Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
I realize it happens no matter what, but was not aiming at a political discussion so I will assume this was a sociological statement.
Death of the generalist
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I realize it happens no matter what, but was not aiming at a political discussion so I will assume this was a sociological statement.
Michigan_Wolfman
Well-Known Member
Yeah, pretty much a sociological statement. 
I spent my 20's and 30's learning every DIY I could possibly get my hands on. I guess it even goes back to my teens because I rebuilt an Oldmobile 400 big block engine for my first car when I was 16. Now that I'm turning 40, I literally don't have the time to hit all the repairs I need to get done. That's where you start looking at your own earning potential and compare it to the cost of the specialist and decide what cost more. You can't just look at what you'll be charged. There's also the time involved in arranging for quotes, getting screwed on appointments, and the occasional call back for shoddy work. That's all time spent.
I never looked down on people that pay professionals because they were too busy to do it themselves (good thing because I'd be a retroactive hypocrite). I'd like to someday be so financially setup to decide whether I feel like tackling a project or not with neither cost nor time being a factor in that decision. In a way I guess I feel like I've paid my dues in DIY.
I never looked down on people that pay professionals because they were too busy to do it themselves (good thing because I'd be a retroactive hypocrite). I'd like to someday be so financially setup to decide whether I feel like tackling a project or not with neither cost nor time being a factor in that decision. In a way I guess I feel like I've paid my dues in DIY.
Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
On the first point, I so wish I could do this more. I earn as well...more than I ever expected (but have slowly learned I might deserve). I can pay for those things I loath. About 1/2 the time this works out. About 1/2 the time it ends in tragedy as I expect them to shop up on time, do a job and clean up after themselves. If any of those do not happen, have I really gained anything?
No man is an island..very true. I cannot make the gas to go in that car/truck I drive...even if I do work at the refinery. I have no intention of growing the barley and malting it (though I think I could figure the latter out and know how to do the former...badly).
It is AWESOME that the kid across the street is splitting wood. gives a body hope.
You all wouldn't believe how hard it is to find to find younger qualified machinery maintenance folks. Everyone wants a white collar job, not a great paying blue collar job. We have young people with a Masters degree making minimum wage, but its hard to find many who want to get greasy for $40/hr.
I've slapped mud onto sheetrock, rebuilt countless engines, aligned machinery, wired houses, plumbed NG, and wound dozens of torsion springs on garage doors. None of it is that hard, most anyone could do it all. I think folks throw up there hands and wont even try because they think it's too complicated or they don't want to learn a new skill.
Someone mentioned watching YouTube and then being an armchair expert - I'm going to tell you about the last car I worked on. I changed the struts on my daughters Toyota. I was a bit leery on compressing the springs and taking the struts apart.
It was easy
and YouTube helped out immensely...
Dont discount it.
I've slapped mud onto sheetrock, rebuilt countless engines, aligned machinery, wired houses, plumbed NG, and wound dozens of torsion springs on garage doors. None of it is that hard, most anyone could do it all. I think folks throw up there hands and wont even try because they think it's too complicated or they don't want to learn a new skill.
Someone mentioned watching YouTube and then being an armchair expert - I'm going to tell you about the last car I worked on. I changed the struts on my daughters Toyota. I was a bit leery on compressing the springs and taking the struts apart.
It was easy
and YouTube helped out immensely...
Dont discount it.
thunderwagn
Well-Known Member
I don't discount youtube. It's helped me immensely as well, but being a tradesman...by trade 
youtube might get you by, but knowledge and experience make a trade. I've bailed many a customer out who thought they could do something on their own, only to find out they've gotten in over their head, but also made matters worse and more expensive.
youtube might get you by, but knowledge and experience make a trade. I've bailed many a customer out who thought they could do something on their own, only to find out they've gotten in over their head, but also made matters worse and more expensive.
I sometimes even think I have the right tools. Nope, every time I try to fix something I make it worse. But hey, I did fix my leaky shower knob. Took several trips to Home Depot, but probably saved $100. Plus saved some water for the drought.
