Cuvee de Tomme clone group project

[Bsquared]

It looks like for cherries that most people are going to use concentrate? I found these Caned tart Cherries avaliabe. I'm also going to go to my local middle eastern market around the corner and see what they have too.

I'm looking at doing this as a 10gallon batch, I have two corny kegs that don't hold pressure well, that i will use to sour in. Because I'm splitting the batch I might try some thing a little different with one. May be Juice vs Whole cherries? or to do an all brett fermentation with one, and 530 with the other, or 530+dregs of CdT in the primary with no secondary?

What is the time line for adding the cherries? My original impression is that the beer would go in to the oak and on to the cherries at the same time, about 9-12 months after pitching the souring culture? Or will it all go in to the barrel after primary?

I've formulated my base recipe Similar to what saq posted, and am penciling in the first weekend in November for brewing.

Recipe: Cuvee des Tomme-HBT
Style: 18E-Belgian Strong Ale-Belgian Strong Dark Ale

Recipe Overview

Wort Volume Before Boil: 11.89 US gals
Wort Volume After Boil: 11.10 US gals
Volume Transferred: 11.10 US gals
Water Added: 0.00 US gals
Volume At Pitching: 11.10 US gals
Final Batch Volume: 10.04 US gals
Expected Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.077 SG
Expected OG: 1.089 SG
Expected FG: 1.016 SG
Expected ABV: 9.8 %
Expected ABW: 7.7 %
Expected IBU (using Tinseth): 28.0
Expected Color: 17.0 SRM
Apparent Attenuation: 80.7 %
Mash Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Duration: 60.0 mins
Fermentation Temperature: 64 degF

Fermentables
Belgian Pale Malt 11lb 0oz (29.7 %) In Mash/Steeped
Belgian Pilsen Malt 11lb 0oz (29.7 %) In Mash/Steeped
US Red Wheat Malt 5lb 0oz (13.5 %) In Mash/Steeped
Belgian CaraPilsner Malt 3lb 0oz (8.1 %) In Mash/Steeped
Belgian Aromatic Malt 3lb 0oz (8.1 %) In Mash/Steeped
Belgian Biscuit Malt 2lb 0oz (5.4 %) In Mash/Steeped
Belgian Chocolate Malt 8.00 oz (1.4 %) In Mash/Steeped
Sugar - Turbinado 1lb 8oz (4.1 %) Start Of Boil

Hops
German Hallertauer Magnum (11.0 % alpha) 2.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops used 60 Min From End
German Hallertauer Mittlefruh (5.0 % alpha) 1.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops used At turn off

Other Ingredients
Raisins 16.00 oz used In Boil

Yeast: White Labs WLP530-Abbey Ale

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name:HERMS
Step: Rest at 130 degF for 5 mins
Step: Raise by direct heating to 148 degF for 15 mins
Step: Rest at 148 degF for 30 mins
Step: Raise to and Mash out at 165 degF for 20 mins

Recipe Notes
Secondary on house Souring culture, add Cherries and oak @ 9-12months

 

[KopyKat]

Eric,

Here is what I have worked out as what works as percentages converted to lbs. This would be adjusted to each system but in my system this is a 70% efficiency and a 2 hour boil. I did adjust my efficiency down to account for the high gravity of the brew. I have never brewed anything over 1.065 and in that case I use 75%. Am I thinking correctly that I would need to adjust down for this or should I get the same 75% as in my other batches?

Let me know if this looks correct.

11 lbs 14.4 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 66.00 %
1 lbs 1.3 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
1 lbs 1.3 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
1 lbs 1.3 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
1 lbs 1.3 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 6.00 %
5.8 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
5.8 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.00 %
8.7 oz Raisins (300.0 SRM) Sugar 3.00 %
8.7 oz Sugar, Pure Cane (1.0 SRM) Sugar 3.00 %

 

[Saccharomyces]

If this goes well maybe we can get it written up in something like BYO

Chris Colby is a Zealot so this is quite likely to happen anyway, I bet. I will mention it next time I see him.

