I am brewing up a base beer right now. I had to change a few things to go with what I have one hand. I will be pitching a bug blend by the aforementioned Al B; he said this blend would be a good one for a CdT, so I'm going for it. No oak barrel, so I will be going with oak chips soaked in something.
Cuvee de Tomme clone group project
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I just racked my second attempt at a Cuvee Tomme inspired beer onto the cherries. This time around the base beer I used was modeled after Struise Pannepot (a similar beer to the base Cuvee Tomme uses, but with the addition of some light spices cinnamon/coriander/orange/thyme). Hoping the sour cherries give it the acidic kick that my first attempt was missing. For bugs I used some slurry that was originally a mix of Roeselare and Red Poppy dregs, so there are some Lost Abbey bugs in there at least (I also added a few drops of Al's blend, but I'm saving most of it for another batch).
Oldsock,
Glad to see someone else is coming along!
You going to be barrel aging at all? How much cherries/how much beer do you age on fruit? I've heard that if you don't do 1lbs/gal you don't get much of an effect.
De Struise Pannepot is a really good beer, I'd love to see your recipe for that sometime. You should stop by the Homebrewtalk Chat sometime, we've got a good bunch of regulars there a few of which have posted in this thread about being involved.
Glad to see someone else is coming along!
You going to be barrel aging at all? How much cherries/how much beer do you age on fruit? I've heard that if you don't do 1lbs/gal you don't get much of an effect.
De Struise Pannepot is a really good beer, I'd love to see your recipe for that sometime. You should stop by the Homebrewtalk Chat sometime, we've got a good bunch of regulars there a few of which have posted in this thread about being involved.
I'm just under 1 lb per gallon (2 lbs in 2.5 gallons). I've got 2 lbs of the same sour cherries sitting in 4 gallons of Flanders Red and it tastes like sour cherry juice, but for such a big beer i was happy to add a bit higher ratio.
No real barrel aging for me on this one, just heavy toast American cubes that had been sitting in Maker's Mark for a few months. I have some more cubes that have been sitting in bourbon since my last Cuvee Tomme batch (2006) which I may add in a few months if the bourbon character isn't there.
The Pannepot recipe will be going up on my blog tonight with more details/notes etc..., but here is a preview (might need a touch more dark malt to get the color right):
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 16.75
Anticipated OG: 1.096
Anticipated SRM: 22.9
Anticipated IBU: 25.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 74 %
Wort Boil Time: 95 Minutes
Grain/Sugar
---------------
59.7% - 10.00 lbs. French Pilsener
11.9% - 2.00 lbs. German Pilsener
11.9% - 2.00 lbs. Belgian Pilsener
9.0% - 1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Sugar Syrup
3.0% - 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L (Special B would probably be more accurate)
3.0% - 0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.7% - 0.13 lbs. Carafa II
0.4% - 0.06 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt
0.4% - 0.06 lbs. KilnCoffee Malt
Hops
------
2.00 oz. Willamette (Pellet 4.40% AA) @ 45 min. (Bramling Cross in original)
0.50 oz. Czech Saaz (Pellet 3.10% AA) @ 15 min. (Hallertau MF in original)
Extras
--------
0.25 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 10 min.
1.00 Whirlfloc Fining @ 10 min.
3.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 2 min.
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 2 min.
1.00 gm Cinnamon @ 2 min.
1.00 gm Thyme @ 2 min.
Yeast
-----
WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity (T-58 in original)
Mash Schedule
-------------
Sacch Rest 80 min @ 155
Fermentation
-------------
(From the brewer)
1st fermentation is temperature controlled at 75° F, 4 to 5 days max open
2nd fermentation is temperature controlled at +- 62° F, 2 weeks
lagering : 6 weeks
warm room : 1 week
cold ripening : 6 weeks
No real barrel aging for me on this one, just heavy toast American cubes that had been sitting in Maker's Mark for a few months. I have some more cubes that have been sitting in bourbon since my last Cuvee Tomme batch (2006) which I may add in a few months if the bourbon character isn't there.