BadDeacon
Well-Known Member
I guess it all boils down to the general knowledge of your limits and how things work (which most people now don't have). Then making the call if you want to "fix or dealing w it."
I guess a bunch of us now work a job that is button clicking and service oriented and not fulfilling the making things with your own two hands which is why we as Brewers like making our systems and stands and showing them off.[emoji482][emoji482][emoji482]
I guess a bunch of us now work a job that is button clicking and service oriented and not fulfilling the making things with your own two hands which is why we as Brewers like making our systems and stands and showing them off.[emoji482][emoji482][emoji482]
Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
When I worked a job in WA, the Pipe Fitters and Iron Workers Union apprentices...all Polish or Russian. The younger Journeyman...in their 40's so they kind of had no choice.
I remember my guidance counselor 25 years ago. If your SAT's qualified you for a junior college, trades were never discussed.
Do not get m started on MANDITORY organized higher education. I have the required degrees. I learned nothing in college. Self study, on the job training and common sense...these are also my continuing education to this day.
I don't discount youtube. It's helped me immensely as well, but being a tradesman...by trade
Without getting in over my head a few hundred times, I would have never learned anything. The can do attitude is mostly positive even when you pay for the lessons.
I can fix anything. Are there some things that would take longer? Absolutely. I don't know how to weld. If someone took a little time to show me the pitfalls and the tricks to do it right, with some practice, I'd be able to weld with the best of them. I have the knack. I think a lot of us are drawn to this hobby and hobbies like this, because we have the knack. But before we all pat ourselves on the back for being so awesome, remember there also has to be people to do the paperwork. Maybe some of us are paper pushers by choice or by trade, but if I had to do as much paperwork as some people in this world, I would need to not have any guns in my house.
pcbandit
Well-Known Member
I'm 26 and like you feel like my generation as forgotten how to use there hands for anything besides holding phones! It always frustrates me when people act like they have to pay someone to do basic repairs on vehicles or around the house. I find it quite satisfying building things with my hands. I make cast nets when I have some spare time
Hey! I'm YouTube certified! That's saved me, and a lot of things I've worked on, from a lot of greif.
And that proves more that Americans are doing for themselves. I've watched some pro videos on the YouTubes, and I've watched a lot of DIY guys who took the time to film their own projects.
As for not learning in college, man, to this day I take classes related to my own job, and still learn things. Maybe you mean you didn't learn anything related directly to your job in college. I can see that happening. But Shirley you learned something of value?
On that note- votech schools.
And that proves more that Americans are doing for themselves. I've watched some pro videos on the YouTubes, and I've watched a lot of DIY guys who took the time to film their own projects.
As for not learning in college, man, to this day I take classes related to my own job, and still learn things. Maybe you mean you didn't learn anything related directly to your job in college. I can see that happening. But Shirley you learned something of value?
On that note- votech schools.
Oh, and to clarify an earlier post, we are not spraying the soapy water on the single phase. ;p
Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
AMEN! Taught me to stick metal together with 'lectricity. Adult continuing education classes taught to do stained glass.
No, I really learned very little in college outside of business law, consumer behavior and C++. I had a good high school, spent my senior year in a German Gynasium and, as mentioned before, had both parents as educators. I also worked from age 9 on all the way through college. My BS taught me little I had not learned elsewhere before or during college. I still have an unending thirst for knowledge and indulge it as often as possible.
Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
That's not how you look for leaks?
MaddBaggins
cervisiam vitae
I agree. It's even worse when you're a consultant working from home with unlimited work. Every hour you spend on the roof or yard or cars is another $$ you could have earned.
But like all hobbies, DIY is rewarding in a way you can't put a price on. In the USMC, we had these stupid obstacle courses they called Confidence Courses. There was no real tactical usefulness to walking on a beam high above a lake. But doing so instilled a feeling of pride and confidence and invincibility. DIY at home is similar.