Hopefully we will have the barrel by the Zealots Christmas party which is at Corey's house. The barrel is being hosted there... it would be cool to get pics of everyone posing with the barrel!

 

[Saccharomyces]

Here is what I have worked out as what works as percentages converted to lbs. This would be adjusted to each system but in my system this is a 70% efficiency and a 2 hour boil. I did adjust my efficiency down to account for the high gravity of the brew. I have never brewed anything over 1.065 and in that case I use 75%. Am I thinking correctly that I would need to adjust down for this or should I get the same 75% as in my other batches?

Looks good to me, that is what I have as well. I'm planning on 70% efficiency also, last few batches I have done up at this high of a gravity end up around there when doing 5 gallons. With 10 gallon batches my equipment does a lot better since I am using a Coleman Xtreme 70, the grain bed isn't very deep even for 5 gallons of big beer.

 

[KopyKat]

Hopefully we will have the barrel by the Zealots Christmas party which is at Corey's house. The barrel is being hosted there... it would be cool to get pics of everyone posing with the barrel!

Oh yea, I will be sure to wear my low cut sequin dress and blonde dreadlock wig for that pic. Corey and Kerry will be wearing kilts with nothing underneath that we can pull up for the shot as well. :rockin:

 

[Saccharomyces]

It looks like for cherries that most people are going to use concentrate? I found these Caned tart Cherries avaliabe. I'm also going to go to my local middle eastern market around the corner and see what they have too.

If you are aging in carboy whole fruit will work fine, I'm going with concentrate because I don't want to deal with fruit in the barrel.

My guess is that waiting to add the cherries is going to allow it to get really sour, since there will be more time with the bugs to work before the ABV is boosted over 10% which will really slow them down. Cherries will also drive down the pH which will have a slowing effect on the bugs as well. I think saq and I both are going for something puckeringly sour.

I'm planning two batches, one for the big barrel and one for my two 5 gallon barrels. For my private batch I am thinking about using Brett L. as the primary strain in one barrel and Roeselare blend as primary in the other barrel.

 

[Bsquared]

Thanks Sacch, I will worry about the Cherries in the summer, hopefully by then I can source some fresh ones.

I have a good running culture of WLP655, I think I will build up a good pitch for the secondary and get some strong souring going before the ABV and acidity knock down the bugs activity, hopefully strength in numbers can overcome the harsh environment of this beer.

 

[ragweed]

Just bought the grains for this one yesterday, looking forward to trying this one. Thanks for the push

 

[Bsquared]

Any San Diego (or in the area)brewers want to contribute to a CdT barrel? I have a line on a 52 gallon Oak Bourbon barrel. I will be willing to house the barrel in my fermentation room, that is held at 68ºF year round. Hopefully I will get the barrel Tomorrow, I'm just looking for people to help me fill it. PM me if you want to help, I think we should just need 5 ten gallon batches to fill it. 40 gallons in the barrel, and five to ten more to top it off over the year.

Any takers? or am I filling this solo?

 

[Bsquared]

Found out that it is a barrel from Port/Lost abbey, I'm picking up one or two Monday. Stoked!

 

[saq]

Wow! Lucky dog. Find out what beer they ran through it? I'm surprised they advertise it as a bourbon oak barrel, maybe its surplus. See what info you can get out of them esp if Tomme is there

 

[juvinious]

Tomme is a cool dude. He toughed out the BBF all alone serving at the Lost Abbey booth... which was hard to get to.

 

[Bsquared]

I was quite surprised to find the add Used Oak Bourbon Barrels...The person I was emailing with said they were filled with beer, and are all Brett free. They have 25, so my plan is to tell them what I'm going to try to do with it, and see if they will point me to the Barrel that will be the best for a CdT clone.

