Balancing Sweetness: Cara Malts vs. Higher Mash Temp

[yard_bird]

Greetings all,
I'm curious whether there is a different sweetness between beers that use some percentage of caramel malts (C20-120) vs. beers that use no caramel malts but are mashed at higher temperatures. Is there a perceived difference in anyone's experience? Am I overthinking this? I typically brew dry beers, however, I plan on brewing a bourbon barrel aged pumpkin beer for fall. Initially I thought my German alt recipe + gravity - some IBUs would be a good start but after adding a smidge of the bourbon I plan to use for my barrel aged beer I think it could use a little more substance to balance out tannins/heat from the oak/bourbon. That recipe has about 3-4% caramunich in it and finished around 1.009.

I don't typically use cara malts or mash above 151F, any pointers?

Much appreciated.

 

[AlexKay]

Greetings all,
I'm curious whether there is a different sweetness between beers that use some percentage of caramel malts (C20-120) vs. beers that use no caramel malts but are mashed at higher temperatures. Is there a perceived difference in anyone's experience? Am I overthinking this? I typically brew dry beers, however, I plan on brewing a bourbon barrel aged pumpkin beer for fall. Initially I thought my German alt recipe + gravity - some IBUs would be a good start but after adding a smidge of the bourbon I plan to use for my barrel aged beer I think it could use a little more substance to balance out tannins/heat from the oak/bourbon. That recipe has about 3-4% caramunich in it and finished around 1.009.

I don't typically use cara malts or mash above 151F, any pointers?

Much appreciated.

I don't think the two are really comparable. Higher mash temperatures chop your starch into bigger pieces -- those dextrins are both unfermentable and not very sweet. I don't expect (and have never noticed) enhanced sweetness in a hot-mashed beer. Whereas a heavy hand with the caramel malts will absolutely increase sweetness.

 

[yard_bird]

Interesting, good to know. I’ve historically assumed that unfermentables translates to higher FG and higher sweetness. Like a lot of other areas in this hobby there are a lot of variables at play.

 

[Bobby_M]

Well, there's a reason carapils and carafoam are called "dextrine malts". Generally they contribute more dextrines to the overall sugar makeup at average mash temps. They are relatively flavor neutral.

It is true that running a simple base malt at higher temps will also leave more dextrines (and other polysaccharides like malto-trios and larger chain sugars). Dextrines and malto-trios are sugars that build body/mouthfeel.

Once you get into higher colored cara malts, such as 10L and higher, caramunich, caravienna, etc, there's the associated flavor contribution that goes much further than simple mouthfeel enhancements, though they do that too.

A similar discussion can be had about using lactose. People read a Sweet Stout recipe that says to add 1 pound of lactose into the boil. I mean you can, and it will add a chewy mouthfeel as intended. But some people are really sensitive to the awful flavor that lactose imparts and you could have achieved the same end result with a higher mash temperature.

Flavor (whether sweet or malty) and mouthfeel are two very separate things, but they interact a bit. A fuller mouthfeel can give the drinker an impression of higher sweetness. The more you practice objective tasting of beer you can start picking out the different between these nuanced flavors and sensations. You can have a beer that tastes very malty, but finishes dry. You can have a neutral malt beer that finishes really sweet. Primarily this deals with balance. Higher malt flavors and actual residual sweetness needs to be counterbalanced with hop bitterness, alcohol, roast, or a combination of some or all.

 

[tracer bullet]

I'd tend to follow a recipe you trust. If you desire a little more sweetness form it however, adding some Caramel 40 at a couple percent will works for me. That or around Caramel 60. Both could work in a pumpkin beer, and if they are already on the ingredient list then consider simply adding a little more.

If you go to a LHBS to get your grain, take a pinch of each to sample. I think you'll know pretty fast if that's what you want to do.

Another option is maybe to bump the ABV but otherwise hold your recipe percentages. I always associate higher ABV with more sweetness, all else being equal. It's a reason (I think) I don't care for Imperial IPA's. It works well for an Imperial Stout however, though when I make mine I don't put any lower Lovibond caramel in at all (I add some C120 for the raisiny fruity flavors but stopped putting in C40 because it was an overload of sweetness to my palate).

That said, I hope I'm not the lone weirdo that thinks high ABV = sweet. I'm not sure why that's the case they go together for me.