Another thing for DADS: when you're raising kids, there's a great ideal that is taught when our kids see pops fixing the plumbing or building a gocart or fixing the car or mending a fence. Especially for boys, it builds the character that I consider crucial in creating men from boys. I'll include daughters here too, though my daughter is not a builder.
100% agree. I'm 29 and feel confident that I could live totally off the grid without another human for help save medical issues.
I know I can do it because I have. I grew up in BFE. Didn't have running water for 2 years, didn't have electricity for 2 years, used an outhouse until I was 16.
We cut our own wood, grew our own food, slaughtered our own meat, remodeled our house, and rarely went to town for anything.
I now work at a nuclear reactor, brew beer, play guitar, rock and mountain climb, teach students, I can weld, program in C++, machine metal and wood, fix electronics, fix mechanical issues, and 1000 other things.
Every single day I'm blown away by the helplessness of my peers. I frequently wonder how most people figure out tying their shoes because if the total lack of sense, and unwillingness to learn new things.
Honestly I think it all comes down to fear. People are afraid of what they don't know, so they never learn it, and the less they know, the more they are afraid. It's a compounding problem. Every day at work people ask me how I learned how to do things and my reply is always the same, "I tried and failed until I didn't."
I know I can do it because I have. I grew up in BFE. Didn't have running water for 2 years, didn't have electricity for 2 years, used an outhouse until I was 16.
We cut our own wood, grew our own food, slaughtered our own meat, remodeled our house, and rarely went to town for anything.
I now work at a nuclear reactor, brew beer, play guitar, rock and mountain climb, teach students, I can weld, program in C++, machine metal and wood, fix electronics, fix mechanical issues, and 1000 other things.
Every single day I'm blown away by the helplessness of my peers. I frequently wonder how most people figure out tying their shoes because if the total lack of sense, and unwillingness to learn new things.
Honestly I think it all comes down to fear. People are afraid of what they don't know, so they never learn it, and the less they know, the more they are afraid. It's a compounding problem. Every day at work people ask me how I learned how to do things and my reply is always the same, "I tried and failed until I didn't."
Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
From watching my mom's small business experience...if you have unlimited work, it means you are not charge nearly enough. It also applies to law of supply and demand. She did not raise her hourly in spite of a more than 6-month backlog of work for almost 10 years straight.MY company is about to piss of my primary "employer" by converting me to a consultant. The "employer" dropped me to 36 hours (at my suggestion) to allow me to work for a different division in a different country. My billable amount goes up 60% my take home 30% (but slightly better benefits) as a consultant. I am not concerned if they will say yes or not.
Need is need.
Well, you can find memory leaks in your PC that way, but first you have to make your own real soap, with lye.
But you don't want to get cold while you make soap, so you'll have to shear a sheep, clean and card the wool, dye it using lichen and other natural plan dyes, spin some yarn, and knit a sweater.
Or if you don't like knitting, tanning hides is good fun... Smelliest thing I've ever done
TX_Brewing
Well-Known Member
In my late 30's, and like many of you I do a lot of my own work. I fix most of the problems on our cars, always do brakes and other typical maintenance issues. I have never had an issue jumping in and fixing problems even on my now former Land Rover and current jag. They are after all just machines. I find it sad that so many people are amazed that I can do these things, and fix items around the house. I agree that we live in a disposable society and way too many people just replace rather than repair items. So here is what I propose, every time we fix something we raise a toast to ourselves, not that I wouldn't anyway.....
BadDeacon
Well-Known Member
Prime example: eye surgeon friend had an alternator go out on a suburban. 20 minutes and he was back in business. Saved him $300. He said 'I could never do that!' I thought: I couldn't take a scalpel to an eye.....
CGVT
Senior Member
I think Zuljin hit on it earlier. When it comes to deciding what projects to do and what to hire out, my main consideration is what is worth more, my time or my money?