In a few weeks too, during San Diego beer week, I'm going to a dinner featuring Lost abbey that Tomme Arthur will be at, may be I can pick his brain then

 

[saq]

My lovely Balcones Distillery barrel arrived today, smelled like heaven! In went the quad I brewed 2 weeks ago along with a portion of my "funky bunch" my house sour culture that has dregs from Consecration, Rodenbach Grand Cru, Oude Beersel Kriek, Cantillon Kriek, Old Odense and also a vial of WLP655. The jar was about 2 months old and smelled VERY lambicy. I have a good feeling about this culture, going to have to propogate up some more!

What would this post be without pics? Not very good, here is one!

 

[ragweed]

My lovely Balcones Distillery barrel arrived today, smelled like heaven! In went the quad I brewed 2 weeks ago along with a portion of my "funky bunch" my house sour culture that has dregs from Consecration, Rodenbach Grand Cru, Oude Beersel Kriek, Cantillon Kriek, Old Odense and also a vial of WLP655. The jar was about 2 months old and smelled VERY lambicy. I have a good feeling about this culture, going to have to propogate up some more!

What would this post be without pics? Not very good, here is one!

That is a beautiful sight, can't wait for the group buy on these to be available. Did you do anything to the barrel before putting the beer in?

 

[Saccharomyces]

Got our Jack Daniel's barrel for the group brew here from the brewpub last night. Corey is going to roll the barrel around with some Bourbon in it every weekend until we fill it in December. Should be a good workout, especially when it's time to fill

 

[Bsquared]

Went out to Lost Abbey this afternoon and picked up the Barrel. I think I got a little tipsy from the fumes coming out of the Barrel, it smelled so good on the long drive back from San Marcos. It has been filled one time and was not used for extensive aging, and should have quite a bit of flavor left in it.

I was told good luck with a big smile when I told them my plans for the barrel.

Now, to figure out how to fill the dam thing!

 

[Bsquared]

So I got a Brandy Barrel! oops, I thought I said I wanted a Bourbon barrel, but did not inspect the barrel too much. I guess I was a little preoccupied looking at the barrels of beer conditioning in the back of the warehouse to notice.

I still think its a score, and am going for it.

This barrel was filled once with the "Angels share" brewed in May 2008, filled in June 2008. released June 6th 2009 from 10am-5pm

The 2009 release of Angel’s Share (Bourbon) will be made available this day.

The beer will be available in 375ml bottles; $15 per bottle. Customers are limited to a six bottle maximum.

Additionally, a limited supply of the 2009 Angel’s Share (Brandy) will also be made available. Like the Bourbon release, this beer will be available in 375ml bottles only; $15 per bottle and limited to six bottles per customer.

This is a brewery-only release. The 375ml bottles of Angel’s Share will not be available through Port Brewing and The Lost Abbey’s normal distribution channels.

 

[saq]

Brandy barrel? My local club is looking to get 2x 55g barrels for a 140 gallon old ale project and we REALLY want brandy. You got a hookup?

 

[Bsquared]

I don't know how many they have of the Brandy, the Angels share Brandy was an even more limited release than the Bourbon.

Contact Lost abbey, and see if they will put two of the brandy aside for you and I will pick them up, at $25 a piece its a steel. I'm not sure how to get them to Tucson, but I'm sure some thing can be worked out.

 

[saq]

Hmm, I'm not sure how much Brandy flavor will be left in the barrel after having a beer age in it for a year. Thats generally when my buddies say a barrel trasitions from a flavored barrel to a neutral barrel.

 

[Bsquared]

Hmm, I'm not sure how much Brandy flavor will be left in the barrel after having a beer age in it for a year. Thats generally when my buddies say a barrel trasitions from a flavored barrel to a neutral barrel.

From the smell of the Barrel, I think it might have some flavor left in it, but I might get some nice brandy and roll it around in the barrel.

I was at lost abbey yesterday, and got a chance to talk to Tomme briefly about this, He was vary nice and recommended propagating a large pitch from the dregs of a CdT to pitch into the barrel. I bought a two bottles and will pop one in a month or so when I start the first 25 Gallon batch.