The Pannepot recipe will be going up on my blog tonight with more details/notes etc..., but here is a preview (might need a touch more dark malt to get the color right):
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 5.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 16.75
Anticipated OG: 1.096
Anticipated SRM: 22.9
Anticipated IBU: 25.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 74 %
Wort Boil Time: 95 Minutes
Grain/Sugar
---------------
59.7% - 10.00 lbs. French Pilsener
11.9% - 2.00 lbs. German Pilsener
11.9% - 2.00 lbs. Belgian Pilsener
9.0% - 1.50 lbs. Dark Candi Sugar Syrup
3.0% - 0.50 lbs. Crystal 120L (Special B would probably be more accurate)
3.0% - 0.50 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.7% - 0.13 lbs. Carafa II
0.4% - 0.06 lbs. Belgian Chocolate Malt
0.4% - 0.06 lbs. KilnCoffee Malt
Hops
------
2.00 oz. Willamette (Pellet 4.40% AA) @ 45 min. (Bramling Cross in original)
0.50 oz. Czech Saaz (Pellet 3.10% AA) @ 15 min. (Hallertau MF in original)
Extras
--------
0.25 tsp Yeast Nutrient @ 10 min.
1.00 Whirlfloc Fining @ 10 min.
3.00 gm Coriander Seed @ 2 min.
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest@ 2 min.
1.00 gm Cinnamon @ 2 min.
1.00 gm Thyme @ 2 min.
Yeast
-----
WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity (T-58 in original)
Mash Schedule
-------------
Sacch Rest 80 min @ 155
Fermentation
-------------
(From the brewer)
1st fermentation is temperature controlled at 75° F, 4 to 5 days max open
2nd fermentation is temperature controlled at +- 62° F, 2 weeks
lagering : 6 weeks
warm room : 1 week
cold ripening : 6 weeks
I did my first real checkup on my CdT thats been in barrels just a few days shy of 3 months, and after 2 weeks of having the cherry concentrate added.
Gravity is at 1.012 which is more or less where it left the conical at, but I added a good third of a quart of cherry juice so there has been some fermentation. The bugs looked like they were just barely starting to spot on the top like they were thinking of a pellicle.
After getting enough for a gravity sample I poured a bit of my topup beer in, which is a about a half gallon of unfermented The Pious combined with some cherry extract and hit with bugs cultured from a Cuvee De Tomme bottle which had done a fair bit of fermenting.
First off, the color and clarity of this beer is absolutely stunning. It is like a brilliant dark ruby with perfect clarity. You can kinda make it out in this picture, the iPhone takes pretty poor low light pictures.
Then I poured it into a small tasting tulip to get an idea of the aromas and flavors.
WOW. WOW WOW!
Ahem, now that is out of the way let me get into describing this in more detail.
In the nose the Belgian and Brett esters are the dominant character, with a little bit of oak and cherry coming in at low levels. There is the faintest hint of acetic.
The typical Westmalle quad character of banana and cocoa are fading and right now there is a pretty awesome balance going on.
On the palate flavors explode into a dazzling teaser of what is to come. Some of the quad character remains, but the oak and come out and play a more dominant role here. A little bit of funk and acetic/lactic come in and tantalize the palate, but only slightly. There is a little bourbon in the finish which then switches back to oaky.
I've enjoyed sipping and savoring this amazing unfinished sample of beer more than most other beers I've ever had. If I didn't know how this beer could get a lot better I would keg it and drink myself stupid. This beer right now is really REALLY good. This is very much a young, not very sour version of Cuvee De Tomme.
I think some time and care, along with maybe a touch more cherry down the road, will get this beer right where I want it.
I really need to get another barrel...
Gravity is at 1.012 which is more or less where it left the conical at, but I added a good third of a quart of cherry juice so there has been some fermentation. The bugs looked like they were just barely starting to spot on the top like they were thinking of a pellicle.
