. Crabapples are AWESOME in a cider. You can also make a pure crab apple cider/wine if you like. Often people don't use the fruit & will be happy to let you pick it so there will be less rotting on the ground.
Regards, GF.

 

[jsiddall]

Update: this cider did ferment out once I added the starter. Ended at 1.000. Primed and bottled a few to see if they would bottle carbonate.

In the meantime I started another batch made from store bought fresh cider with no preservatives. Pitched rehydrated S-04 from the same LHBS as this batch and it started fermenting right away.