Do I want to spend a Saturday morning changing my oil to save $15 bucks in apparent savings over what it cost at the local Jiffy Lube. If it takes me three hours to get the oil and filter, do the job and clean up, dispose of the oil etc etc, did I really save any money? It certainly is not worth it to me.
Of course, there are many jobs that are more than worth the money. It was amazing how handy you becomes when you purchase a house...
Do I want to spend a Saturday morning changing my oil to save $15 bucks in apparent savings over what it cost at the local Jiffy Lube. If it takes me three hours to get the oil and filter, do the job and clean up, dispose of the oil etc etc, did I really save any money? It certainly is not worth it to me.
Of course, there are many jobs that are more than worth the money. It was amazing how handy you becomes when you purchase a house...
This thread got long, I read only the first two pages, but my two cents.
First, being a diy type, we can't view life thru that single lens, it is easy to fall into that. Some people can only do 1-2-3-4, in that order just fine. They know what to do, but not why. So something goes out of order, they can't adjust. There's a whole spectrum of people out there, those that readily adjust and create something new to those that are stopped in their tracks. So maybe part of this is simply inability, even to figure out how to go about and do it. Not to say they can't learn it.
Then, there's the whole continual evolution of our society. No longer are we on farms, laboring away to meet our basic needs, instead we've changed (that's not bad) and are working in other fields. And with that I suppose we lose some of those skills. To the "natural" diy, it seems like a shame, to others its not even a thought. Oh, and finally, maybe its just me, but there's so much information now, specialist might be what is needed.
Now go hire someone and keep this economy rolling along!
Stillraining
Well-Known Member
Deleted see below
There's a difference between a know-it-all fool whose only knowledge comes from watching a youtube video, and someone who uses it as a basis to gain knowledge to do a specific job.
There are certain things that, once I look into how to do them, I realize they are not in my comfort zone. I learned how to reload ammunition entirely from what I found on the internet. You'd better believe I was incredibly careful as I did this, as few things will sharpen your focus than creating small packages that are designed to explode inches from your face.
The same goes for electricity--it can kill you if you're not smart. Plumbing, for the most part, isn't life-and-death unless you manage to allow sewer and potable water lines to cross. But the potential for water damage from foolish plumbing jobs makes it nearly as problematic.
The trick is in knowing when you're not certain and the risk/reward ratio is out of whack. How much does a mistake cost? If the reward isn't enough for the potential cost, it's better to hire it out.
Stillraining
Well-Known Member
Maybe its already been said, too many posts to read.. ...I CANT DO IT !! lol
One reason I can think of is that school and career paths today condition people to "Specialize" as if you don't you are told and maybe rightly so that you will have a tougher time finding employment you want.
That mentality will permeate a persons whole thought process, as if they don't feel specifically trained in something they wont tackle it.
You cant call that lazy. You might call it lack of self confidence at best. Or you might just call it money well spent in their opinion to have a pro do it for them. If you make 100.00 per hour in your vocation why would you remodel your bathroom instead of hiring a contractor for 35.00 ph?...You would be loosing 65.00 ph.
SleepyCreekBrews
Well-Known Member
Ever heard the little phrase? : "I possess a device, in my pocket, that is capable of accessing the entirety of information known to man.
I use it to look at pictures of cats and get in arguments with strangers."
This is why "I can't"
I use it to look at pictures of cats and get in arguments with strangers."
This is why "I can't"
That's me!
MTbrewer99
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Agree with what a lot of others have said. I think I used to do everything I could on my own out of necessity. Even now that I can afford to pay someone else, it's more about pride. I feel pretty confident that I can figure just about anything out on my own. Completing a project is just satisfying to me. I think people today just enjoy convenience. I grew up in a poor family. My father taught me to do things because we couldn't afford anything else. I learned how to be independent and work hard. Those are values I still try to apply every day. I guess that's why I can't manage to call a repairman even to save myself a little time.