After getting enough for a gravity sample I poured a bit of my topup beer in, which is a about a half gallon of unfermented The Pious combined with some cherry extract and hit with bugs cultured from a Cuvee De Tomme bottle which had done a fair bit of fermenting.
First off, the color and clarity of this beer is absolutely stunning. It is like a brilliant dark ruby with perfect clarity. You can kinda make it out in this picture, the iPhone takes pretty poor low light pictures.
Then I poured it into a small tasting tulip to get an idea of the aromas and flavors.
WOW. WOW WOW!
Ahem, now that is out of the way let me get into describing this in more detail.
In the nose the Belgian and Brett esters are the dominant character, with a little bit of oak and cherry coming in at low levels. There is the faintest hint of acetic.
The typical Westmalle quad character of banana and cocoa are fading and right now there is a pretty awesome balance going on.
On the palate flavors explode into a dazzling teaser of what is to come. Some of the quad character remains, but the oak and come out and play a more dominant role here. A little bit of funk and acetic/lactic come in and tantalize the palate, but only slightly. There is a little bourbon in the finish which then switches back to oaky.
I've enjoyed sipping and savoring this amazing unfinished sample of beer more than most other beers I've ever had. If I didn't know how this beer could get a lot better I would keg it and drink myself stupid. This beer right now is really REALLY good. This is very much a young, not very sour version of Cuvee De Tomme.
I think some time and care, along with maybe a touch more cherry down the road, will get this beer right where I want it.
I really need to get another barrel...
Wow Saq thats looking good! I have made some progress, but now that I have the my new system up on line that can handle brewing 12 gallon Quad batches the barrel will be easier to fill.
I kegged up the first 10 gallons yesterday to sit till the barrel is ready to be filled. I was able to keep the hot alcohols to a minimum by keeping to a strict Temperature control regiment. I started fermentation at 64º and raised the temp 1º a day till I got to 76º and held it there for three weeks. I got it down to 1.014, so it is a little on the dry side.
I brewed up the second batch Sunday and mashed at 160º to try to get some more unfrementable sugars in to the mix. This time I removed the raisins from the boil so I was able to get 12.5 gallons out of the kettle this time. And that is fermenting right now. I plan on top cropping from these batches and brewing more over the next three to four weekends. I plan on pitching one 6.5 gallon batch with a mix of WLP0645 (Belgian sour blend) and the 530 I have running to get the bugs going before they go in the barrel.
Now that I have this figured out, If any one want to contribute to the barrel in SD and learn how to work with a barrel, just let me know. I have room for 33 more gallons.
I kegged up the first 10 gallons yesterday to sit till the barrel is ready to be filled. I was able to keep the hot alcohols to a minimum by keeping to a strict Temperature control regiment. I started fermentation at 64º and raised the temp 1º a day till I got to 76º and held it there for three weeks. I got it down to 1.014, so it is a little on the dry side.
I brewed up the second batch Sunday and mashed at 160º to try to get some more unfrementable sugars in to the mix. This time I removed the raisins from the boil so I was able to get 12.5 gallons out of the kettle this time. And that is fermenting right now. I plan on top cropping from these batches and brewing more over the next three to four weekends. I plan on pitching one 6.5 gallon batch with a mix of WLP0645 (Belgian sour blend) and the 530 I have running to get the bugs going before they go in the barrel.
Now that I have this figured out, If any one want to contribute to the barrel in SD and learn how to work with a barrel, just let me know. I have room for 33 more gallons.
I found one problem with your clone...
... you didn't make enough!!