 

[saq]

It looks like my barrel is starting to get a small pellicle formed on top of the wort! Yay! I'm going to be making some starter wort sometime soon to top up my house funky bunch culture and pitch more in.
Anyone else have their beer in the barrel souring away yet?

 

[Bsquared]

T-minus 3 weeks till primary fermentation.I have to put in the order for 100lb of Belgian Pale and Pils, that should be available Dec 1st. I should start souring in January.

 

[Bsquared]

This weekend we popped a bottle of the 2008 release at a dinner party, along with quite a few other great beers, and I was a little taken back to how the color of the CdT had changed, compared to what the SRM's of the Judgment day base beer is. I've only had the CdT a few times and it was out with friends at a bar, and I did not examen the vintage of the bottle, or take note of the SRM's of the beer then, so I don't know if this is a vintage specific change or the way this beer changes after aging, blending, or aging and blending.

Any one have any idea about this? I'm thinking of starting a triple I have now souring to blend with the barrel when its ready.

I can say that everyone who got a chance to taste the CdT, was blown away.

 

[saq]

Cuvee De Tomme has pretty significant differences between vintages. Don't get too hung up on the color at all. Sticking with pure quad as the base is the best way forward IMO.
When I did the Westvleteren 12 clone comp one of the judges brought his own CdT inspired homebrew minus the bourbon as he didn't care for that aspect and it was incredible. It was his own quad recipe that looks kind of like a mashup between judgement day, westy traditional and westy new world as he described it. I think blending with a trippel is really going to ruin the already subtle quad base of the beer.

 

[Saccharomyces]

It would not surprise me at all if the SRM lightens considerably during the extended brett fermentation, as the brett breaks down stuff that wouldn't be fermented in the base beer.

I'm with saq, I would roll with 100% quad as the base, otherwise it will not be a CdT clone it will end up being a soured tripel...

 

[Bsquared]

That sounds good, I'll stick with the quad recipe. Thats a good point about the extended Brett fermentation changing the color. I'll have to compare my soured brown ale, with my non-soured brown ale to see if there is a SRM difference.

I'll be putting in my bulk order at the HBM today or tomorrow for delivery in the first week in December. Also I'm going to convert my new 70QT cooler this weekend and try out a 36lb grain bill in it, so I should start filling the barrel after Jan 1st if all goes well.

Thanks for the help.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I would be wary of using a culture made of just random dregs. From my experience, a lot of time the acetobacter found in some sours can end up dominating and you can get a really vinegary profile that is not desirable at all. Have you read the Burgandian Babble Belt forum at all? They know more about sours over there than any other place on the internet. I would read up on what people are doing. Look for posts by Al B. He is on top of his game and often sends out "bug farms" which are bugs he's cultivated.

I'd just be super cautious of a random bug dumping vat.

Oh, and CdT is heavily blended, so while the barrels might all read the same at the brewery, they're not the same beer at all. Most sours have to be blended to ccome out right.

 

[Saccharomyces]

I'd just be super cautious of a random bug dumping vat.

Thanks for the pointer I'm reading up.... I'm planning on culturing dregs of Consecration 2x1 and Cuvee de Tomme '09 for the big barrel, to pitch along with WL Lambic blend. I'm undecided on whether to culture any brett strains, or pitch any of the WL or WY brett strains, with the Cuvee de Tomme and Consecration strains I probably won't need them.

 

[Bsquared]

I would be wary of using a culture made of just random dregs. From my experience, a lot of time the acetobacter found in some sours can end up dominating and you can get a really vinegary profile that is not desirable at all. Have you read the Burgandian Babble Belt forum at all? They know more about sours over there than any other place on the internet. I would read up on what people are doing. Look for posts by Al B. He is on top of his game and often sends out "bug farms" which are bugs he's cultivated.

I'd just be super cautious of a random bug dumping vat.