Onkel_Udo
Well-Known Member
Your first paragraph defines what I saw in Germany. With a certificate with many stamps on it saying you were qualified to do something, the average German defaulted to "knowing" they couldn't if they did no have that particular cert.
The second one has still never worked out for me. I am a less extreme example of what you described...I make about twice as much as I would spend for mundane repairs to home or car. I use quick oil change places for my truck and DD. I do not mount my own tires.
That said, I have never found a "savings" from having a professions do even a moderately big job around the house outside of having a roof done or a furnace installed. The reason is their unreliability and inability to finish on time and clean up after themselves means I spend more of my valuable time waiting on them. I went through this recently (twice) when helping others' prep their houses for sale...trim guy took 4 days longer than planned so paint guy could not get in on time so he pushed out a couple of weeks to go to other jobs and electrical guy no-showed twice when I took time off work to meet him and let him in the house (In the end, I just did that work), etc, etc.
When I redid my kitchen, I had it gutted, drywall hung and ready for mud and tape. Since I was on a really tight schedule, I hired a company with very good references to get it to primer. They said 3 days so I offered a 10% bonus to be done on time and added that to their standard contract. They finished the morning of day 5 so I had to pull and all-nighter to finish flooring. They also used no system (zip walls) to reduce the amount of drywall dust getting in the rest of the house and did not use the primer spelled out in the contract so I still had to re-prime the one original wall.
The last contractor I hired was a hardwood floor guy. I made it clear that the ONLY window to do the work was 5 days while I was gone to the track and the dogs were at the boarders. I moved all the furniture out of the rooms before I left and re-iterated to him that this was non-negotiable (boarding all my dogs is about $100/day). I returned home to find he had not yet started. I changed the locks, used his machines to do the work myself (the sanding and screening after stain). I called him after and told him the machines would be in my driveway at 6 am the next day so he probably ought to show up to get them...that he showed up for. This one cost me $580 in boarding fees, a twelve hour night getting to second coat of stain, three hours a night for three nights getting the poly (screen, vacuum, wipe down with alcohol, apply) down and $40 a day for buffer to screen between coats. It was a $1500 bid on the job.
Braumeise
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haha! I am German and I realized since living in the US how pathetic a lot of Germans are!
Not sure if it is a generational issue but I find myself constantly saying to people over in Germany: get the words right! If you do not want to do it, if you do not want to attempt, to try and maybe fail, then say "I don't want to", that is perfectly fine, but don't say: I can't because you could, if you wanted!
A lot of people over there have become way to comfortable and stuck in "their ways"
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
I don't know where that belief comes from. Maybe it's from not being taught? Not being encouraged? Not being modeled by someone else? Or someone being told they couldn't do something? That they were incapable? Untalented? Stupid? ...?
Whatever causes someone to not attempt those everyday DIY tasks could simply be laziness or being in a position to not have to do anything for yourself. My worst enemy in the early days of DIY was a fear of failure, or making things worse, or causing serious damage to something or someone (even myself). For me, fear is a preconceived notion of the way something is going to be. And it's somewhat paralyzing. But once I deal with it, it loses its power. Just going ahead with it, not knowing everything, is how I approached most of my home remodeling projects when I started many years ago. Maybe it was a good thing that I didn't know what I was doing, because I also didn't know what I was doing wrong!
Now I watch my early-30s son-in-law/IT guy, who spends all day in front of a computer. He could have written The Weekend DIY-Guy Book; there is almost nothing he is afraid to try around the house. Having never attempted it before, he has done electrical wiring and panel work, hung and finished drywall, plumbing, insulation, framing, installed kitchen cabinets, made and installed trim, lights, heat, venting, poured his own concrete countertops, built furniture, repaired his car, etc.. And he does it pretty well for the little experience that preceded his attempts. Whatever he does, the desire to fulfill a sense of accomplishment trumps the fear of trying.
It's easy to believe what you do; it's harder to do what you believe.