This beer is so good, I have 10 gallons in the pipeline now, and I plan on putting another 5 gallons in the barrel every 2-3 months until I have 20 gallons of it. Between this beer and my ongoing Flanders Red pipeline (10 gallons every 3-4 months) I should have a pretty good supply of sours.I would like your input on the cherries, since you have used them before. 2# of cherries to 2.5 gallons works out to about 40# in a 53 gallon barrel. One pound of concentrate seems to equal about 4# of cherries, so that would be 4-5 quarts of cherry concentrate in 53 gallons. I was planning on using 7 quarts of cherry concentrate in the 53 gallon barrel. Do you think that is going to be too much? I suppose I can always start with 4 quarts and then add one quart every week or so and keep tasting so I don't overdo it.
I have a question about this too, I would like to pose. I was not planing on adding cherries to the barrel, but was planing on doing the secondary fermentation in the barrel for a year or so, and then removing 10-20 gallons and putting that in to carboys with cherries. Topping of the barrel with new beer, and this way keeping the barrel running for a few years. Is this a bad Idea?
Based on my beers flavors in the "checkup" point I think you want the cherry juice in sooner rather than later to let the bugs eat up it's sugars and get the gravity down and blend the flavors together. A little cherry juice topup down the road will help drop the acidity further and give the bugs a little more to chew on to help finish up.
I found one problem with your clone...
... you didn't make enough!!
I would like your input on the cherries, since you have used them before. 2# of cherries to 2.5 gallons works out to about 40# in a 53 gallon barrel. One pound of concentrate seems to equal about 4# of cherries, so that would be 4-5 quarts of cherry concentrate in 53 gallons. I was planning on using 7 quarts of cherry concentrate in the 53 gallon barrel. Do you think that is going to be too much? I suppose I can always start with 4 quarts and then add one quart every week or so and keep tasting so I don't overdo it.
When you already have 7 carboys and 2 barrels filled with sour beer, it is hard to justify brewing too much of anything.
I've never used the cherry concentrate, but I will caution that the fresh/frozen cherries add quite a bit of water, so they actually serve to lower the alcohol of such a strong beer, while your concentrate will raise it. The water will also dilute the cherry flavor, so I would certainly go easy on the concetrate, you can always add more if needed after it ferments out.
I would worry about leaving the barrel partially filled for months (if that is what you are doing), sounds like you could end up with vinegar if you aren't careful.
That sounds like a fine idea, I added cherries to 4 gallons of Flanders Red after it came out of the barrel. It will just add some time since you will probably want to let the beer sit on the fruit for a few months post-barrel. I am doing a similar solera project starting soon, just did the 5 gallon bug starter for it last weekend, should be interesting.
savnac
Member
I have a Strong Belgian Dubbel that I plan on aging on cherries and oak to come up with something similar to cdt. I bought some Oregon Tart Cherries (see picture), my question is do I drain the water/juice or just dump the whole thing into the fermentor?
Thanks for the help!
Thanks for the help!
savnac
Member
I guess you could drain the cherries, bag & freeze them, then put them in your finished beer. Are you looking to sour your beer? Anyways, if you are over 8% you'll probably have pretty low chances of an infection.
savnac
Member
It's finished and @ 9.5% right now. I was planning on adding the cherries (probably drained) with some bourbon soaked oak cubes and some Orval dregs. Then let it sit for however long it takes to sour up a bit.
Midnight Sun Brewery did a beer that sounds similar to cdt called Lust, it was a Dark Belgian Ale aged in bourbon oak barrels and infused with sour cherries & brettanomyces.
It seems to me that the cherries would be sanitary due to pasteurization and the canning process, so I wasn't planning on freezing them.
Midnight Sun Brewery did a beer that sounds similar to cdt called Lust, it was a Dark Belgian Ale aged in bourbon oak barrels and infused with sour cherries & brettanomyces.
It seems to me that the cherries would be sanitary due to pasteurization and the canning process, so I wasn't planning on freezing them.
Shouldn't you do your secondary Brett. fermentation before adding the cherries? I was of the understanding that the beer should be on the fruit only for a few months. But you secondary Brett fermentation is going to take several months to mature. By then all the cheery flavor might be lost? I don't know I'm just asking.
The barrel is filled to the bung. We will need to rack some out of the barrel back into a keg when we add the concentrate, the keg will then be used for topping off.