 

[user 338926]

This is just a personal thing, but if a recipe calls for more than 5% of combined caramel malt, I won't make it. I simply do not like the flavors it imparts into beers when used in large quantity. I think it tends to overpower everything else , and not in a good way . I would much rather raise the mash temperature some if I'm looking for a little residual sugar. Even a little Munich malt or Vienna will tend to finish out with a touch of perceived sweetness. Just don't go overboard with anything. Small changes make big differences.

 

[Red over White]

I'm going to say you need to select your yeast and work backwards from there with mash temps and finally grain bill. It's a simple way of looking at it, but it works.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

A similar discussion can be had about using lactose. People read a Sweet Stout recipe that says to add 1 pound of lactose into the boil. I mean you can, and it will add a chewy mouthfeel as intended. But some people are really sensitive to the awful flavor that lactose imparts and you could have achieved the same end result with a higher mash temperature.

Wait, lactose doesn't add any actual sweetness to a beer? I've only ever had it in commercial "milk stouts", I suppose, and they've usually been on the sweeter side of things, I just assumed that lactose was inherently sweet...

 

[tracer bullet]

This is just a personal thing, but if a recipe calls for more than 5% of combined caramel malt, I won't make it.

You aren't wrong. I will say however that I hated them across the board, but have come around - at least some, that is.

Once I started sampling the different caramel malts and understanding what they tasted like, I certainly appreciated them more. C20, C40, C60, C120 - all very different and appropriate at times (and not appropriate others).

For an IPA, nope, no thanks. For an "ESB like" recipe I might actually be bordering 10%.

 

[Bobby_M]

That said, I hope I'm not the lone weirdo that thinks high ABV = sweet. I'm not sure why that's the case they go together for me.

It's not that uncommon. Imperial stouts, double IPAs, barleywine, etc.. They're all pretty sweet to counteract the solventy effects of ethanol. Only Belgians really cut dry for me, Quads and Trips are hardly sweet.

 

[tracer bullet]

Only Belgians really cut dry for me, Quads and Trips are hardly sweet.

I'll have to try them again. I swore them off but that was a decade ago and my tastes have changed. Didn't like Imperial Stouts much then either, would rather just have two glasses of "normal" stout instead. Hmmm.

 

[Bobby_M]

Wait, lactose doesn't add any actual sweetness to a beer? I've only ever had it in commercial "milk stouts", I suppose, and they've usually been on the sweeter side of things, I just assumed that lactose was inherently sweet...

Lactose is only slightly sweet. Sure, it's used in beers that are also sweet, but it's not the reason.

 

[user 338926]

I'll have to try them again. I swore them off but that was a decade ago and my tastes have changed. Didn't like Imperial Stouts much then either, would rather just have two glasses of "normal" stout instead. Hmmm.

As I get older I simply don't want these high gravity beers. I've made many of them and even made really good ones. I like them, they just don't like me. I just made a Morebeer sweet Stout that turned out at 5.8%. I suppose most people would think it self-evident that a recipe whose name is "sweet stout" would be, duh, sweet. Lol. I bought it thinking sweet means not really dry. But no, it's kind of sweet . At least in its youth, it's a little more than I was expecting. But it does seem to be coming around. If I need to let it sit for a year, then so be it.

The other night I went out to eat and I was drinking Guinness on Nitro. 4.0%, dry and simply a Transcendent Blended beer. There's a reason it is the defacto standard by which everything else dark is measured. I came home and tried blending my sweet Stout with my Scottish ale in order to somewhat replicate what they were doing, but I'll just say it fell short.

 

[user 338926]

Lactose is only slightly sweet. Sure, it's used in beers that are also sweet, but it's not the reason.

This Morebeer Sweet Stout recipe that I just made had a full pound of lactose as a late addition for each 5 gallon batch. I was talking with one of the truck drivers who came into work today, he's also a brewer, and he mentioned about the kind of artificial mouth feel that it presents. I hadn't noticed it, of course I hadn't tried anything except hydrometer jar samples, but now that it's on tap and I've tried it there is a bit of a greasy tongue feeling with it. It's hard to explain, it's not really offensive but it's there if you think about it. Tonight was the first I've tried it with carbonation from the tap.

I was under the impression the lactose was the sugar that I was tasting, but as time goes by here this beer is becoming slightly drier. I'm taking it from what you're saying above that maybe it's not the source of all the residual sugar. Is it just there for mouthfeel?