Cheesy_Goodness
Well-Known Member
20 something here living in the burbs. Raised by a family who did damn near everything themselves. Looking back I realize there were a lot of things I wish I had paid more attention to. I was never a natural at most diy projects, but did manage to pick up a thing or too. Combine that with the angst of a teen and you have a recipe for ignorance . I was, however, that kid splitting wood by hand.
We've only been homeowners for 1.5 years (renters before that) but so far I've done all the minor repairs myself with the exception of pressure washing our siding (high up in the back...let someone else deal with that).
If I had to bet, I'd say the disposable attitude is part of it, but isn't as big of a factor as time.
I'm salaried and work in an office job, so finding time to do things like change the oil in my car is a challenge. I can do it without any issue, but there isn't much savings there when just the parts are considered, let alone the time spent. For me, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
For my parent's and grandparent's generation, work was rarely an interfering factor in their home life. You worked from 8-4, Monday-Friday. At the stroke of 4, you left and went home. IME that's becoming less and less common. How many people here still check emails or work on reports after hours? My guess is that it's pretty common.
I have a list of hobbies/trades I keep telling myself I'll get into someday, and it's as long as my arm. I know almost nothing about electrical wiring or how a car works, but until I can find time to try, fail, and retry these things they're going to stay on the list.
. I was, however, that kid splitting wood by hand.We've only been homeowners for 1.5 years (renters before that) but so far I've done all the minor repairs myself with the exception of pressure washing our siding (high up in the back...let someone else deal with that
).If I had to bet, I'd say the disposable attitude is part of it, but isn't as big of a factor as time.
I'm salaried and work in an office job, so finding time to do things like change the oil in my car is a challenge. I can do it without any issue, but there isn't much savings there when just the parts are considered, let alone the time spent. For me, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
For my parent's and grandparent's generation, work was rarely an interfering factor in their home life. You worked from 8-4, Monday-Friday. At the stroke of 4, you left and went home. IME that's becoming less and less common. How many people here still check emails or work on reports after hours? My guess is that it's pretty common.
I have a list of hobbies/trades I keep telling myself I'll get into someday, and it's as long as my arm. I know almost nothing about electrical wiring or how a car works, but until I can find time to try, fail, and retry these things they're going to stay on the list.
I also think there's a huge difference between knowing HOW to do things for yourself/learn new skills and choosing not to, vs not even wanting to learn a new skill.
It's not like there's limited room in your brain, so why not keep learning.
I had to show a 22 year old how vice grips work last week. He had never seen them before.
My boss is unable and unwilling to cook anything ever. "Even Mac and cheese is too much like cooking for me." He eats out every meal of the day.
I had to explain the strategy behind mopping a floor to one of my coworkers so that she didn't mop herself into a corner. This woman makes $45k/year...
Specializing is one thing. Idiocy is another.
It's not like there's limited room in your brain, so why not keep learning.
I had to show a 22 year old how vice grips work last week. He had never seen them before.
My boss is unable and unwilling to cook anything ever. "Even Mac and cheese is too much like cooking for me." He eats out every meal of the day.
I had to explain the strategy behind mopping a floor to one of my coworkers so that she didn't mop herself into a corner. This woman makes $45k/year...
Specializing is one thing. Idiocy is another.
Turkeyshot
Well-Known Member
This above says it all. I have always fixed everything around the house and on cars etc. myself. If I do not own the tools for a specific job I would buy,rent or borrow what I needed. My point being that with all the car repairs, landscaping, sprinkler installation, painting, and anything else that came up, my oldest son learned zero.
He has no interest in becoming skilled at anything, he would rather sit at his computer playing games and let others do things for him. Of course since he has no interest in anything he also works for minimum wage and can barely pay rent, but needs his internet connection. So perfect example of choosing not to learn. I always tried to teach and explain how to get things done, but he always had the 'yeah whatever' attitude. Thankfully my younger one asks all sorts of questions and like to help and learn. :rockin: Sorry but lazy people drive me to the limit.