I will start with a gallon of concentrate and see how it tastes after a few weeks.
It looks like this weekend I will brew the final two batches to fill up the barrel. I have not added any thing yet, I have a lot of kegs and carboys filled with beer waiting for a home.
my Idea is to inoculate with WLP655 sour blend. I have had good experience with this, an want to keep it simple. I was thinking that for one of the 6.5 gallon carboys I will fill this weekend I will pitch one vial of 655 with the top cropped 530.
my question is should I use two vials,or make a starter of the 655 and pitch that in to one of the 6.5 gallon carboys, or just go directly into the barrel?
my Idea is to inoculate with WLP655 sour blend. I have had good experience with this, an want to keep it simple. I was thinking that for one of the 6.5 gallon carboys I will fill this weekend I will pitch one vial of 655 with the top cropped 530.
my question is should I use two vials,or make a starter of the 655 and pitch that in to one of the 6.5 gallon carboys, or just go directly into the barrel?
When Rodenbach starts a new barrel they add 10% sour beer, so a 5-6 gallon batch is right on target (although for our wine barrel we added 10 gallons of 6 month old sour to get it going). If I was fermenting that batch out normally I would probably add two tubes, but since it is really just a big starter for the barrel, 1 should be fine.
any updates on this project? i'm planning on jumping on this project, albeit a little late. i'd like to hear what's working and what's not working so i can learn from ya'll successes and shortcomings.
Mine is going great! The CdT bugs is acting as a great culture for me to sour stuff with. I'm actually brewing up a base CdT (but with toasted pecans!) to refill the barrel in a few weeks and blend with in a year.
Awesome! Ordered the sour cherry this week for the group barrel, so it's about time to culture up the Cuvee de Tomme dregs and add them to the barrel.
It's good to see everyones beers are moving a long well. My 55 are in the barrel for about 1 month now. I pitched the sour blend into one of the 6 gallon carboys in January, kinda like a starter. I figure Ill let it sit in the barrel for another few months then pull ten gallons out and put that on to cherries.
One thing though I'll never fill a barrel by my self again!
One thing though I'll never fill a barrel by my self again!
I've got my second batch to blend with that I'm about ready to use. It finished pretty high (on purpose) at 1.030, should give the bugs plenty of food to eat
I'm thinking of racking most of whats in my barrel right now into a 6g BB, leaving a bit behind, and filling it up with the new batch.
With whats left over from the new batch (won't be much) I'll probably put that into the 6g BB to help blend it out and tone down the oakiness a little bit and let it finish souring.
I'm thinking of racking most of whats in my barrel right now into a 6g BB, leaving a bit behind, and filling it up with the new batch.
With whats left over from the new batch (won't be much) I'll probably put that into the 6g BB to help blend it out and tone down the oakiness a little bit and let it finish souring.
I racked the contents of my barrel for my first batch of the CdT clone to a 6g BB and racked in the new pecan quad. Didn't get great usable volume on the brewing of the pecan quad so I had to top back up with a little bit of batch1.
After that I poured in my half quart+ of the cherry concentrate and sealed it up. Before racking the pecan quad into the barrel I diverted some into the 6g BB holding batch one for a little bit of food to keep it going.
I took a sample of batch1 and my knees went weak. The fact that I haven't kegged this is a feat of willpower. That and its fairly oaky and needs a little bit of blending from Batch2.
After that I poured in my half quart+ of the cherry concentrate and sealed it up. Before racking the pecan quad into the barrel I diverted some into the 6g BB holding batch one for a little bit of food to keep it going.
I took a sample of batch1 and my knees went weak. The fact that I haven't kegged this is a feat of willpower. That and its fairly oaky and needs a little bit of blending from Batch2.
Kegged my 5 gallon barrel yesterday and threw a 3.5 month old Flanders Red into the barrel. I added 12oz of cherry concentrate, I think I might add more later. It tastes awesome. I was afraid the oak would be overpowering after three months in the barrel, but it isn't, this beer is sooo huge it seems like a perfect balance.