Oh, and CdT is heavily blended, so while the barrels might all read the same at the brewery, they're not the same beer at all. Most sours have to be blended to ccome out right.

Thanks, per your suggestion, I have been reading a lot from babble belt recently. and have found it vary helpful with my all Brett beers and the couple sours I have been working on.

A few weeks back, I had the chance to talk to Tomme about this, and he recommended pitching the dregs from his Cuvee, or to use white labs Belgian sour blend. I'm leaning to using the White labs now, because that is what I have had good results from and experience with.

I think I might get a separate 5 gallons going with the Cuvee dregs to see how that goes too.

 

[Bsquared]

I started brewing for the barrel this weekend, but just did one batch because I had to test out the new 70qt mash tun with pumping up the sparge water.

I bought half the grain bill assuming i might be able to brew back to back days and do 25 gallons in the weekend, but Saturday was shot testing and configuring the new mash tun. I measured out 35.5 lb from the total bill, and infused with 11.25 gallons, and added 3 gallons of boiling water at the end to mash out. basically filling the tun to the top!

Good thing it I hit the numbers -3 gravity points so close enough for me. and every thing when smoothly and pumping the sparge water worked vary smooth. (I have been using gravity for the past 5 years).

The bad thing was after separately boiling the raisins in the first runnings, I added them to the main boil...so they swelled and my final batch was 11.5 gallons not 12.5...

Oh well, I will doing one more batch this weekend, and in two weeks from then I'll do the final two back to back, and after I sanitize the barrel I will rack the first round into the barrel with two vials of WL Sour Belgian blend.

 

[Vaughn]

Count me in on this one. I don't have a barrel to fill but i plan on either brewing up another Westy 12 traditional, or just using my starter from Cuvee De Tomme on a 2.5 gal batch of my Westy 12 that is bulk aging.

 

[saq]

I'm cracking open a 375ml of CdT 2009 on this Saturdays brewing of the quad. This quad isn't going to be soured or barrel aged, but I am taking some extras to top up the barrel. You can bet your ass I'm going to be harvesting the yeast.

 

[saq]

Swapped out the 375ml for a 750ml of CdT, and captured the last bit of beer with tons of yeast/sediment in the bottom and put it in a 700ml starter. It's going quite well, I can already smell some esters developing, I hope this is mostly brett...

 

[Vaughn]

Hey saq, how is the starter going along? I opened a bottle of the 750ml CdT for new years and built up a starter as well. Was just curious to see how yours was going?

 

[saq]

Still going slow as usual, starting to smell a little brett-y but still lots of malt sweetness. It's been on the stir plate with the temp set to "2" which gives it probably 75f-80f wort temps. It takes about 4-5 days from a small culture source in 700ml for it to really get going and then another day or so before it peters out.

 

[saq]

My starter smells... oaky. I guess 20-30ml in dregs in a 700ml starter is enough to make a big difference once the maltose ferments out.

I took it off the stirplate as it looked like it was finishing up plus I need to culture up this weekends yeast. I might have to get my other stirplate back from my buddy and put this small one on it.

I topped up my barrel today with some more or less raw wort that had a good amount of cherry concentrate in it. It also had some of the CdT bugs in it, but they probably had barely gotten going at this point. I put some fermcap in because I was adding quite a bit of new sugar to the barrel to give everything more food to work with. Anything in there would have to be going slow as the beer is at least 11% at this point if not stronger, so I probably wont have to worry about overflow.

I had a little tiny bit of cherry juice left in the bottle so I put it in my CdT starter to give it some more sugar to work with

How is everyone elses CdT going? Has anyone else brewed the base beer or even gotten it in the barrel yet?

 

[juvinious]

Haven't yet, probably won't be able to brew the base for another 2 months. I'll be throwing another beer into the barrel in the meantime.

 

[Saccharomyces]

The plan is to fill the Jack Daniels club barrel on the 16th. I think we have enough kegs for the barrel that I can toss half of my batch in one of my 5 gal barrels and sour it up. Woot!