I had a suspicion that my yeast got a little tired, my little checkup on the barrel this morning shows the same gravity after 2weeks as when I put it in. Luckily I made up a giant 5L flask of CdT dregs!
Put a fair amount in both the 6g BB and the barrel to get activity going again. Also managed to keep 5 50ml vials worth for future use
Put a fair amount in both the 6g BB and the barrel to get activity going again. Also managed to keep 5 50ml vials worth for future use
I did a little checking of the barrel yesterday too. I have had this in the barrel for about 2 months now, pitching 6 gallons of beer that had WLP645 sour blend in it for 3months into the full 55gallon barrel. The souring is slowly coming along, but I can see it taking at least 6-9 more months before it starts to get good.
The barrel was a brandy barrel from Lost abbey, they used for their angels share. The brandy flavor though is still coming through really well, but not vary strong.
I'm going to let it be for 6 months now before checking it again, then I'll see about pulling 10 gallons out to put on some Cherries for a month.
The barrel was a brandy barrel from Lost abbey, they used for their angels share. The brandy flavor though is still coming through really well, but not vary strong.
I'm going to let it be for 6 months now before checking it again, then I'll see about pulling 10 gallons out to put on some Cherries for a month.
A good idea might be to get some of those oak spirals and soak em in brandy (or bourbon) for a month or so then toss them in to give a little more wood and spirit flavor since you are dealing with a fairly spent barrel already.
I hope you are going to be doing a solera rotation with such a huge barrel filled and souring, can you really tell me you are going to empty all 55g at once?
I hope you are going to be doing a solera rotation with such a huge barrel filled and souring, can you really tell me you are going to empty all 55g at once?
55 gallons would last a month,I drink a LOT...ha ha
Yes that is the plan to do a solera barrel. I figure I'll brew a 20 gallon batch each year and replace the 15 that I pull out and the 5 that is lost to the gods. I'm hoping I can maintain it for several years.
I kegged my first batch of Cuvee Amore, which is what I'm calling my take on this. Its pretty ****ing awesome. I think I need to start with a lower gravity beer as this bad boy is clocking in around 13% if my calculations are correct.
I also think adding the cherry juice until after the beer is nice and soured is probably a good idea.
I also think adding the cherry juice until after the beer is nice and soured is probably a good idea.
Centexbear
Well-Known Member
So how is it? Pics?
how did everyone's batches turn out? my versionwas HUGE @ 1.108 before adding 10 lbs cherries. FG 1.010 = >14%? HUGE but you can't even tell. the addition of Brett B completely hides the alcohol and adds all sour/tart flavors with no funk at all. oh the things time will do to this batch
Batch 1 is gone and batch 2 is down to about 5 bottles, just enough for NHC.
Brett B isn't going to add any sour characters and isn't going to produce anything close to Cuvee de Tomme. The bacteria that CdT has in it is something else being able to crank out stuff at 10% abv+. I'm not sure you can do a very good attempt at this particular type of beer without some of those dregs.
Brett B isn't going to add any sour characters and isn't going to produce anything close to Cuvee de Tomme. The bacteria that CdT has in it is something else being able to crank out stuff at 10% abv+. I'm not sure you can do a very good attempt at this particular type of beer without some of those dregs.
brett B added all sour w/ zero funk/barnyard as of now. it may not be close to CdT, but since i've never tried it, at this point ignorance is bliss. that's such bologna to tell me you can't make a decent clone without the dregs! i know you've got some good experience brewing sours and whatnot but plz don't be so opinionated in your posts. to say you can't get >10% abv is just silly. my hydrometer doesn't lie
with your experience i didn't imagine you would make such ridiculous statements.this post is not meant to be nasty or confrontational in any way, shape or form (tone on www.world is impossible to judge) so plz don't take it that way. just responding to your post...
